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Paul's misquotes of the Old Testament

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Jonathan Hoffman, Jan 17, 2013.

  1. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but it doesn't sound intact. So many words that have changed and so many verses pulled out. What does it prove? That Paul had an agenda? Jonathon Hoffman quoted an article earlier:
    What is going on? Is the NT the word of God or the word of Paul? The Bible isn't intact, it's tacky. I always hear that the mistakes in the Bible don't affect any doctrines, but it doesn't count what Paul did as a mistake--should it? "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it..." Unless you're a God ordained re-writer of Scripture? Why does Paul get a free pass to manipulate Scripture?
     
  2. Dale

    Dale Member

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    Your misunderstanding the scriptures of Jeremiah 31:33 and the Hebrew and context of the Scriptures and of the whole Old Testament and Jesus teachings.
    Let's read it again and read other scriptures and the teachings of Jesus to understand the what is being said in Jeremiah 31:33.

    The verse in Jeremiah states 31:33.

    "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

    Christians are saying that this verse means that the Laws of God are done and gone and they are only written in everyone's heart and mind, but this isn't what the scriptures say.

    No where in this verse or it's context does Jeremiah 31:33 say the Law is done and everyone lives threw grace and Jesus never taught this.

    Now let's see what it really says using the Hebrew Lexicon and true meanings that fit the whole context of scriptures.

    Jeremiah 31:33
    "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

    Let's look at the words i will put the Law in their minds.

    I will PUT. The correct translation should be I will consecrate dedicate my Laws in their minds and Heart, this is the correct translation.

    Strong's Hebrew: 5414. נָתַן (nathan) -- to give, put, set

    The word there is nathan it has multiple meanings and one is Figuratively not literally and also it means to l. = consecrate, dedicate to (לְׅ ׳י 1 Samuel 1:11; Exodus 22:29 (E).

    This means true believers will be dedicated to following the Laws, unlike the past.


    Jesus confirms this and following the Laws and anybody who doesn't follow the Laws, Jesus actually says in the Greek, I don't know you that DISREGARD The LAWS, this is exactly what the Greek says.

    22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’…
    Strong's Greek: 458. ἀνομία (anomia) -- lawlessness
    Transliteration: anomia
    Phonetic Spelling: (an-om-ee'-ah)
    Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity

    lawless deed (1), lawless deeds (2), lawlessness (12).
    1. properly, the condition of one without law — either because ignorant of it, or because violating it.
    lawlessness; the utter disregard for God's law

    Jesus Christ teaches that until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle of the Law will disappear. Christ insisted that He did not do away with the Law

    “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17).

    But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does” (James 1:25).


    Book of Revelation confirms, continuing following the Laws.

    So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 12:17)

    Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city

    "Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. " (Revelation 14:12)

    What Laws ? The new Covenant the Laws coming from Ishmael from the Qur'an and Islam.

    Proof Isaiah 42 and the Law from Muhammad and the children of Kedar
    Prophet Muhammad was foretold in Isaiah 42 in the Bible.
    The Lord's Chosen Servant Muhammad
    Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    2He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

    3A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

    4He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    The Hebrew word there for Law is Torah and Jesus never brought and new Torah, Jesus only confirms the Torah.

    11Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

    12Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.

    Kedar is Ishmael and the Arabs and The Lord's Chosen Servant is Muhammad.

    Phonetic Spelling: (kay-dawr')
    Short Definition: Kedar

    2 ancestor of 1, son of Ishmael, Genesis 25:13 = 1 Chronicles 1:29.
    1 tribe of nomads in Arabian desert

    Strong's Hebrew: 6938. קֵדָר (Qedar) -- perhaps "swarthy," a son of Ishmael, also his desc.
    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
    Kedar From qadar; dusky (of the skin or the tent); Kedar, a son of Ishmael; also (collectively) Bedouin (as his descendants or representatives) -- Kedar

    Muhammad in the Gospel of John
    Jesus confirms The Spirit of Truth Muhammad

    The Human Prophet

    A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted the comming of a human Prophet (spirit) after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have used the word "he" for the Holy Spirit. He would have used "it", Read 1 John 4:1-3 below:
    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)

    (also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human, for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.

    Allah knows best.
     
    #82 Dale, Oct 4, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  3. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    And where, other than in Mark 10: 18, Matthew 19: 17, and Luke 18: 18; Do you find the only begotten Son of God, saying through the mouth of his chosen prophet Jesus, that anyone other than the Father in heaven, was good? Pretty much revealing that Paul was correct and in total agreement with the words of the Lord, as spoken through the mouth of Jesus.
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Can you show where Paul said he's quoting Psalms 14:1-3.
    Paul never said he's quoting anything.
    So how do you come by Paul quoting other books of the bible, When Paul never said anything about quoting other books of the bible.
    Now if Paul would haved said he's quoting Psalms 14:1-3, you just might have had something, But seeing Paul said nothing about quoting Psalms 14:1-3.
    All your doing is speculating, Which you have nothing to base anything on, to say Paul's quoting Psalms 14:1-3 or any other books. Unless you can show where Paul said he's quoting from Psalms 14:1-3.or any other books of the bible.
     
  5. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    So what law is Jesus referring to in
    Matthew 5:17-19?

    Here's what you said above
    (Jesus Christ teaches that until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle of the Law will disappear. Christ insisted that He did not do away with the Law
    “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17).

    Can you explain what law Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:17-19.

    You said above (A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet.)

    A Spirit in the New Testament, is not a human Prophet, Where do you get this from.
    You said above ( Muhammad in the Gospel of John
    Jesus confirms The Spirit of Truth Muhammad)


    The Spirit of Truth is not Muhammad, The Spirit of Truth is the Almighty God.

    Where do you get this all from.

    Jesus foretold about a false Prophet in the desert and Muhammad is that false prophet in the desert.

    Matthew 24:24-26--"24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.)

    Note in verse 26, Jesus foretold about a false Prophet in the desert, Muhammad is such Prophet that lived in the desert.
    Jesus showing Muhammad a false Prophet in the desert.
     
  6. Dale

    Dale Member

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    I will answer them all with 100% proofs No problem.
     
  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    You have no proof.
     
  8. Dale

    Dale Member

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    Can you explain what law Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:17-19.

    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Jesus is talking about the Laws and the Prophets teachings, basically the true Laws and teachings of the Prophets.

    According to Christianity, they confirm this, Jesus said Laws 'nomos' and the Prophets teachings.


    The 'Law and the Prophets' which Jesus refers to in verse 17 is a clear reference to the Hebrew Bible – what we now call the Old Testament. This was known as 'The Law, Prophets and Writings' – 'The Law' was the Torah (the 5 Books of Moses), The Prophets (self-explanatory) and the 'Writings' were the wisdom books (Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes etc). So this is a reference to the validity of the Old Testament: the Old Testament continues to have validity,


    The context of the verses is the compete Law and the Prophets the scriptures use the Greek Word 'nomos' here and according to Christian Greek Scholars, this is always referring to the complete Laws of the Prophets and the Torah and not just the Ten Commandments.

    Christians confirms this.
    But – certainly - We must understand that 'entolay' does not mean 'law' - The Greek word used for 'law' in the New Testament is almost invariably 'nomos' (word '3551' in Strongs).


    Now they have a problem, Jesus says he had come to confirm the Laws 'nomos' and the Prophets teachings .

    Christians answer this by saying Jesus was only talking about the Ten commands and not the completed Laws 'nomos' of the 5 books of Moses and the Prophetic books of the Old Testament.

    Let's read the context again.

    The subject of the sentences is the Laws 'nomos' and Prophetic scriptures of the Prophets and not just the Ten commandments, like Christians claim, this is the context, so Christians trying to solve this serious problem by ignoring the full context and subject isn't working, with this scripture.

    Let's brake everything down.

    Subject Law Greek word used is 'nomos' according to Christians always used for the complete Laws and not just the Ten commandments. read above.

    Meaning the Prophets divine messages.
    Subject number two Prophetic scriptures and the teachings in those scriptures. prophétés one who speaks forth by the inspiration of God.


    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill

    Strong's Greek: 3551. νόμος (nomos) -- that which is assigned, hence usage, law
    Transliteration: nomos
    Definition: that which is assigned, usage, law
    Usage: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill

    the prophets
    Strong's Greek: 4396. προφήτης (prophétés) -- a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will)
    prophétés
    Definition: a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will)
    Usage: a prophet, poet; a person gifted at expositing divine truth.
    HELPS Word-studies

    Cognate: 4396 prophḗtēs (from 4253 /pró, "beforehand" and 5346 /phēmí, "elevating/asserting one idea over another, especially through the spoken-word") – properly, one who speaks forth by the inspiration of God; a prophet.

    Not only is Jesus confirming the complete Laws he's also confirming the teachings of the Prophets.

    The Greek doesn't lie.

    Jesus didn't come to destroy the Laws kataluó definition > abolish

    Transliteration: kataluó
    Phonetic Spelling: (kat-al-oo'-o)
    Definition: to destroy, overthrow
    Usage: (lit: I loosen thoroughly), (a) trans: I break up, overthrow, destroy, both lit. and met., (b) I unyoke, unharness a carriage horse or pack animal; hence: I put up, lodge, find a lodging. abolish

    Then Jesus says i have come to fulfill these Laws and scriptures. Greek pléroó definition perform


    pléroó: to make full, to complete
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: pléroó
    , fully carry fully preached
    b. to perfect, consummate;
    c. to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize; α. of matters of duty, to perform, execute


    For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

    Jesus says not even the smallest letters will not be taken away from the Law 'nomos Greek, this is the subject .

    Strong's Concordance disappear become vain, neglect, disregard
    parerchomai: to pass by, to come to
    Original Word: παρέρχομαι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: parerchomai
    Phonetic Spelling: (par-er'-khom-ahee)
    Definition: to pass by, to come to
    Usage: I pass by, pass away, pass out of sight; I am rendered void, become vain, neglect, disregard.


    Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Now Jesus says whoever sets aside one of these least commands, what commands? one of the command the in the Law 'nomos' and the Prophetic scriptures and not the Ten commandments.

    but whoever teaches, ( the complete Laws 'nomos' ) these command 'nomos' will be called great in heaven.

    didaskó: to teach teach instruct, impart knowledge (disseminate information).

    Transliteration: didaskó
    Definition: to teach
    Usage: I teach, direct,

    1321 didáskō (from daō, "learn") – to teach (literally, "cause to learn"); instruct, impart knowledge (disseminate information).

    In the NT, 1321 /didáskō ("teach") nearly always refers to teaching the Scriptures (the written Word of God). The key role of teaching Scripture is shown by its great frequency in the NT, and the variety of word-forms (cognates).

    Jesus is saying i have come to teach and observe the Law 'nomos' and the Prophetic teachings and anyone who's teaching to not observer one of of these least commands of the compete Laws nomos and the Prophetic scriptures will be called the least in heaven, but whoever will teach and observe will be called great.


    Jesus confirms this and following the Laws and anybody who doesn't follow the Laws, Jesus actually says in the Greek, I don't know you that DISREGARD The LAWS, this is exactly what the Greek says.

    22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’…
    Strong's Greek: 458. ἀνομία (anomia) -- lawlessness
    Transliteration: anomia
    Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity

    lawless deed (1), lawless deeds (2), lawlessness (12).
    1. properly, the condition of one without law — either because ignorant of it, or because violating it.
    lawlessness; the utter disregard for God's law

    Jesus Christ teaches that until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle of the Law will disappear. Christ insisted that He did not do away with the Law


    But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does” (James 1:25).

    Christians can't use the excuse of Jesus saying that the Law he's referring to is actually the Ten commandments when the Greek word used is 'nomos' and the least of the commands is from 'nomos and not the Ten commandments.

    Jesus also confirms again in the context by sating certain 'nomos' Laws to fufill and not just the Ten commandments.

    Jesus was speaking of the whole law — read what he goes on to discuss immediately after this statement. What follows in chapters 5-7 has come to be known as the “Sermon on the Mount.” Notice the various parts of the law that he mentions: murder, animal sacrifices, adultery, divorce, swearing of oaths, eye-for-an-eye, love of enemies, etc.
     
    #88 Dale, Oct 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  9. Dale

    Dale Member

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    If Jesus was saying there's false prophets coming and a true prophet and you should test their fruits, if your saying that a true prophet wasn't coming in the future, then why did Jesus tell his Disciples and everyone to judge a true prophet by his fruits?

    If Jesus actually didn't teach of a coming true prophet, then why the test of fruits?

    In this context of the scriptures, Jesus is actually telling everyone about a true prophet coming and beware of those false prophets, to come.

    A Tree and its Fruit

    (Matthew 12:33-37; Luke 6:43-45)

    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    The simple answer is, Jesus did teach the coming of another prophet like himself and told everyone by his fruits you will know him.

    Also the Old Testament teaches about a Prophet from Arabia and so does religious scriptures around the world and they actually teach and prophesy about an Arabian prophet.

    Every nation and tribe had a prophet and messenger to teach the truth, just because their scriptures were changed and now they believe in multiple Gods, doesn't mean their original true teachings don't say there's only one creator and he's not a man or any created thing.

    Qur'an 35:24
    Verily We have sent thee (Muhammad) in truth as a bearer of glad tidings and as a warner:

    And there never was a people without a warner having lived among them (in the past). Qur'an 16:36
    For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle (with the Command) "Serve Allah and eshew
    Evil
    ":

    Of the people were some whom Allah guided and some on whom Error became inevitably (established).
    So travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). Qur'an 4:164

    And Messengers (Prophets who received revealed books) We have mentioned unto thee (Muhammad) before

    And Messengers We have not mentioned unto thee;
    And Allah spake directly unto Moses.

    Example Hinduism and their scriptures and original teachings of a single creator and prophecies about Muhammad and the coming of an Arabian prophet.

    In Vedas it is mentioned that there is only one God who is body less and whose image can't be made.


    Atharva 13.4[2]19-20

    There is no second God, nor a third, nor is even a fourth spoken of

    There is no fifth God or a sixth nor is even a seventh mentioned.

    There is no eighth God, nor a ninth. Nothing is spoken about a tenth even.

    This unique power is in itself. That Lord is only one, the only omnipresent. It is one and the only one


    It [Vedic Religion] recognizes but one God.

    Vedas call upon to offer worship due only to God and no one else; to nothing else. It is clearly stated in Rig-Veda as under.


    Yeka yeva namasyo vikvidah| Atharva 2.2.1

    Among all the men and women, there is only one. Who is worthy of adoration, and worthy of worship too.

    Na tvaam anyo divyo na parthivo na jato na janishyathe|

    Yajurveda 27.36

    Oh God! There is nobody like you either in this world or the world beyond. No body equal to you is born as yet nor will be born ever in future also.

    There are people who are under illusion that there are many Gods after coming across words like Indra, Agni, and Varuna etc. But these words that signify both God and things other than Gods should not mislead the seeker after truth’ with this purpose in view, the Vedas declare clearly:-


    [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4“na tasya pratima asti”
    There is no image of Him.”

    [Yajurveda 32:3]“shudhama poapvidham”
    “He is bodyless and pure.”
    [Yajurveda 40:8]“Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste”
    “They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements” (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). “They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti.”

    [Yajurveda 40:9]Sambhuti means created things, for example table, chair, idol, etc.



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    Next verses .Mathew Chapter 24 verse 26

    Note in verse 26, Jesus foretold about a false Prophet in the desert, Muhammad is such Prophet that lived in the desert.
    Jesus showing Muhammad a false Prophet in the desert.

    Jesus isn't talking or teaching about true prophets coming in this context, he's actually teaching about his second coming and false Christ, claiming to be him.

    Jesus in the context was referring to himself, when he says, if they say he's in the desert don't go, Jesus in the context wasn't talking about another prophet, but his second coming and goes on to discuss judgment day and the son of man coming in the clouds, your misunderstanding the scriptures.

    Jesus was telling everyone that if they say, Jesus is in the desert don't believe them, because he's teaching and saying that he's coming in the clouds and not on earth like the movies claim, and people claim.

    Now if these sayings and teachings about the son of man coming in the clouds, are in fact actual truths, or allegorical visions are up to debate, because lots of this stuff is copied from Daniel and Enoch is the son of man and others are, in the Bible, and these sayings could just be allegorical visions of Gods power and not historical future facts.

    Example a Beast with eyes on the inside and outside with 7 horns, this sounds like a Godzilla movie or something strange like a fairy tale, like Harry Potter.

    To me God doesn't work this way and these strange monster movie stories are just allegorical stories to teach certain things or made up lies and Revelation isn't an actual Bible prophecy, but was copied from Daniel and Jesus isn't coming down from the clouds, like Thor or other Avengers.


    Much more could be said, but I think that should do. So everyone, beware of the dragon!!!!
     
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