"Police: Woman killed man who fired AR-15-style rifle into party crowd

[Twilight Hue]

If the crazed gunman had been wearing body armor, then nobody might have been able to stop the gunman (*armed*) with his AR-15 from massacring most persons in the entire party of 40 people. No civilian has any legitimate business to conduct with an AR-15 rifle,

Only if your one of the crowd that hopelessly and helplessly can't tell the difference between a designer AR15 "style" and the real genuine article.

You have a point though in terms of body armor. At least for the protected areas anyways.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Was the off duty police officer able to shoot the gunman's head?

That depends on any combat experience and muscle memory when the adrenaline kicks in.

Of course there are alternatives that body armor can't defend against. Like non lethal technology like this....

 

[Kenny]

Might as well turn all schools into military academys.

Instill a sense of discipline and responsibility.

Now that you mention it, some sort of military discipline (minus marching with guns) would be a great character and discipline building.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

No. But I was a competitive shooter.
So I'm familiar with what guns can do.

Which is different from an active shooter situation, right? Different chemical and psychological responses and more movement and less targets you want to avoid (stray kids and elderly folks).

And yet...civilians use guns successfully
in self defense regularly.
As for your role playing...I've no idea how
indicative that is of results in an actual
assault scenario.

I'm not sure about regularly, but I also know the gun is more likely to be used for self harm or non-defensive violence than self-defense.

In a role playing situation?
Or is this in documented real world shootings?

Yes, it is ALICE Training I had, and is based on data from active shooting situations and is also used by law enforcement: Active Shooter Training | Preparedness Solutions & Training for Active Shooter Events - ALICE Training

 

[Guitar's Cry]

And as I said I may have missed it.

So in your opinion you think its best to leave teachers unarmed even though shoooters(no matter if guns are legal or illegal) target schools, leaving the kids and teachers vulnerable to the shooter until they can call someone with a gun to come save them, even though it could be quite a while before they can.

Yes. Despite these cases, schools are still far safer than other places, and once you introduce guns into that environment, a whole host of dangers present themselves. I do think active shooter training is helpful, though, since it does empower teachers and students to manage dangerous situations.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I will leave it with this. We all think we have valid arguements for what we think, accept or believe. That doesn't make any of us right or wrong.

The truth is sometimes in the middle.

For the record, I am not against gun ownership, or even carry for self-defense (especially for disabled or elderly folk who may struggle physically), however I think it should be regulated.

For instance, if you want to carry for self-defense, maybe you need training in first aid, deescalation techniques, and non-lethal self-defense, and undergo a more extensive background check.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm a bit tired at the moment. But. I've never been against the requirement of gun safes/storage.

That won't do...merely not being against it.
I need enthusiastic approval...toss me a bone here!

My preference is testing, licensing and insuring like a motor vehicle.

I can live with that.

Edit: I'm not for the removal of gun rights. Or even amending the 2nd. But I do want something done, that will actually work. I'm for intensive background checks, training, and routine testing/range competency, licensing, etc.

I've spent much time on ranges that were a very
disciplined environment. I cringe seeing how
gun owners who lack that experience conduct
themselves. I'm compelled to advise them on
safer conduct.

I'm tired too...even after a nite's sleep, coming
back to this issue is fatiguing. So I was pleased
to see your pleasant post.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not sure about regularly, but I also know the gun is more likely to be used for self harm or non-defensive violence than self-defense.

"Know" or "believe"?
Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun | Office of Justice Programs

Yes, it is ALICE Training I had, and is based on data from active shooting situations and is also used by law enforcement: Active Shooter Training | Preparedness Solutions & Training for Active Shooter Events - ALICE Training

Simulations have some value, but real world data
are better. A problem is that sources one would
expect to have an agenda pro or con gun rights
typically have research results supporting the
expected conclusion, eg, Gary Kleck vs Harvard.

One thing is clear...it, that guns are often used
for good, & often used for evil. Given that in our
culture & legal environment, guns won't be
eliminated, the issues are about curbing the
evil usage, & keeping the good.

 

[F1fan]

Black? Really? Can you have a coherent conversation without bringing up race or a party?

No, just pointing out a fact of policing of questionable police killing of black people, Tamir Rice being a prime example. And just after George Flyod's death 2 years ago, which 4 police officers are guilty of murder. And I can understand why conservatives want to avoid the facts of our social ills that they don't want to solve. Just more guns.

"Get an alarm system" Thats a great idea. Banks and other business's should get an alarm systems. It would stop them from being robbed. Oh wait lol

Right, just as funny as police and good guys with guns don't stop the vast majority of mass shootings or robberies. Just so funny.

You think its ok for Billy Bob who grew up as a pig farmer and decided to become a cop to use any weapon his department gives him.

If Billy bob is trained and shows proficiency and has the mental health capable of doing the job. No doubt we need reform in how policing is done. Do you want to talk about that now? Do conservatives support proper police training, and screenings so the only the best are in this important job?

But you want to disarm Steve who is a retired sergeant major with 20 years of service.
That makes sense to you for some reason.

Strawman claim. I never claimed this. Actually I wouldn't;t have a problem with retired or off duty police to carry guns if they chose to. My concern is teenagers getting dangerous weapons because the laws allow them access, not adequate screening or training. The last two mass shootings were by 18 year olds who got dangerous guns without proper screening or training. That just doesn't work for a society on edge.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Guns will always be around whether legal or illegal.
A gun in the wrong hands is deadly, however a gun in the right hands saves lives.

No it just targets who is killed.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes. Despite these cases, schools are still far safer than other places, and once you introduce guns into that environment, a whole host of dangers present themselves. I do think active shooter training is helpful, though, since it does empower teachers and students to manage dangerous situations.

It brings to memory all that nucular and air attack training in grade school teachers and students went through.

In reality, nobody really leaves in an orderly fashion.

Let's just say most will just engage in sheer pandemonium and panic tactics more than anything else.

In order for the drills to be at best remotely effective, it has to be done on a regular and frequent basis to develop muscle memory when the brain goes haywire in a lethal environment.
.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No it just targets who is killed.

Hopefully it will be the bad people.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, just pointing out a fact of policing of questionable police killing of black people....

You'd never know it from mainstream media reporting,
but cops shoot more whites than blacks (in total numbers).
People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2022 | Statista
Perhaps that's why there's too little call for policing reform
from white folk...it's just a problem for blacks. Whites are
apparently unaware that they're killed & abused by bad
cops too. Check out Daniel Shaver's execution.

As for discrimination, there's a bigger discrepancy than
blacks being disproportionately shot by cops...95% of
people shot by cops are male.

What a shame it would be if police reform amounted to
no more improvement than blacks being shot at the
same rate as whites. That would still be unacceptable.
Policing needs a complete overhaul at all levels.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You'd never know it from mainstream media reporting,
but cops shoot more whites than blacks (in total numbers).
People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2022 | Statista
Perhaps that's why there's too little call for policing reform
from white folk...it's just a problem for blacks. Whites are
apparently unaware that they're killed & abused by bad
cops too. Check out Daniel Shaver's execution.


As for discrimination, there's a bigger discrepancy than
blacks being disproportionately shot by cops...95% of
people shot by cops are male.

What a shame it would be if police reform amounted to
no more improvement than blacks being shot at the
same rate as whites. That would still be unacceptable.
Policing needs a complete overhaul at all levels.

The first thing police do is draw a weapon
It should be a last resort not the first.

In the UK most officers are not armed. If a situation escalates they can call in fire arm officers.
Most of the time that is all that is necessary.

If an officer is shot or shoots someone it becomes a rare major news event.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

It brings to memory all that nucular and air attack training in grade school teachers and students went through.

In reality, nobody really leaves in an orderly fashion.

Let's just say most will just engage in sheer pandemonium and panic tactics more than anything else.

In order for the drills to be at best remotely effective, it has to be done on a regular and frequent basis to develop muscle memory when the brain goes haywire in a lethal environment.
.

Sure. But you're suggesting arming teachers and militarizing schools. Is that also not going to require training?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

"Know" or "believe"?
Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun | Office of Justice Programs

Tentatively suspect due to data:

Gun Violence Archive

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

Simulations have some value, but real world data
are better. A problem is that sources one would
expect to have an agenda pro or con gun rights
typically have research results supporting the
expected conclusion, eg, Gary Kleck vs Harvard..

ALICE training is built off real world data.

I don't disagree about biased conclusions, but common sensically, it seems that gun defense incidents would have to be very largely higher than gun related violence to sway folks who want to limit guns.

One thing is clear...it, that guns are often used
for good, & often used for evil. Given that in our
culture & legal environment, guns won't be
eliminated, the issues are about curbing the
evil usage, & keeping the good.

I will agree with this!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Sure. But you're suggesting arming teachers and militarizing schools. Is that also not going to require training?

I never suggested arming teachers or militarization of schools. I was just commenting that if they did, then you ought to go all the way with it.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I never suggested arming teachers or militarization of schools. I was just commenting that if they did, then you ought to go all the way with it.

Fair enough.

 

[F1fan]

You'd never know it from mainstream media reporting,
but cops shoot more whites than blacks (in total numbers).
People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2022 | Statista
Perhaps that's why there's too little call for policing reform
from white folk...it's just a problem for blacks. Whites are
apparently unaware that they're killed & abused by bad
cops too. Check out Daniel Shaver's execution.

You're looking at basic numbers. Do the math on proportion of the population:
As of 2019, here is the current distribution of the U.S. population by race and ethnicity:

• White: 60.1% (Non-Hispanic)
• Hispanic: 18.5%
• Black: 12.2%
• Asian: 5.6%
• Multiple Races: 2.8%
• American Indian/Alaska Native: 0.7%
• Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islander: 0.2%

Dec 28, 2020

Visualizing the U.S. Population by Race
There are more whites by number but look at the percentage of the population being shot by police. Proportionately it's higher that black people are shot.

As for discrimination, there's a bigger discrepancy than
blacks being disproportionately shot by cops...95% of
people shot by cops are male.

Women need to ramp up their violence and criminal tendencies.

What a shame it would be if police reform amounted to
no more improvement than blacks being shot at the
same rate as whites. That would still be unacceptable.
Policing needs a complete overhaul at all levels.

I agree, and that goes along with cultural change. We have the police we do because we as a culture have demanded it that way. The far right with their "replacement theory" nonsense is surely a cultural influence that we've yet to see to it's full depth. This idea suggests brown people are a threat, and this attitude surely influences the policing where that idea is prevalent.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Well done.