pbuh

[Estro Felino]

It's unjust to assign guilt to people for merely being born into a certain culture.

Actually I was born in the Catholic Faith and I am helping a colleague write a book about Jordan Bruno...and the crimes of the Vatican in those centuries.
Speaking of denouncing the unjust past...

 

[Windwalker]

I disagree. That sounds like some secular progressive version of original sin. It's unjust to assign guilt to people for merely being born into a certain culture.

That's an interesting comparison to the doctrine of original sin. In some senses of the word, it is true, even though I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Garden of Eden. But the principle of "original sin" has some merit in a specific sense. You know the observation how that abusers beget abusers, that violence is passed down generationally? It has to do with environmental conditioning. It has to do with modeling behaviors. So in that sense, sin gets passed down. Not magically, but organically.

So now to systemic racism and it's participants. While I may not be an overt racist, the "home life", namely the culture that I grew up in, is constructed around systems of systemic racism. That is just simply a fact. Redlining, denying to votes to blacks, institutions of racism, etc., etc., etc., are all part of the world we were born into. We inherited that system. And growing up in that system, informs each and every single individual within them, influencing, on subtle, unspoken levels, "the way of the world". Which in terms of race relations, means blacks over here with their own culture and ways, and white over there with theirs, which includes major things like have dominant control of all controlling and governing institutions where laws are passed and monies are controlled.

Think of it no so much as you are a "sinner", a "bad person" and are therefore guilty of a crime you yourself never committed. That, I believe is a distorted idea of what the metaphor of "original sin" really is. Think of it like a frog in a pot of water. It's not aware of the temperature of the water, but its body is surely affected by it. Same thing with us and being in a pot of water called culture, and a culture whose institutions are too high in temperature. We don't know it, but the ones being affected by it directly, namely blacks and other minorities, do.

Am I personally guilty for this? No. That's why the idea of "original sin", sending me to hell for another dude's deeds, is unjust. But held a little more lightly and metaphorically than that, it simply means we are all affected by "sin", that gets handed down to us by the systems that humans created. And if that system created is sinful, that will and does flow down to everyone in the system, both its victims and victors. We all own a piece of that.

Does this make better sense now?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually I was born in the Catholic Faith and I am helping a colleague write a book about Jordan Bruno...and the crimes of the Vatican in those centuries.
Speaking of denouncing the unjust past...

But just because you're Catholic (or were) doesn't mean you're personally responsible for crimes the Vatican has committed. That's my point.

 

[Rival]

I disagree. That sounds like some secular progressive version of original sin. It's unjust to assign guilt to people for merely being born into a certain culture.

Yes. I think what's better than empty apologetic words is talking with your actions. Just be a good representative.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Imagine that you were chosen by God to deliver the message and you have to
face all kind of hardship just to deliver the message and you'll sacrifice your
own self just to deliver the message to people and stand against the world
emperors to do your job, doesn't you deserve a few words of respect,
the prophet in his last words before his death asked people to gather
to deliver his last speech, he said be witnessed I delivered the message.

Good point. When I die, I expect everyone here to refer to me ever more as: SalixIncendium (mhfsbre)*



*may his fashion sense be remembered eternally

 

[Spirit of Light]

Muslims will say PUBH for Mary also. For them, she was the mother of a prophet. Basically for all those whom Muslims respect (including Osama bin Laden and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi).

Do you believe i have respect for a terrorist?

 

[Aupmanyav]

You have not been a Muslim for more than 10 days (I suppose).

 

[Aupmanyav]

Wtf. Stop trolling.

Do you know how many Osamas and Saddams are there in Pakistan? They do respect them.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You have not been a Muslim for more than 10 days (I suppose).

A month or so, why?
Something wrong about it?

 

[FearGod]

Muslims will say PUBH for Mary also. For them, she was the mother of a prophet. Basically for all those whom Muslims respect (including Osama bin Laden and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi).

Are you kidding, or telling lies.
Actually Muslims were fighting the ISIS and Israel were treating the terrorists.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A month or so, why?
Something wrong about it?

I did not say that, but you will learn many things about Islam, now that you are a Muslim.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I did not say that, but you will learn many things about Islam, now that you are a Muslim.

No harm done

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are you kidding, or telling lies.
Actually Muslims were fighting the ISIS and Israel were treating the terrorists.

We may discuss that at some other place. That is not the topic.

 

[Windwalker]

Not to defend those who kill or damage the life of others, but has Christianity denounsed the killing of muslims or non Christian people at the time Christianity was riding around europe killing people who did not convert?

I'm not sure what the official stance of the Vatican is on that. One of our Catholic experts may have better information. They have admitted to wrongs in the past, however. I think most Catholic people themselves however might not be so approving of it, even if it's not an official stance of the church itself.

I think it is helpful if most people consciously recognize that racism and injustice is part of their religious systems, when it has a history of say, killing Hindus because they saw them as less than human. Knowing it is part of the system and its history, means you have to recognize its presence around you and resist its influence over you, shaping you into its image, as you try to fit yourself into that culture. It's about being conscious, rather than unconscious of these things.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm not sure what the official stance of the Vatican is on that. One of our Catholic experts may have better information. They have admitted to wrongs in the past, however. I think most Catholic people themselves however might not be so approving of it, even if it's not an official stance of the church itself.

I think it is helpful if most people consciously recognize that racism and injustice is part of their religious systems, when it has a history of say, killing Hindus because they saw them as less than human. Knowing it is part of the system and its history, means you have to recognize its presence around you and resist its influence over you, shaping you into its image, as you try to fit yourself into that culture. It's about being conscious, rather than unconscious of these things.

I do not disagree with you of what you say here.

I was thinking of something today, and desided after reading your post here to make a new OP with a question.

 

[stvdv]

Islam as a teaching has never done anything wrong.
People who call them self muslims can and have done wrong in the past.
I think it is very important to see the difference here.

I clearly see the difference. And I clearly see some verses that are prone to violent interpretation. I also understand that this happened, because Muhammad got his message in a country where there were wars happening, and he was also a warrior. So, naturally violence verses are there. And Koran is not the easiest to read of all the scriptures, so misinterpretation is quickly happening.

Most important for Muslims IMO is, that they acknowledge that violence is done, because of the verses (whether misread or misused is not important)

 

[Spirit of Light]

I clearly see the difference. And I clearly see some verses that are prone to violent interpretation. I also understand that this happened, because Muhammad got his message in a country where there were wars happening, and he was also a warrior. So, naturally violence verses are there. And Koran is not the easiest to read of all the scriptures, so misinterpretation is quickly happening.

Most important for Muslims IMO is, that they acknowledge that violence is done, because of the verses (whether misread or misused is not important)

I agree with you, if a muslim only memorize the quran without understanding the teaching, it is easy to get lost and do bad instead of good

 

[Katzpur]

A number of years ago, I innocently asked, "How do you pronounce PBUH?" I got a few unexpected laughs for that.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Islam as a teaching has never done anything wrong.
People who call them self muslims can and have done wrong in the past.
I think it is very important to see the difference here.

It's a tangent, so I apologise. But as a former teacher, if I had a class full of kids who decided the earth was flat, I wouldn't have immediately thought 'Well, there was nothing wrong with the teaching, just that those who call themselves students are wrong.'

Never made sense to me at all. That's in no way aimed at Islam, particularly, to be clear.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Not to defend those who kill or damage the life of others, but has Christianity denounsed the killing of muslims or non Christian people at the time Christianity was riding around europe killing people who did not convert?

Some have, sure.
I don't think 'Christianity' can denounce anything, much the same as Islam cannot. But individual Christians and Muslims need to reflect on such things, same as non-Christians/Muslims do.

In case you're interested;
Pope Apologizes for Catholic Sins Past and Present