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Physicists to conduct first observational test of the multiverse

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
doppelgänger;2590787 said:
I see it just the opposite. CI tells us the cutoff point - when the data adjusts by determining one of several previously uncertain outcomes, it then is, and it makes no sense to look back on a state of uncertainty and imagine the unrealized possibilities as though they had a reality aside from the way a store of data was observing them.

Interactions in "higher scales" are filled with uncertainty too, and no matter how much we want to talk about a theory or model as a "fact" or a truth, we are ultimately making that determination based on our ability to use the information to accomplish some task. It's just that the models we use for "higher scale" objects are useful enough that we tend to gloss over that the problem of induction nevertheless remains.

As I mentioned, ontology divorced from epistemology. The sign is not the thing signified. The map is not the terrain.


CI does not actually explain Collapse. Quantum Decoherence is a description of what happens, but it is not an explanation of what mechanism(s) causes this to happen. Many Worlds gives us a "mechanism" of sorts for explaining what Collapse actually is and gives us a direction to look in for why it might be occurring.


But with that said I am fairly confidant that Many Worlds and Many Minds are wrong. If you look at the other interpretations of QM (Interpretations of quantum mechanics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), then most of them are related. They appear as if they are describing the same or roughly the same thing but in different ways. MW & MM are the odd men out so to speak (Objective Reduction is another odd ball; But it is at least easier to test; no trying to probe alternate dimensions or scan the whole universe for fluctuations in microwave background).

MTF
 

idea

Question Everything

fun stuff!

funny - some use the multiverse to try and explain fine-tuning... no multiverse = fine tuning, multiverse = chance tuning... but then if the multiverse does exist, then every possible thing exists (including God) so either way... even without multiverse - just the sheer amount of time that everything has had to exist .. big bang after big bang? given enough time, everything exists too - and there has been quite a lot of time...
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
fun stuff!

funny - some use the multiverse to try and explain fine-tuning... no multiverse = fine tuning, multiverse = chance tuning... but then if the multiverse does exist, then every possible thing exists (including God) so either way... even without multiverse - just the sheer amount of time that everything has had to exist .. big bang after big bang? given enough time, everything exists too - and there has been quite a lot of time...

Fine tuning argument is mostly a cop out in any context anyways.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
doppelgänger;2618743 said:
Sure it does. Measurement. Determination by orientation to a system of information causes the probability wave to collapse.
What is a measurement though?
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Then explain what you mean more clearly. Also, how is the observer distinguished from the measuree?
More clearly how? It's pretty simple the way I wrote it. If the "observer" and the "measuree" are different stores of information into which the measurement places the particle/wave in relationship, then they are "distinguished" by that simple fact of their difference.

Let's say you roll a six-sided and it comes up 4. You cup your hand over it so I can't see and invite me into the room. I, having not seen the roll, believe as I enter that the die retains the possibilities of 1-6. I choose to rely on you to tell me what number it is. You tell me it's a 2. Assuming I consider your statement reliable, the die is now a 2 in my mind, a 4 in yours, and 1-6 to anyone who hasn't made any determination yet. There's your "multiverse", right there. No need to get all tangled up in irresolvable and untestable metaphysics.

It could simply be that QM unveils a problem of epistemology and not a matter of ontology. In that sense, CI's "incompleteness" is a reflection of the uncertainty between our use of models to predict and explain reality in the bits and pieces by which we observe and organize it in thought, and the totality of the unfragmented flow of energy/matter/whatever that operates aside from thought. It seems incomplete if one shoehorns CI into the box labeled "ontological explanations" and refuses to consider that it might actually just be an epistemological one.

Heisenberg, Physics and Philosophy:

Natural science, does not simply describe and explain nature; it is part of the interplay between nature and ourselves . . . What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning.
Neils Bohr (credited with originally fashioning CI):

There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract physical description. It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature.
John Wheeler:
Useful as it is under everyday circumstances to say that the world exists “out there” independent of us, that view can no longer be upheld.
You're with Einstein, as are proponents of a purely ontological MWI. They cannot accept that the bits of information we string together for predictive models will never represent the full and true state of the universe, but merely will reflect the way we identify things, relate them to one another and use the information so accumulated. Of course, even Einstein died frustrated that he could never offer a purely ontological solution to the epistemological problem revealed by QM.

If "God" is thought and the substratum of grammar (which I think it is), then "God" does, indeed, play dice.
 
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skydivephil

Active Member
OK, I'm no physicist, so forgive me if I merely reveal ignorance.

Why would the multiverse consist of "pocket" cosmos INSIDE ours? I always envisioned them as totally separate....

The first thing to consider is there are different ideas in physics that point to a mulitverse, one is the many worlds interpretation of QM. The work that is being done now has nothing to do with that. Instead its looking for data from a different type of multiverse idea.This comes from inflationary comsology. Inflation was born out of a problem in big bang comsology , called the monopole problem. The big bang seemed to predict particles we dont observe called monopoles. To solve this problem Alan Guth proposed the universe underwent a period of rapid growth called inflation. He then noticed that if this was the case it also solved another set of outstanding provblems in comsology. See here:Inflation (cosmology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia an issue arose as to how inflation ends. It was realised that if the universe was in an inflationary state this would be unstable and decay like a radioactive atom decays. But unlike a radioactive particle the remainder that has not decayed has exponentially expanded. So the original space keeps on expanding with bits of it decaying, creating an infinite amount of "pocket universes" . This is known as the "inflationary multiverse" or "eternal inflation". Inflation is well verified by experimental data. there are somehting like half a dozen test of inflation and most of them have been done and check out. However one major test remains and that is the detection of gravational waves from inflation. http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090415/full/458820a.htmlSome theorists think that inflation may fail this test and be replaced with a cyclic model of cosmology . But I think most peoples money is on inflation.According to Alan Guth almost all verison of inflationary theory are eternal. Howevert until very recently it was thought that this ws untestable as the other pocket universes were beyond our horizon. That changed in 2007/08 with this paper:http://arxiv.org/abs/0712.3038It claims in the early universe our bubble may have collided with another. If we are lucky and this happened we might find a signature of it in the CMB. So this is what is now being looked for. The first serarch was done with WMAP data , the results were four cicrcles that were "best explained" by bubble colliions in the multiverse. But it was not a definitve detection. One problem is WMAp data is not as good as what is to come: Data from the PLanck satellite , this is due in about 2-3 years from now. Hopefully we will have a better idea as to whehter these bubble collisions are real.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
doppelgänger;2618743 said:
Sure it does. Measurement. Determination by orientation to a system of information causes the probability wave to collapse.
The problem is that there is nothing in the math itself that indicates that the wave function does collapse, under any conditions. So we have one interpretation that is consistent with what we seem to experience, and another that is consistent with the mathematical theory.

doppelgänger;2618941 said:
I defined that term right after I used it.
So would a sidelong glance from a mouse suffice?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
fantôme profane;2623370 said:
The problem is that there is nothing in the math itself that indicates that the wave function does collapse, under any conditions. So we have one interpretation that is consistent with what we seem to experience, and another that is consistent with the mathematical theory.

That is a fine observation. Thanks. I wanted to express this but never could do so simply and elegantly.
 
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doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
fantôme profane;2623370 said:
The problem is that there is nothing in the math itself that indicates that the wave function does collapse, under any conditions.
Not a problem for CI. :shrug:


fantôme profane;2623370 said:
So would a sidelong glance from a mouse suffice?
What is the mouse doing with the information obtained in the glance?
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Why is it (necessarily?) "unsupported" by virtue of not being "derived directly from the mathematics"?
Exactly.
:yes:

Mathematics does not address questions of epistemology. It can't. That is where the "incompleteness" lies . . .

The error is thinking that "Physics" is somehow not dependent on Philosophy and can somehow be used in a philosophical vacuum - even though any basic course on the history of science will demonstrate readily that the physical sciences were borne out of Philosophy.
 
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Photonic

Ad astra!
doppelgänger;2624220 said:
Exactly.
:yes:

Mathematics does not address questions of epistemology. It can't. That is where the "incompleteness" lies . . .

The error is thinking that "Physics" is somehow not dependent on Philosophy and can somehow be used in a philosophical vacuum - even though any basic course on the history of science will demonstrate readily that the physical sciences were borne out of Philosophy.

Laws of the Universe exist outside the human experience, Sir. The Universe does not need us to describe it for it to exist.

Physics does lie very much outside epistemology.
 
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