Pioneering: Teaching or Proselytizing?

[SalixIncendium]

I have two good examples of what I see as crossing the line.

First is a meeting arranged in my community that was an invitation to find out about the Baha'i Faith. All those that came did so because they chose to. The two priests that invaded the meeting to disrupt the talk, they were proselytizing.

A stall set up in a local market that has material on the table for people to look at and ask questions if they so choose. Again the people that come with an intent to disrupt the natural flow of people that choose to ask questions or take something to read are the proselytizers.

As I see it from an outsiders perspective that has no interest for either side, the those that led the meeting, the two priests, the people who set up the stall with the material to look at, and those who came with the intent to disrupt the natural flow of people were all proselytizing.

You just fail to see that because you feel you were justified in spreading your views and that others were not.

If I am asked about my life and why I have chosen to do what I have, then I answer with the truth, would you have me lie?

Of course not. But this isn't about responding to someone's curiosity. This is about pioneering, which is what we're discussing here. Leave the goalposts where they are.

Now if one comes on to a religious debate without any faith, why then choose to proselytize the idea of no faith, or that having no faith has any merit greater then faith?

I come to every religious debate with no faith. I come with experience. I don't proselytize the idea. I share my views and experiences.


There's a difference between:

When we jump out of a plane and we free fall through a cloud, it's going to slow us way down.

...or...

I read somewhere that if I jump out of a plane and free fall through a cloud, I'll come out soaking wet. If you jump out of a plane, and there are clouds in the sky, wear a raincoat.

...and...

When I jumped out of a plane and free fell through a could, it was cool and damp.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is where a different frame of reference becomes applicable.

Applicable to whom? We have proselytizers and non-proselytizers. Neither POV or frame of reference is applicable to the other.

 

[Trailblazer]

Some material posted in another thread inspired me to do some additional reading outside of RF, which led to the creation of this thread. Allow me to preface this thread by saying this is in no way an attack on the Baha'i faith nor its followers, nor will I allow it to become one. It is, however, a critical analysis of the Baha'i practice of "pioneering."

While I know we have an active thread on proselytizing, I did not want to derail it with an analysis of this practice. So what is pioneering you ask?

"A pioneer is a volunteer Bahá'í who leaves his or her home to journey to another place (often another country) for the purpose of teaching the Bahá'í Faith. The act of so moving is termed pioneering."

Pioneering (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia

Baha'i that I've encountered are rather insistent that pioneering is not proselytizing. In fact, in their words, they are forbidden to proselytize.

"It is true that Bahá'u'lláh lays on every Bahá'í the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize, so it is important for all the believers to understand the difference between teaching and proselytizing. It is a significant difference and, in some countries where teaching a religion is permitted, but proselytizing is forbidden, the distinction is made in the law of the land. Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion. In some countries mission schools or hospitals, for all the good they do, are regarded with suspicion and even aversion by the local authorities because they are considered to be material inducements to conversion and hence instruments of proselytization."

Pioneering (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia

Which leads me to the reason I created this topic. Are teaching and proselytizing mutually exclusive?

I don't think they are. As I see it, teaching can be proselytizing if the intent of the teacher is to affect change to the worldview of another, whether or not undue pressure, threats, or coercion are present in the message. If one were to come up to you and give you unsolicited information about their views in the absence of your initial intent to learn something from them, would you consider that teaching or proselytizing?

In reading the article and in my interaction with Baha'i here on the forum, I'm led to the conclusion that pioneering is little more than proselytizing under the guise of teaching, or as has been the case in this forum, debate.

What are your thoughts? Is pioneering simply teaching? Or is it proselyting?

Proselytizing implies intent to convert people from one opinion or belief to another. Baha’u’llah told us that we should not try to convert people because “the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”

“It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143​

What Baha’is are enjoined to do is share our Faith, but that does not mean we share it with people who are not interested. However, IF it comes up in a conversation about religion, I see no reason why we should not share what we believe. For example, a potential tenant once started talking to me about her religion and she told me she was a Hindu. Why shouldn't I say I am a Baha'i? When I did that she was very curious and I answered her questions.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289 ​

Sharing is not proselytizing. Proselytizing implies intent to convert but sharing does not imply intent to convert. Nobody has any way of knowing the intent of any other person. Even if I was happy that someone chose to become a Baha’i that would not imply intent to convert, because I would never want anyone to become a Baha’i unless they freely chose to do so after doing all the necessary research and investigation.

Baha’is are only supposed to “teach” the Baha’i Faith to people if they have shared and someone is interested in learning more about it.

Share: give a portion of (something) to another or others. https://www.google.com
Teach: show or explain to (someone) how to do something.https://www.google.com
Proselytize: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. https://www.google.com

Any or all of this would apply to someone who was pioneering as well as someone who was not. The fact that a Baha’i moved to a given location and took up residence in order to share the Baha’i Faith does not imply proselytizing. Proselytizing is intent to convert. Nobody but God can know the intent of anyone except themselves. It is highly arrogant to imply that they know another person's intent.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you approached others with an invitation, they weren't soliciting your teachings. If you gather people with the intent of teaching something they were not intending to learn about, I consider that proselytizing. It's really no different than standing on a soapbox on a street corner preaching.

I do not think we should approach people randomly with an invitation to a Baha'i event, but how could we gather people who did not want to be gathered? If people did not want to learn about the Faith why would they come to the gathering?

Same with the random conversations. Unless you were asked specifically about your Faith, I think that you were proselytizing.

But what if they mentioned their faith first? Why is it just a-okay for other people to mention their faith, yet when a Baha'i mentions their faith it is considered proselytizing? Sounds like a double standard to me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I single out a faith whose members presume to speak for me, that shoehorn my worldview into their own to make mine appear congruent to their own when they're not, and who presume to tell me what I need to do to change the world to what they think it should be. I don't do this to others. Those who share a worldview similar to mine don't do this to others. In fact, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the members here don't do this to others.

If you feel your faith is being singled out, that's a result of what your faith practices...or more accurately what it preaches.

Well it is your post and it mentions Baha'i. The JW have much the same process for pioneers, but not sure what they are called though. Other Faiths may also have this practice in place.

Thus You are 100% free to see it how you wish to and share how you see it, as you choose to do, No issue with me and I do not mind in any way.

Likewise, I am free to have a world view that is all inclusive and share that as well.

Thus It is very easy, if you never want to talk about it, please let me know, I will start using ignore so I do not see what you post, nor answer anything you do post.

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

What are your thoughts? Is pioneering simply teaching? Or is it proselyting?

Proselyting = intent to convert from one belief to another

I think it's easy for a Bahai to answer.

Question to ask oneself: "What is the reason that mr.X has the "intent" to convert mr.Y to another belief?"
a) You believe that only your belief leads to destruction, and you hate the other and yourself and you want to destroy both
b) You believe that only your belief leads to salvation, and you wish the other and yourself to get salvation
c) You need money, and the more members to more money is generated (if you have a good business plan)
d) ....

IF you anwer b) then it's probably with "intent" to get the other converted

 

[SalixIncendium]

Proselytizing implies intent to convert people from one opinion or belief to another. Baha’u’llah told us that we should not try to convert people because “the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”

“It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143​

What Baha’is are enjoined to do is share our Faith, but that does not mean we share it with people who are not interested. However, IF it comes up in a conversation about religion, I see no reason why we should not share what we believe. For example, a potential tenant once started talking to me about her religion and she told me she was a Hindu. Why shouldn't I say I am a Baha'i? When I did that she was very curious and I answered her questions.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289 ​

Sharing is not proselytizing. Proselytizing implies intent to convert but sharing does not imply intent to convert. Nobody has any way of knowing the intent of any other person. Even if I was happy that someone chose to become a Baha’i that would not imply intent to convert, because I would never want anyone to become a Baha’i unless they freely chose to do so after doing all the necessary research and investigation.

Baha’is are only supposed to “teach” the Baha’i Faith to people if they have shared and someone is interested in learning more about it.

Share: give a portion of (something) to another or others. https://www.google.com
Teach: show or explain to (someone) how to do something.https://www.google.com
Proselytize: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. https://www.google.com

Any or all of this would apply to someone who was pioneering as well as someone who was not. The fact that a Baha’i moved to a given location and took up residence in order to share the Baha’i Faith does not imply proselytizing. Proselytizing is intent to convert. Nobody but God can know the intent of anyone except themselves. It is highly arrogant to imply that they know another person's intent.

I was with you until the last paragraph.

In your explanation above, there was a conversation that was sparked by a Hindu about religion. In these case during the discourse, I see it as acceptable to share each other's beliefs assuming neither party discussed why one religion was better or why the other should hold their beliefs.

However, if someone moves to a location with the intent of "sharing" their belief, as I see it, there is clearly an attempt to convert unless they are attending some sort of religious conference (such as Swami Vivekananda did in 1893 when he joined the Parliament of World Religions in Chicago). It would be preposterous if you expect me to believe that one relocated to a new locale because they just want to share with someone that they're Baha'i. This would be akin to you believing I moved to a small village in Australia just to share with people that I follow Advaita Vedanta.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I do not think we should approach people randomly with an invitation to a Baha'i event, but how could we gather people who did not want to be gathered? If people did not want to learn about the Faith why would they come to the gathering?

I could not answer this question intelligently without knowing the method of gathering. But the very action of inviting someone to gather so you can preach to them about a religion is what I consider to be proselytizing, as without the invitation, they would just be going on about their lives.

At these gatherings, is the same time allocated to each individual to discuss their worldview and why they think it's correct as to the leader of the gathering is discussing Baha'i? If not, the intent is not to share. It's to proselytize.

But what if they mentioned their faith first? Why is it just a-okay for other people to mention their faith, yet when a Baha'i mentions their faith it is considered proselytizing? Sounds like a double standard to me.

Not at all. I've mentioned to my daughter that I follow Advaita Vedanta. Beyond that, she knows nothing more about it that what she's asked me. I intend to keep it that way, as my worldview is personal. If she wants to know more about it, I am glad to share. But would I find teaching her about without her asking out of curiosity it to be impractical and selfish, as I know my views are not for everyone.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

However, if someone moves to a location with the intent of "sharing" their belief, as I see it, there is clearly an attempt to convert ............... It would be preposterous if you expect me to believe that one relocated to a new locale because they just want to share with someone that they're Baha'i.

Faith can only be shared, it is God that doeth as God so chooses to each and every heart. It is only each individual that can make the choice to pursue what interests them.

Muhammad said there is no compulsion in religion, a teaching that has been carried forward in the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

Life is like this discussion, take from what has been said, as you so choose.

Regards Tony

 

[SalixIncendium]

Faith can only be shared...

I didn't get much beyond these four words when reading your post, because this, in and of itself, is the very core of proselytizing.

You suggest the sole purpose of faith is sharing it. I do not see it that way at all. For me "faith" should be a personal thing. One should look inwardly at understanding one's self and in the right way of living. It should not be about telling others how they should live.

 

[stvdv]

What are your thoughts? Is pioneering simply teaching? Or is it proselyting?

I do not have a problem with someone proselytizing (intent to convert me to her religion, IF they mean best for me)

I do have a problem with someone belittling my faith in the process of proselytizing. As if their faith is better than mine.

It all comes down to respect and if proselytizing implies stepping on the heart and feelings of others I call them bad company.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I do not have a problem with someone proselytizing (intent to convert me to her religion, IF they mean best for me)

Yes, but the topic of the thread isn't whether someone has a problem or not with proselytizing. It is whether or not pioneering is proselytizing.

 

[stvdv]

Faith can only be shared, it is God that doeth as God so chooses to each and every heart

I get the feeling that you try to hide your "intent" by telling "God does the conversion". Then in my book it is proselytizing.

 

[stvdv]

I do not have a problem with someone proselytizing (intent to convert me to her religion, IF they mean best for me)

I do have a problem with someone belittling my faith in the process of proselytizing. As if their faith is better than mine.

It all comes down to respect and if proselytizing implies stepping on the heart and feelings of others I call them bad company.

Yes, but the topic of the thread isn't whether someone has a problem or not with proselytizing. It is whether or not pioneering is proselytizing.

Thank for keeping me sharp

What I meant is, that if pioneering means "Bahai is better than your faith", so they belittle my faith, then I call it proselytizing (very clear intent)

 

[Dawnofhope]

As I see it, whether one lives in a town where he is the only Baha’i or one where there are many there is little difference in how a Baha’i conducts himself. He associates with peoples of all faiths and world views in a spirit of love and fellowship.

Like attracts like. Some people like to play football with each other and so will join a team. Other people like to pray and study inspiration writings together. Some like to talk politics, others spirituality. One person may be gregarious and enjoy diverse peoples, another wants to stay within the confines of those most like himself.

Some cultures and people are very sensitive when it comes to have conversations of a spiritual nature, others much more comfortable.

When a Baha’i moves to a new town he will usually make new friends. Maybe some of those friends want to pray and study together. Some will inevitably want to become Baha’is. Others will decide it’s not for them.

I can see how some people view this as perfectly normal while others would feel deeply suspicious and call it proselytising.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Thank for keeping me sharp

What I meant is, that if pioneering means "Bahai is better than your faith", so they belittle my faith, then I call it proselytizing (very clear intent)

What if you were told that your faith is valid, but somehow incomplete without the teachings of Baha'u'llah? Because I've seen that tactic used on this very forum.

 

[SalixIncendium]

As I see it, whether one lives in a town where he is the only Baha’i or one where there are many there is little difference in how a Baha’i conducts himself. He associates with peoples of all faiths and world views in a spirit of love and fellowship.

Like attracts like. Some people like to play football with each other and so will join a team. Other people like to pray and study inspiration writings together. Some like to talk politics, others spirituality. One person may be gregarious and enjoy diverse peoples, another wants to stay within the confines of those most like himself.

Some cultures and people are very sensitive when it comes to have conversations of a spiritual nature, others much more comfortable.

When a Baha’i moves to a new town he will usually make new friends. Maybe some of those friends want to pray and study together. Some will inevitably want to become Baha’is. Others will decide it’s not for them.

I can see how some people view this as perfectly normal while others would feel deeply suspicious and call it proselytising.

I would think that the deciding factor is why the Baha'i has moved to a new town. What was the purpose of the relocation? If it exclusively to share the Baha'i faith, I would say those who feel it's deeply suspicious and call it proselytizing would be justified in doing so. Do you disagree?

 

[stvdv]

What if you were told that your faith is valid, but somehow incomplete without the teachings of Baha'u'llah? Because I've seen that tactic used on this very forum.

I liked the teachings of Bahaullah when reading them.

Exactly what you described happened to me with Bahai's in Holland. I told them upfront that I am allergic to religious people claiming "my way is the highway". They kept it civil for a few month. But I could feel there was something not right, and then I keep bugging and bombarding them with "so you also believe that all religions can lead to God". Finally they could not contain themselves anymore and told me, that how they see it, is, that all religions lead to the ultimate goal, BUT, the final step to take is becoming Bahai.

Big disappointment. I was clear, they should have told me upfront. So them not telling me upfront proved to me "these Dutch Bahai's were proselytizing".

First question I asked @adrian009 was the same. He assured me that this was not his view on Bahai if I remember correctly. So I am giving Bahai another chance.

 

[stvdv]

I liked the teachings of Bahaullah when reading them.

Exactly what you described happened to me with Bahai's in Holland. I told them upfront that I am allergic to religious people claiming "my way is the highway". They kept it civil for a few month. But I could feel there was something not right, and then I keep bugging and bombarding them with "so you also believe that all religions can lead to God". Finally they could not contain themselves anymore and told me, that how they see it, is, that all religions lead to the ultimate goal, BUT, the final step to take is becoming Bahai.

Big disappointment. They should have told me upfront, I was so very clear to them. So them not telling me upfront proved to me proselytizing.

First question I asked @adrian009 was the same. He assured me that this was not his view on Bahai if I remember correctly. So I am giving Bahai another chance.

But in a way it is quite understandable that Dutch Bahai proselytize, because most were Christians before, and proselytizing is big in Dutch Christians

So even if many Bahai's proselytize a lot, does not mean necessarily that Bahaullah was teaching to proselytize.

I did not read in His Book, that finally all have to become Bahai to reach the ultimate goal. But then again, I only read maybe 100 pages of His book.

It happens a lot that the people after the Prophet start interpreting His words in such a way. They somehow like their religion to become "the one and only true religion". Seems a human thing hard to overcome for humans, unless the Prophet specifically tells them "all religions lead to God, so no need to change religion AND no need to proselytize".

 

[Dawnofhope]

I would think that the deciding factor is why the Baha'i has moved to a new town. What was the purpose of the relocation? If it exclusively to share the Baha'i faith, I would say those who feel it's deeply suspicious and call it proselytizing would be justified in doing so. Do you disagree?

I can easily see how one would feel justified.

Have you ever had any experience with Baha’is or Baha’i communities other than online?