Pioneering: Teaching or Proselytizing?

[Dawnofhope]

If it's really quite relevant to the conversation at hand, or answering a direct question, I'll share too. But off topic and out of the blue ... well that's not the right time. Or taking a bold step right into the middle of an already established culture to cause disharmony ... also not the right time.

You mean the disruptive affects both Islam and Christianity had on India?

Not that I'm aware, other than professions where no local person can do it, like temple carvers, or priests who know how to do certain ceremonies. Then it's on visas. An exception might be ISKCON though, as they follow similar patterns to some Abrahamic proselytising groups. They do go all over.

Having a Priest move from one locality to another would be an important step in either establishing or strengthening a Hindu community. The Priest was pivotal to the Hindu Pooja I recently attended.

While ISKCON is at one end of the spectrum and your group may at the other, there are undoubtedly other Hindu groups in the middle such as the Brahma Kumaris or Sai Baba.

http://www.brahmakumaris.nz/about-us/introduction

We've been through the exaggeration stuff before, and I'm not willing to go there again. I researched Canada, and discovered ghost towns to have Baha'i communities. Enough said. From my research from non-Baha'i sources, (not ex-Baha'i but government data) I concluded that the data is grossly over-exaggerated, probably by a factor of about 5 times. You're free to believe the Baha'i propaganda.

To be clear the only two countries with reliable census data (Canada and Norway) included in a Wikipedia article mentioning criticism of Baha’i statistics has a much smaller difference between official Baha’i figures and census numbers, so I have no idea where your estimate of 5 times comes from.

Criticism of the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

 

[paarsurrey]

Pioneering: Teaching or Proselytizing?

• There is no harm in telling others about one's/your religion/and no-religion and asking others about theirs.
• Written materials could also be exchanged. All of this may be/ must be done with mutual respect, and in a peaceful dialogue.
• There is no harm if a conversion takes place from either side.
• There is also no harm if entertaining of one another is done with tea/coffee as when human meet one another it is a token of respect.
• As far as possible soft words should be used and chosen for the religious founders of one another and the scriptures. Reason should prevail instead of deriding and mocking what others believe.

Right, please?

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

Having a Priest move from one locality to another would be an important step in either establishing or strengthening a Hindu community. The Priest was pivotal to the Hindu Pooja I recently attended.

Huge difference. Priests get hired so they're invited. Pioneers go on their own accord to proselytise hoping to find converts. In many country immigration laws. you're allowed in if there is no suitable candidate there, and the only person with that skill is from outside. That's how we get priests here. There are also lay priests, volunteers from the community, who know enough ritual to get by.

But again, you're free to differ, and you do, obviously.

The thread title is about pioneering in the Baha'i community. Obviously, I view it as totally proselytizing. Any comparison to other forms of people migrating, like refugees, or for economic livelihood, is just grasping at straws.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was with you until the last paragraph.

In your explanation above, there was a conversation that was sparked by a Hindu about religion. In these case during the discourse, I see it as acceptable to share each other's beliefs assuming neither party discussed why one religion was better or why the other should hold their beliefs.

However, if someone moves to a location with the intent of "sharing" their belief, as I see it, there is clearly an attempt to convert unless they are attending some sort of religious conference (such as Swami Vivekananda did in 1893 when he joined the Parliament of World Religions in Chicago). It would be preposterous if you expect me to believe that one relocated to a new locale because they just want to share with someone that they're Baha'i. This would be akin to you believing I moved to a small village in Australia just to share with people that I follow Advaita Vedanta.

No, you cannot know the intent of anyone except yourself, not unless a person tells you their intent.

A person could go pioneering with an intent to share their religion. Sharing is not proselytizing.

All humans have free will so everyone is free to choose what to believe. Nobody can be converted against their will unless they are confronted by someone such as ISIS who is forcibly trying to convert people to Islam.

 

[Trailblazer]

I could not answer this question intelligently without knowing the method of gathering. But the very action of inviting someone to gather so you can preach to them about a religion is what I consider to be proselytizing, as without the invitation, they would just be going on about their lives.

At these gatherings, is the same time allocated to each individual to discuss their worldview and why they think it's correct as to the leader of the gathering is discussing Baha'i? If not, the intent is not to share. It's to proselytize.

Baha’is invite people to Firesides to learn about the Faith. I was never involved in these activities of inviting people to Firesides, so I do not know how they go about inviting people. I never went to these Firesides so I do not know if they were a presentation format only or an open discussion. I suppose it varies according to who is giving the Fireside.

Not at all. I've mentioned to my daughter that I follow Advaita Vedanta. Beyond that, she knows nothing more about it that what she's asked me. I intend to keep it that way, as my worldview is personal. If she wants to know more about it, I am glad to share. But would I find teaching her about without her asking out of curiosity it to be impractical and selfish, as I know my views are not for everyone.

I am not suggesting Baha’is teach the Baha’i Faith to people unless they show an interest. I never do that. In fact, I never mention Baha’i to anyone unless religion comes up in conversation, and in that case I consider it good manners to share what I believe, if someone shared what they believe, but I would not go beyond saying I am a Baha’i unless they started to ask me questions.

We are all different. My husband is a Baha’i and he is more talkative. He seizes the opportunity to talk about the Faith, probably more than he should.

 

[oldbadger]

I think that Bahauallah definitely wanted his name and religion to be well advertised.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 34-49 - Bahá'í Reference Library

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-5.html
.... that ye may bring forth one who will make mention of Me amid My servants.
Make Mention of Me on My Earth - BahaiTeachings.org

Make Mention of Me on My Earth29 May 2014 - Magnify My cause that I may reveal unto thee the mysteries of My ... mention of Me” – what do you think Baha'u'llah means when he ... them and bring forth roses and hyacinths of heavenly planting. ...

 

[oldbadger]

Any Bahai who goes travelling far in order to spread the Bahai Faith is a pioneer........ see what Bahai says:-

Lights of Guidance/Pioneers and Pioneering - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith
28 Aug 2015 - Pioneers—Homeless and Wanderers in the Path of God .... is a teacher, any Bahá'í who moves to another area to spread the Faith is a pioneer.
----------------------------------------------------------------

It's not a big deal, promoting a religion to the public by various means or going travelling to do it, imo. It's just when folks tell you that they don't when they do that the alarm bells should ring.

If they dodge and duck over stuff like that, maybe they're ducking and dodging about everything else?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Baha’is move to a new locality to share Bahá’u’lláh’s message to those who are interested and invite those who are already Baha’is at heart to enrol in the community. If you want to let that get you worked up and start calling the Baha’is hypocritical proselytisers, all the best.

 

[stvdv]

Faith can only be shared, it is God that doeth as God so chooses to each and every heart. It is only each individual that can make the choice to pursue what interests them.

I get the feeling that you try to hide your "intent" by telling "God does the conversion". Then in my book it is proselytizing.

I have always said my intent. That is to the best of my ability, first live by and then always mention when I can as to what Baha'u'llah has offered humainty.

You mentioned "Faith can only be shared ... God does the conversion"
But the whole thread is about "Faith can be shared with or without proselytizing"
You gave me the impression that "Faith can only be shared" ... proselytizing can not be there at all when sharing
I would have understood if you had written "Faith can be shared +/- proselytizing (intent to convert), but actually God does the conversion"

BUT in your later reply you totally took out all confusion, by saying "proselytizing is forbidden". More clear than this we can't get it.

Consider, every progessive movement, every great invention that aids us, every great discovery we learn from, has a source that is shared.

Thus the intent is to let that Word do what it was given for, it is the word that has created us, it is our very existence and it is our own heart that has to make a choice.

Even Atheists love to share scientific new ideas. If done with intent to convert theist away from theism, it comes close to proselytizing I think.

The conversation then belongs to anothers heart. I do not own what Baha'u'llah has gifted, it is not I that will and can change any heart. Thus for me, I see as a Baha'i, the motivation is to find the good in all people and that to me is what faith is about, what we are to all look for and the goal in life for our own selves. To find naught but good and live by it.

That is what is offered in our communitues, virtue based education.

Again, it is only offered.

That feels admirable to me.

My Master made sure there would be no doubts in this regard, by stating something along the lines:
1) All religions can lead you to God. So there is no need to change to a specific religion. Just pick the one that feels "good" to you.
2) I do not want you to evangelize, because evangelizing is the cause of Atheism; you belittle the faith that others have.
3) If religion is not your thing, no problem also. It's enough to be respectful towards creation ... Hurt Never, Help Ever.

Did Bahaullah also make it so abundantly clear, that it's better not to proselytize?

It is a Baha'i Law and forbidden.

At the same time we are Human and make mistakes. I know we have made many mistakes, but faith is organic and it grows and matures.

Thank you, for sharing. More clear than this you could not have been. Proselytizing in Bahai is forbidden. So pioneering should not be proselytizing

The moment we admit "we should not proselytize, but it still happens", there is no need to debate about it even.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Any Bahai who goes travelling far in order to spread the Bahai Faith is a pioneer........ see what Bahai says:-

Lights of Guidance/Pioneers and Pioneering - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith
28 Aug 2015 - Pioneers—Homeless and Wanderers in the Path of God .... is a teacher, any Bahá'í who moves to another area to spread the Faith is a pioneer.
----------------------------------------------------------------

It's not a big deal, promoting a religion to the public by various means or going travelling to do it, imo. It's just when folks tell you that they don't when they do that the alarm bells should ring.

If they dodge and duck over stuff like that, maybe they're ducking and dodging about everything else?

You can take any quote you wish and make it mean what you would like to make it If you were a Baha'i you would understand that it can not lead you to think or actually undertake an act that is proselytizing. It would break Baha'i values. But at times it does take time to learn where the line actually is.

So hands up, we may not have always done it as we should have. At the same time you are invited and are free to enter my community and ask how many know Baha'i and if Baha'i Proselytize. You will get the result I offer, it does not happen.

The best way to teach is to live by the life called for by the teachings and not one word has to be said until one asks. If one does live this life, then many questions are usually asked. Again they will be answered, but no one becomes a Baha'i that did not ask and then choose for themselves to do so.

Hope you are well and happy OB.

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

But in a way it is quite understandable that Dutch Bahai proselytize, because most were Christians before, and proselytizing is big in Dutch Christians

So even if many Bahai's proselytize a lot, does not mean necessarily that Bahaullah was teaching to proselytize.

Did Bahaullah also make it so abundantly clear, that it's better not to proselytize?

It is a Baha'i Law and forbidden.

At the same time we are Human and make mistakes. I know we have made many mistakes, but faith is organic and it grows and matures.

Thank you, for sharing. More clear than this you could not have been. Proselytizing in Bahai is forbidden. So pioneering should not be proselytizing

BUT because as you say "we are Human and make mistakes" ... obviously there is a bit proselytizing going on in Bahai. But don't worry, also in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Atheism, Humanism, Buddhism, Advaitha. Like you said "it seems to be Human trait to think `my way is the highway`".

I remember once there was a priest believing in flat earth. I really wanted to convert him into believing the earth is round. I gave all the formula's to prove, but no chance. I offered to have a look at sea and see boats disappear. Did not work either. Once a belief is fixed in someones mind, it is very hard to get it out. And suddenly I realized "it is his belief. I want him to respect my belief, so I better respect his belief too". But for me it is difficult when it comes to someone claiming to not believe that "1+1=2" or believing in flat earth. It is much easier for me to respect and accept a different religion or atheism, humanism etc. to be "their highway"

After reading Bahaullah's Book, I was relieved, because to me it felt there was no proselytizing. I am glad to have this confirmed twice now.

For me proselytizing is only an issue if they belittle others as in "My way (Bahai) is the highway for all" (as in "they can't get there without Bahai").

Because many Bahai in the West used to be Christian, this Bahai sub-group will proselytize a bit more, before learning that it is forbidden.

So my conclusion "Pioneering is teaching and it should not be proselytizing as per Bahaullah (but learning curve is steep for some)"

 

[SalixIncendium]

No, you cannot know the intent of anyone except yourself, not unless a person tells you their intent.

A person could go pioneering with an intent to share their religion. Sharing is not proselytizing.

All humans have free will so everyone is free to choose what to believe. Nobody can be converted against their will unless they are confronted by someone such as ISIS who is forcibly trying to convert people to Islam.

C’mon now. Am I expected to believe that a Baha’i pioneers with no intent to convert?

 

[Trailblazer]

C’mon now. Am I expected to believe that a Baha’i pioneers with no intent to convert?

I hate that word convert because it is against everything Baha'u'llah taught about independent investigation of truth.
Convert implies we are trying to persuade people to change their religious faith or other beliefs.
We are not supposed to try to persuade people.
Sharing is not converting.

Again...

“It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have always said my intent. That is to the best of my ability, first live by and then always mention when I can as to what Baha'u'llah has offered humainty.

Consider, every progessive movement, every great invention that aids us, every great discovery we learn from, has a source that is shared.

Thus the intent is to let that Word do what it was given for, it is the word that has created us, it is our very existence and it is our own heart that has to make a choice.

The conversation then belongs to anothers heart. I do not own what Baha'u'llah has gifted, it is not I that will and can change any heart. Thus for me, I see as a Baha'i, the motivation is to find the good in all people and that to me is what faith is about, what we are to all look for and the goal in life for our own selves. To find naught but good and live by it.

That is what is offered in our communitues, virtue based education.

Again, it is only offered.

Regards Tony

If we took what you just said and swap "Baha'u'llah" with "Christ" and "Baha'i" with "Christian," we'd have something almost identical to how a typical Evangelical Christian missionary would describe their own aggressive proselytizing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I hate that word convert because it is against everything Baha'u'llah taught about independent investigation of truth.
Convert implies we are trying to persuade people to change their religious faith or other beliefs.
We are not supposed to try to persuade people.
Sharing is not converting.

It is if your sharing is motivated by the hope that the person will take what you share with them to heart and become a Baha'i.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I hate that word convert because it is against everything Baha'u'llah taught about independent investigation of truth.
Convert implies we are trying to persuade people to change their religious faith or other beliefs.
We are not supposed to try to persuade people.
Sharing is not converting.

Again...

“It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

Please enlighten me on the point of “sharing” if it is something other than conversion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

All humans have free will so everyone is free to choose what to believe. Nobody can be converted against their will unless they are confronted by someone such as ISIS who is forcibly trying to convert people to Islam.

Doesn't the way you say "converted against their will" imply that you recognize that people can be converted willingly?

 

[oldbadger]

You can take any quote you wish and make it mean what you would like to make it If you were a Baha'i you would understand that it can not lead you to think or actually undertake an act that is proselytizing. It would break Baha'i values. But at times it does take time to learn where the line actually is.

So hands up, we may not have always done it as we should have. At the same time you are invited and are free to enter my community and ask how many know Baha'i and if Baha'i Proselytize. You will get the result I offer, it does not happen.

The best way to teach is to live by the life called for by the teachings and not one word has to be said until one asks. If one does live this life, then many questions are usually asked. Again they will be answered, but no one becomes a Baha'i that did not ask and then choose for themselves to do so.

Hope you are well and happy OB.

Regards Tony

Hello Tony
I am well and kicking, thank you

I quoted from Baha'i sites, Tony.

It is my firm belief now that to find something near truth about Baha'i, I need to reverse what they tell me.

But let's have a look at what Bahauallah says about his World, and just quote him........ I'll be back when I can.

Now you take care, Tony.
Best wishes.....

 

[stvdv]

Please enlighten me on the point of “sharing” if it is something other than conversion.

For example if a scientist shares "the earth is round" with a Flat Earther, the scientist shares the info, not to convert him (maybe a little).

I love Durian, but I also love to share ... BUT only if they don't spit it out ... such a waste, because I love Durian very much.

I share my joy, not to convert, but hoping the other likes it too (can be seen as converting myself into happiness I get by sharing stuff).
Conversion starts when you believe the other is on the wrong track.

If you are vegetarian, because you don't want animals to suffer. You share this info, trying to convert the other, to avoid harming animals.

It all comes down to the emotional belief you have when sharing. If you believe the other is on the wrong track then sharing is trying to convert IMO

OR to avoid smart reply "God does the conversion", I better say "if you believe the other is on the wrong track then sharing is trying to do God's job"

 

[SalixIncendium]

For example if a scientist shares "the earth is round" with a Flat Earther, the scientist shares the info, not to convert him (maybe a little).

I love Durian, but I also love to share ... BUT only if they don't spit it out ... such a waste, because I love Durian very much.

I share my joy, not to convert, but hoping the other likes it too (can be seen as converting myself into happiness I get by sharing stuff).
Conversion starts when you believe the other is on the wrong track.

If you are vegetarian, because you don't want animals to suffer. You share this info, trying to convert the other, to avoid harming animals.

It all comes down to the emotional belief you have when sharing. If you believe the other is on the wrong track then sharing is trying to convert IMO

OR to avoid smart reply "God does the conversion", I better say "if you believe the other is on the wrong track then sharing is trying to do God's job"

Thanks. But I was speaking with regard to sharing in the context of the Baha'i Faith and the practice of pioneering.