Police behavior

[Koldo]

I would hope that when the police came you would stand and engage them respectfully, nonetheless.

Of course.

 

[Curious George]

I find it sad that what Joe is saying is derided as being extremist. I agree with them. I think something in culture changed in recent decades to spread this highly deferential attitude towards the police and something changed with police departments themselves.

We may not know the details as many people have repeatedly stated, but my point is that even when we view rhe facts that we do have in a light most favorable to the police, they still acted inappropriately.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was not giving a highly deferential attitude towards the police. They have a job to do and certain reasonable powers that go with it.

Tell me, have you heard of the h know that call themselves "Sovereign Citizrns"? They are an extremist group that use some of the same phrases and have the same attitude that Joe had. The Southern Law Poverty Center has also labeled them as a hard group.

Yes, I know about them. They're very extreme, like believing that gold fringe on a flag in court means they're under maritine law or whatever and other odd beliefs. Joe's post didn't make me think of them.

 

[Koldo]

She put her child at risk. That was pretty obvious. I think the police screwed up in his they handled this, but she is at least equally at fault for causing the whole scene and not submitting peacefully. As to where else she could have sat, she could have sat almost anywhere but not in the hallway. She had her chance.

I won't let the police off the hook for how they screwed up. If you were fair you would not let her off the hook for her part in this.

Not knowing if she truly had the choice to sit elsewhere I can't really say whether she had her chance. Although I will easily admit that she probably did.

And I don't quite think she put her child at risk. At all. Can you elaborate what risk is this ?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not knowing if she truly had the choice to sit elsewhere I can't really say whether she had her chance. Although I will easily admit that she probably did.

And I don't quite think she put her child at risk. At all. Can you elaborate what risk is this ?

No problem. When she was arrested she resisted arrest. The time to fight an arrest is in court. She tried to use her child as a shield and would not let him go. She was more to blame than the police for any harm that befell the child.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, I know about them. They're very extreme, like believing that gold fringe on a flag in court means they're under maritine law or whatever and other odd beliefs. Joe's post didn't make me think of them.

one of my guilty pleasures is watching YouTube videos involving those people and police. They sound quite a bit as Joe did.

 

[Koldo]

No problem. When she was arrested she resisted arrest. The time to fight an arrest is in court. She tried to use her child as a shield and would not let him go. She was more to blame than the police for any harm that befell the child.

What is the harm that befell the child ?

If anything happened to the child it was due to the cops' incompetence. They tried to pull the child from her arms like idiots. They just had to hold her thumbs and then pull her hands off the child while one cop kept a hold of the child to ensure he wouldn't fall. There were many cops there so this would have been trivial and quick. Or they could have just lifted her off the ground without trying to pull the child from her at that moment. But they preferred to play some form of tug of war...

By the way, I am not even sure if she was using the child as a shield or if she was merely afraid of what would have happened to the child if she let go of him.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What is the harm that befell the child ?

If anything happened to the child it was due to the cops' incompetence. They tried to pull the child from her arms like idiots. They just had to hold her thumbs and then pull her hands off the child while one cop kept a hold of the child to ensure he wouldn't fall. There were many cops there so this would have been trivial and quick. Or they could have just lifted her off the ground without trying to pull the child from her at that moment. But they preferred to play some form of tug of war...

By the way, I am not even sure if she was using the child as a shield or if she was merely afraid of what would have happened to the child if she let go of him.

At least emotional trauma, and once again, when she was arrested that was the time for her to quit. At that point she is just as, if not more guilty, when it comes to what happened to her child. I am not letting the cops off the hook for their incompetence, why are you willing to let her off the hook for her bad behavior that caused all of this?

 

[Koldo]

At least emotional trauma, and once again, when she was arrested that was the time for her to quit. At that point she is just as, if not more guilty, when it comes to what happened to her child. I am not letting the cops off the hook for their incompetence, why are you willing to let her off the hook for her bad behavior that caused all of this?

I wouldn't say I am letting her off the hook. I can't just gauge how much of a bad behavior she had.

 

[averageJOE]

You would be wrong there. She was obstructing a hallway. She had been asked to move several times. She would probably have been charge with "trespassing" at the very least:

"The chaos unfolded after Headley sat on the floor of the office’s crowded waiting room with her son as she awaited a child-care voucher, according to Ferguson.

A security guard told Headley that she had to get up, according to the police statement, but she refused, and office staff called 911 “due to her disorderly conduct towards others, and for obstructing the hallway.”

According to Scott Henchinger, director of policy at Brooklyn Defender Services, the public defender organization representing Headley, the mother had been waiting at the office for four hours without a place to sit. “That’s why she sat on [the] ground,” Henchinger tweeted Monday.

Arriving police officers ordered Headley to leave. When she refused, police said officers arrested her and Headley resisted."


NYPD Investigates 'Troubling' Video Of Cops Ripping 1-Year-Old From Mother’s Arms | HuffPost

From that article it looks like she could be charged with trespassing, refusing to obey a lawful order, and resisting arrest to begin with.

For the record, she was charged with resisting arrest, acting in a manner injurious to a child, obstructing governmental administration and trespassing. ALL those charges were dropped.

All. Of. Them. All the charges were dropped.

She was held in jail for a unrelated warrant. A warrant I might add they didn't know she had until she was already sitting in the police car. So they just lucked out with that.

This was 100% contempt of cop.

This has nothing to do with being pro cop or anti cop. All it is is calling a spade a spade. These cops were in the wrong.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...-police/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.25047b8cca35

 

[Subduction Zone]

For the record, she was charged with resisting arrest, acting in a manner injurious to a child, obstructing governmental administration and trespassing. ALL those charges were dropped.

All. Of. Them. All the charges were dropped.

She was held in jail for a unrelated warrant. A warrant I might add they didn't know she had until she was already sitting in the police car. So they just lucked out with that.

This was 100% contempt of cop.

This has nothing to do with being pro cop or anti cop. All it is is calling a spade a spade. These cops were in the wrong.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...-police/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.25047b8cca35

You did not understand your own source. All of those were valid charges. If you can see your error we can have a discussion. If you are so biased that you cannot there is no point in continuing.

 

[averageJOE]

Or brother, these are the sorts of claims that a "Sovereign Citizen" would make. Guess what happens to them when they try this with cops. It does make for some good YouTube videos.

It's very typical, almost cliche even, to think of people who exercise their rights as sovereign citizens. (I'm a federal employee, btw, who works with police everyday and spent 11 years with the Army Military Police. EVERYTHING I say when dealing with police is the SAME things police tell their family to say when dealing with police.)

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's very typical, almost cliche even, to think of people who exercise their rights as sovereign citizens. (I'm a federal employee, btw, who works with police everyday and spent 11 years with the Army Military Police. EVERYTHING I say when dealing with police is the SAME things police tell their family to say when dealing with police.)

Please, don't give me that nonsense. Can you reason rationally?

 

[Koldo]

You did not understand your own source. All of those were valid charges. If you can see your error we can have a discussion. If you are so biased that you cannot there is no point in continuing.

Did you read that ? She wasn't allowed to sit anywhere at all. Oh man, I should pat myself on the back for thinking this could be the case. She wasn't the one being unreasonable after all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Did you read that ? She wasn't allowed to sit anywhere at all. Oh man, I should pat myself on the back for thinking this could be the case. She wasn't the one being unreasonable after all.

Where does it say that? Quote and source please.

 

[Koldo]

Where does it say that? Quote and source please.

Check the link in post #190. I thought you had read it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Check the link in post #190. I thought you had read it.

That appears to be the claim of the woman that shot the video. You are jumping to conclusions.

Meanwhile all of the charges against her were valid. The reason that she was released was that the District Attorney thought that she had already suffered enough from the ham handed actions of the police. Which you know that I did not defend here. There was no statement that the charges were not valid, just that it should not have escalated to the point that it did. Here is a quote from another source that supports the claim about the DA dropping the charges:

"He said that continuing to pursue the charges — obstructing governmental administration, resisting arrest, endangering the welfare of a child and trespassing — “will not serve any purpose and I therefore moved today to dismiss it immediately in the interest of justice.”

Mom arrested in video that sparked outrage freed from jail

No mention or even indication that the charges were not valid. Jails today are overcrowded. That is why the first duty of a police officer in a case like this is to deescalate the situation. She still had to move, but what they probably should have done was to arrest her, take her out of the waiting room with her baby. Take her information and let her go. Police can do that sort of arrest and release. It happens quite often. I witnessed such an act myself recently. A friend of my housemate knew had either a girlfriend or close friend that got pulled over by the highway patrol on a rather long bridge near where I live. Her license was revoked and she could not drive her car away. This genius must have been trying to score some points with her because he needed the help of another licensed driver, if we could get there before the towing company showed up we could drive her car off of the bridge. On the way he tells me that he had a suspended licence! Well of course the highway patrol officer right away asks for both of our licenses. I gave him mine, no problem. He gave him his and prayed. It did not work. Since he was only suspended in the first degree the officer arrested him. Handcuffed him. Put him in the back of his patrol car and got his information. He then released him. He could not drive the girls car off of the bridge. He could not drive his car off of the bridge. I drove both of them off and then went home. I don't know what happened with the girl. I do know that he got a sizable ticket for driving while suspended.

At any rate, since she was causing trouble by not following the rules and regs that everyone else was following, and she was given countless chances to get up, and she put her child at risk by resisting arrest and was pulling on the child just as hard as the police were, I put more blame on her than I do on the police for this incident. Yes, the cops should have done a better job. But there is more than enough guilt to go around in this case.

 

[Koldo]

That appears to be the claim of the woman that shot the video. You are jumping to conclusions.

Meanwhile all of the charges against her were valid. The reason that she was released was that the District Attorney thought that she had already suffered enough from the ham handed actions of the police. Which you know that I did not defend here. There was no statement that the charges were not valid, just that it should not have escalated to the point that it did. Here is a quote from another source that supports the claim about the DA dropping the charges:

"He said that continuing to pursue the charges — obstructing governmental administration, resisting arrest, endangering the welfare of a child and trespassing — “will not serve any purpose and I therefore moved today to dismiss it immediately in the interest of justice.”

Mom arrested in video that sparked outrage freed from jail

No mention or even indication that the charges were not valid. Jails today are overcrowded. That is why the first duty of a police officer in a case like this is to deescalate the situation. She still had to move, but what they probably should have done was to arrest her, take her out of the waiting room with her baby. Take her information and let her go. Police can do that sort of arrest and release. It happens quite often. I witnessed such an act myself recently. A friend of my housemate knew had either a girlfriend or close friend that got pulled over by the highway patrol on a rather long bridge near where I live. Her license was revoked and she could not drive her car away. This genius must have been trying to score some points with her because he needed the help of another licensed driver, if we could get there before the towing company showed up we could drive her car off of the bridge. On the way he tells me that he had a suspended licence! Well of course the highway patrol officer right away asks for both of our licenses. I gave him mine, no problem. He gave him his and prayed. It did not work. Since he was only suspended in the first degree the officer arrested him. Handcuffed him. Put him in the back of his patrol car and got his information. He then released him. He could not drive the girls car off of the bridge. He could not drive his car off of the bridge. I drove both of them off and then went home. I don't know what happened with the girl. I do know that he got a sizable ticket for driving while suspended.

At any rate, since she was causing trouble by not following the rules and regs that everyone else was following, and she was given countless chances to get up, and she put her child at risk by resisting arrest and was pulling on the child just as hard as the police were, I put more blame on her than I do on the police for this incident. Yes, the cops should have done a better job. But there is more than enough guilt to go around in this case.

You mean we should not consider the claim of a witness to be true ? If So, why?

The charges being ( or not ) valid are of little relevance to me. Otherwise that would entail that all laws are moral or at least reasonable, and I agree with neither of those.

She was not causing any trouble. She was not given the chance to sit elsewhere. She did not put her child at any risk. Therefore, I put no blame on her as of now except for resisting arrest, and even then it is questionable if she shouldn't have done so considering the consequences.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You mean we should not consider the claim of a witness to be true ? If So, why?

The charges being ( or not ) valid are of little relevance to me. Otherwise that would entail that all laws are moral or at least reasonable, and I agree with neither of those.

She was not causing any trouble. She was not given the chance to sit elsewhere. She did not put her child at any risk. Therefore, I put no blame on her as of now except for resisting arrest, and even then it is questionable if she shouldn't have done so considering the consequences.

The claim of a witness always needs to be vetted. Do you think that she was without agenda?

And the source that you accused me of not reading did say that she was causing trouble.

 

[Valjean]

No problem. When she was arrested she resisted arrest. The time to fight an arrest is in court. She tried to use her child as a shield and would not let him go. She was more to blame than the police for any harm that befell the child.

She could sit in jail for years before her case came up, should she have the temerity to fight the charges.