Pioneering: Teaching or Proselytizing?

[stvdv]

I can easily see how one would feel justified.

I can easily see how to remedy this, if this is totally untrue

 

[Dawnofhope]

But in a way it is quite understandable that Dutch Bahai proselytize, because most were Christians before, and proselytizing is big in Dutch Christians

This is a hugely important point. Baha’is often bring attitudes and practices from their Christian Faith into their Baha’i life. I was a born again Christian for a small while before becoming a Baha’i. I do recall being criticised for being a Baha’i fundamentalist in my early Baha’i years.

It’s really important for the health of Baha’i communities to have friends who aren’t Baha’is and enjoy hanging out with the Baha’is without any expectation of becoming a Baha’i ...ever. For many people, being a Baha’i is not right for them and that’s absolutely fine.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I can easily see how to remedy this, if this is totally untrue

To be fair the intent of anyone specifically pioneering is to assist the Baha’i community in that locality. A locality may require a pioneer as the community is weak or doesn’t have a Baha’i community at all. Obviously if there’s no Baha’is at all in that locality it would be hoped that pioneering will result in locals who are interested becoming Baha’is. This has of course happened in tens of thousands of localities around the world. There would not be a strong Bahá’í community where I live if it had not been for pioneers.

So do pioneers convert people to become Baha’is or intend to convert others? The answer for Baha’is will be a resounding “No”, whereas some looking from the outside in, will reasonably ask how can that not be the intent. The answer is that only God and His Manifestations can change hearts. If God wishes for any of us to become Baha’is and we are truly open to Him, it is an inevitability.

So as a Baha’i I have never converted anyone, never will and have no wish to. If someone feels moved to learn more about the faith, I will assist them. If they want to join Baha’i activities I’m there to help. If they want to become a Baha’i I have something to offer.

Baha’is can easily overstep the line if they misconstrue another’s interest in the Baha’i Faith and imagine there’s more to it. Most people who are interested in learning about the Baha’i Faith or spending time with Baha’is don’t want to become Baha’is.

 

[stvdv]

This is a hugely important point. Baha’is often bring attitudes and practices from their Christian Faith into their Baha’i life. I was a born again Christian for a small while before becoming a Baha’i. I do recall being criticised for being a Baha’i fundamentalist in my early Baha’i years.

"This is a hugely important point" was exactly what I had in mind to write down, when writing my previous post. But I deleted it. Good to see you picked up where I left. I was also quite fanatic when starting my spiritual quest. Many people have this, I have seen. Seems the ego to me.

It’s really important for the health of Baha’i communities to have friends who aren’t Baha’is and enjoy hanging out with the Baha’is without any expectation of becoming a Baha’i ...ever. For many people, being a Baha’i is not right for them and that’s absolutely fine.

My Master also advises to visit other religious groups, so that you become more tolerant, and less ego-centered (religious centered). Seems a human thing, long time ago people thought the earth to be the center of the Universe. Took quite a while, before it was proven wrong. Similarly, it might take a long time to prove that there is not 1 religion the right religion.

 

[Vinayaka]

I get the feeling that you try to hide your "intent" by telling "God does the conversion". Then in my book it is proselytizing.

Common tactic. Blame god, not the person. As if the proselytizer has some special connection to God the rest of us don't. My God told me to shut up about our relationship. Why would the same God tell some folks to yap about it, and others to keep quiet? Maybe it's a different God.

 

[Vinayaka]

To be fair the intent of anyone specifically pioneering is to assist the Baha’i community in that locality. A locality may require a pioneer as the community is weak or doesn’t have a Baha’i community at all. Obviously if there’s no Baha’is at all in that locality it would be hoped that pioneering will result in locals who are interested becoming Baha’is. This has of course happened in tens of thousands of localities around the world. There would not be a strong Bahá’í community where I live if it had not been for pioneers.

So do pioneers convert people to become Baha’is or intend to convert others? The answer for Baha’is will be a resounding “No”, whereas some looking from the outside in, will reasonably ask how can that not be the intent. The answer is that only God and His Manifestations can change hearts. If God wishes for any of us to become Baha’is and we are truly open to Him, it is an inevitability.

So as a Baha’i I have never converted anyone, never will and have no wish to. If someone feels moved to learn more about the faith, I will assist them. If they want to join Baha’i activities I’m there to help. If they want to become a Baha’i I have something to offer.

Baha’is can easily overstep the line if they misconstrue another’s interest in the Baha’i Faith and imagine there’s more to it. Most people who are interested in learning about the Baha’i Faith or spending time with Baha’is don’t want to become Baha’is.

This is loaded with contradictions. The entire first paragraph describes an intent to convert by pioneering, and then the first sentence of the second paragraph adamantly denies it.

Assist? You mean to start. Tens of thousands? That's just typical Baha'i exaggeration.

In my view there are only a few reasons someone should move to a faraway place. Economic opportunity, to escape a brutal system or war, to join with relatives all come to mind.

To try to convert people to a faith that is arguably worse than the existing faiths of peoples is hardly a good reason at all.

 

[stvdv]

I can easily see how to remedy this, if this is totally untrue

To be fair the intent of anyone specifically pioneering is to assist the Baha’i community in that locality. A locality may require a pioneer as the community is weak or doesn’t have a Baha’i community at all. Obviously if there’s no Baha’is at all in that locality it would be hoped that pioneering will result in locals who are interested becoming Baha’is. This has of course happened in tens of thousands of localities around the world. There would not be a strong Bahá’í community where I live if it had not been for pioneers.

That seems a good way to me. And it must be fun to be a pioneer I think. You do what you like to do best (if you are a God lover and a Bahai).

So do pioneers convert people to become Baha’is or intend to convert others? The answer for Baha’is will be a resounding “No”, whereas some looking from the outside in, will reasonably ask how can that not be the intent. The answer is that only God and His Manifestations can change hearts. If God wishes for any of us to become Baha’is and we are truly open to Him, it is an inevitability.

Okay, but that seems a play of word. God does the conversion, so a Bahai pioneer does not convert. Fair enough.
And then of course there is "no intend" to convert others also, because we know that God does the conversion.
In India I was also taught something similar "God is the doer, so it's good to offer all your actions, words and thoughts to God"

Then how to phrase it in such a way to extract an unequivocal answer, which will convince "outsiders" that pioneering is not proselytizing?
The question could be "Do pioneers believe that one needs Bahai to gain the highest realization or goal in life?"

My Master made sure there would be no doubts in this regard, by stating something along the lines:
1) All religions can lead you to God. So there is no need to change to a specific religion. Just pick the one that feels "good" to you.
2) I do not want you to evangelize, because evangelizing is the cause of Atheism; you belittle the faith that others have.
3) If religion is not your thing, no problem also. It's enough to be respectful towards creation ... Hurt Never, Help Ever.

Did Bahaullah also make it so abundantly clear, that it's better not to proselytize?
(My Master did not say it in every discourse, but if it is written down once, should be enough I think)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What are your thoughts? Is pioneering simply teaching? Or is it proselyting?

Definitely proselytizing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I get the feeling that you try to hide your "intent" by telling "God does the conversion". Then in my book it is proselytizing.

I have always said my intent. That is to the best of my ability, first live by and then always mention when I can as to what Baha'u'llah has offered humainty.

Consider, every progessive movement, every great invention that aids us, every great discovery we learn from, has a source that is shared.

Thus the intent is to let that Word do what it was given for, it is the word that has created us, it is our very existence and it is our own heart that has to make a choice.

The conversation then belongs to anothers heart. I do not own what Baha'u'llah has gifted, it is not I that will and can change any heart. Thus for me, I see as a Baha'i, the motivation is to find the good in all people and that to me is what faith is about, what we are to all look for and the goal in life for our own selves. To find naught but good and live by it.

That is what is offered in our communitues, virtue based education.

Again, it is only offered.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did Bahaullah also make it so abundantly clear, that it's better not to proselytize?

It is a Baha'i Law and forbidden.

At the same time we are Human and make mistakes. I know we have made many mistakes, but faith is organic and it grows and matures.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

"This is a hugely important point" was exactly what I had in mind to write down, when writing my previous post. But I deleted it. Good to see you picked up where I left. I was also quite fanatic when starting my spiritual quest. Many people have this, I have seen. Seems the ego to me.

I agree. It’s natural for many of us when we find the faith that’s right for us to imagine it’s right for everyone else too and shout it from the mountain tops. We’ve both been through that and are in very different places now.

My Master also advises to visit other religious groups, so that you become more tolerant, and less ego-centered (religious centered). Seems a human thing, even before people thought the earth to be the center of the Universe. Took quite a long time, before it was proven wrong. Similar it might take a long time to prove that there is not 1 religion the right religion.

Excellent advice. The last 7 1/2 years I’ve been assisting as a volunteer at a Christian Medical Centre. I’m currently on my cities Interfaith Council where there is a strong desire amongst at least some of us to have different faiths collaborate closely together for the benefit of all faiths in our city.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Applicable to whom? We have proselytizers and non-proselytizers. Neither POV or frame of reference is applicable to the other.

I see there are different opinions as to what is proselytizing.

I always consider that language has no set meaning, it always evolves along with humanity. The dictionary is always changing. Proselytizing has been given a new standard, it has a clear meaning given by the Baha'i Writings.

Will that meaning become more widely accepted?

RF could be the first to adopt that meaning and make it clear as to what rule 8 means, how about that RF

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Common tactic. Blame god, not the person. As if the proselytizer has some special connection to God the rest of us don't. My God told me to shut up about our relationship. Why would the same God tell some folks to yap about it, and others to keep quiet? Maybe it's a different God.

I’ve often read what you have written about your faith as you have read my words. There are times to speak and times to remain silent. Where the line is drawn is as much culturally determined as it is our experiences with God. Hindus are much more reserved for example whereas Christians in the USA are not.

 

[Vinayaka]

I see there are different opinions as to what is proselytizing.

Yes, obviously. That's been apparent to me since my first discussion with Baha'i folks. Just when did you figure it out?

 

[Vinayaka]

But in a way it is quite understandable that Dutch Bahai proselytize, because most were Christians before, and proselytizing is big in Dutch Christians

Lingering effects of the subconscious mind ... quite noticeable in ISKCON as well.

 

[Vinayaka]

I’ve often read what you have written about your faith as you have read my words. There are times to speak and times to remain silent. Where the line is drawn is as much culturally determined as it is our experiences with God. Hindus are much more reserved for example whereas Christians in the USA are not.

If it's really quite relevant to the conversation at hand, or answering a direct question, I'll share too. But off topic and out of the blue ... well that's not the right time. Or taking a bold step right into the middle of an already established culture to cause disharmony ... also not the right time.

 

[oldbadger]

Some material posted in another thread inspired me to do some additional reading outside of RF, which led to the creation of this thread. Allow me to preface this thread by saying this is in no way an attack on the Baha'i faith nor its followers, nor will I allow it to become one. It is, however, a critical analysis of the Baha'i practice of "pioneering."

While I know we have an active thread on proselytizing, I did not want to derail it with an analysis of this practice. So what is pioneering you ask?

"A pioneer is a volunteer Bahá'í who leaves his or her home to journey to another place (often another country) for the purpose of teaching the Bahá'í Faith. The act of so moving is termed pioneering."

Pioneering (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia

Baha'i that I've encountered are rather insistent that pioneering is not proselytizing. In fact, in their words, they are forbidden to proselytize.

"It is true that Bahá'u'lláh lays on every Bahá'í the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize, so it is important for all the believers to understand the difference between teaching and proselytizing. It is a significant difference and, in some countries where teaching a religion is permitted, but proselytizing is forbidden, the distinction is made in the law of the land. Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion. In some countries mission schools or hospitals, for all the good they do, are regarded with suspicion and even aversion by the local authorities because they are considered to be material inducements to conversion and hence instruments of proselytization."

Pioneering (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia

Which leads me to the reason I created this topic. Are teaching and proselytizing mutually exclusive?

I don't think they are. As I see it, teaching can be proselytizing if the intent of the teacher is to affect change to the worldview of another, whether or not undue pressure, threats, or coercion are present in the message. If one were to come up to you and give you unsolicited information about their views in the absence of your initial intent to learn something from them, would you consider that teaching or proselytizing?

In reading the article and in my interaction with Baha'i here on the forum, I'm led to the conclusion that pioneering is little more than proselytizing under the guise of teaching, or as has been the case in this forum, debate.

What are your thoughts? Is pioneering simply teaching? Or is it proselyting?

I knew Bahai's (mostly married couples but one doctor who may have been single) who pioneered.
As I remember they were always excited if folks they had introduced to Bahai to had 'declared' themselves to be Bahais.

I can remember some of their names but won't show them here.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is loaded with contradictions. The entire first paragraph describes an intent to convert by pioneering, and then the first sentence of the second paragraph adamantly denies it.

Assist? You mean to start. Tens of thousands? That's just typical Baha'i exaggeration.

I mean assist. The Baha’is are already there.

A few decades ago we had around 20,000 local spiritual assembly’s worldwide. An Assembly has nine people, there will be far more communities with less than nine adult believers.

Are these the exaggerated Baha’i statistics?

Bahá'í statistics - Wikipedia

In New Zealand we have approximately 40 Assemblys for a population of under 5 million people. We would have about 100 - 200 locations that have Baha’i communities. Assuming similar ratios per the world wide population ( and its a big assumption admittedly) that comes to over 40,000 Baha’i Assemblys and well over 100,000 localities worldwide. Of course New Zealand could be doing exceptionally well. We could extrapolate the figures based on USA or Canadian statistics and it would be similar I imagine.

In my view there are only a few reasons someone should move to a faraway place. Economic opportunity, to escape a brutal system or war, to join with relatives all come to mind.

So no Hindu has ever moved to another community to assist the Hindu community elsewhere?

In a world that’s increasingly dominated by materialistic ideologies and corruption, moving to a new locality to promote spirituality seems noble to me.

To try to convert people to a faith that is arguably worse than the existing faiths of peoples is hardly a good reason at all.

On the other hand to actively suppress religious diversity and spirituality is a huge problem. To be gifted with the light of faith and not share it with others would be just as much a contradiction as proselytising IMHO.

 

[Vinayaka]

So no Hindu has ever moved to another community to assist the Hindu community elsewhere?

Not that I'm aware, other than professions where no local person can do it, like temple carvers, or priests who know how to do certain ceremonies. Then it's on visas. An exception might be ISKCON though, as they follow similar patterns to some Abrahamic proselytising groups. They do go all over.

We've been through the exaggeration stuff before, and I'm not willing to go there again. I researched Canada, and discovered ghost towns to have Baha'i communities. Enough said. From my research from non-Baha'i sources, (not ex-Baha'i but government data) I concluded that the data is grossly over-exaggerated, probably by a factor of about 5 times. You're free to believe the Baha'i propaganda.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That seems a good way to me. And it must be fun to be a pioneer I think. You do what you like to do best (if you are a God lover and a Bahai).

I have spent one year as a Baha’i in a smaller provincial town about 2 hour drive from my home town. There was a small Baha’i community there with an assembly. It was a great experience. I have spent most of my Baha’i life living in a small city of over a hundred thousand with about 60-70 Baha’is. It would be difficult to move for family reasons. Maybe in 10 years I can pioneer.

Okay, but that seems a play of word. God does the conversion, so a Bahai pioneer does not convert. Fair enough.
And then of course there is "no intend" to convert others also, because we know that God does the conversion.
In India I was also taught something similar "God is the doer, so it's good to offer all your actions, words and thoughts to God"

This is a vital distinction that you appreciate. It is God through the Holy Spirit who changes hearts. We can be channels through which the Holy Spirit flows, but we are not the Holy Spirit.

Then how to phrase it in such a way to extract an unequivocal answer, which will convince "outsiders" that pioneering is not proselytizing?
The question could be "Do pioneers believe that one needs Bahai to gain the highest realization or goal in life?"

Bahá’u’lláh taught let deeds not words be your adorning. A man can achieve excellent character through many spiritual paths, Hinduism included.

My Master made sure there would be no doubts in this regard, by stating something along the lines:
1) All religions can lead you to God. So there is no need to change to a specific religion. Just pick the one that feels "good" to you.
2) I do not want you to evangelize, because evangelizing is the cause of Atheism; you belittle the faith that others have.
3) If religion is not your thing, no problem also. It's enough to be respectful towards creation ... Hurt Never, Help Ever.

Once again, very good advice.

Did Bahaullah also make it so abundantly clear, that it's better not to proselytize?
(My Master did not say it in every discourse, but if it is written down once, should be enough I think)

I can not find any passage of Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings that explicitly mentions proselytising. However it is strongly implied:

Moderation is indeed highly desirable. Every person who in some degree turneth towards the truth can himself later comprehend most of what he seeketh. However, if at the outset a word is uttered beyond his capacity, he will refuse to hear it and will arise in opposition.

Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding....

However the Universal House of Justice whose authority has been conferred by the pen of Bahá’u’lláh Himself makes a clear distinction between teaching and proselytising:

It is true that Bahá’u’lláh lays on every Bahá’í the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize, so it is important for all believers to understand the difference between teaching and proselytizing. It is a significant difference and, in some countries where teaching a religion is permitted, but proselytizing is forbidden, the distinction is made in the law of the land. Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion. In some countries mission schools or hospitals, for all the good they do, are regarded with suspicion and even aversion by the local authorities because they are considered to be material inducements to conversion and hence instruments of proselytization.

3 January 1982 – [To an individual] | Bahá’í Reference Library