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Paul's misquotes of the Old Testament

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Jonathan Hoffman, Jan 17, 2013.

  1. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Active Member

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    What made me suspicious of the Gen 15:6 translation which Paul quotes in Romans 4:3 is that Paul so often misquotes paassages from the Old Testament (Tanakh).

    Another example is Romans 3:10
    just as it is written:
    “There is no one righteous, not even one,

    This is a misquote of Psalms 14:1-3


    Can anybody find more misquotes from Paul?
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I love quote-mining. :biglaugh:
    Did I mention selection bias? ​
     
  3. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Active Member

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  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That's nice.

    But tell me, (a) on what grounds do you claim the Romans 3:10 is intended as a direct quote from Psalm 14 rather than a reference to Kohelet (Ecclesiastes) 7:20. and (b) why would Paul intentionally 'misquote' readily available texts, thereby setting himself up for ridicule and exposure?
     
  5. Breathe

    Breathe Hostis humani generis

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    Presupposing these are "misquotes" of the verses in question as the OP believes...

    Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
    Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? &#8220;Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.&#8221;

    Psalms 14:3
    All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.

    Romans 3:10
    10 As it is written:
    &#8220;There is no one righteous, not even one;


    (NIV Quotes)


    ... what's the problem besides slightly different choices of words?
     
  6. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Active Member

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    Excerpt from The Law stands

    Romans 3
    When someone suggests to an evangelical Christian that the Law of God still stands today, one of the first defenses to refute the suggestion comes from Romans 3. We are quickly informed that no one is able to keep the Law, and all are guilty of breaking it and are therefore forever unrighteous.
    As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one". Romans 3:10
    This verse is part of Paul's quote from Psalm 14 that he used as proof that man cannot keep the Law to become righteous. Here is the entire piece of Scripture that Paul uses in Romans 3.
    As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seek after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:10-18
    This is Paul's apparent direct quote from Scripture that is supposed to prove to us that no one is righteous, but all are full of evil. Now guess what? No such passage exists! What Paul quotes is a compilation of no less than six separate passages that have been jerked out of their original context from the Psalms and the book of Isaiah, given an interpretation that cannot be found there, and strung together to appear as one quote. We have seen this deceptive practice of Paul's before when we looked at Romans 9 where he pasted together two short passages from Genesis and Malachi concerning Jacob and Esau!
    Paul's accuracy in quoting from the Psalms is no better. The first passage he quotes in verses 10-12 comes from Psalm 14. Here is his version again.
    As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one." Romans 3:10-12
    Now here is the passage quoted accurately, and in its context.
    The fool has said in his heart, "there is no God". They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, for God is with the generation of the RIGHTEOUS. Psalm 14:1-5
    Guess what? In David's picture there are no atheistic fools who do good! This passage is obviously not speaking of every human being, but of a distinct group of people whom David describes as fools, atheists, workers of abominations, corrupt, ignorant, and workers of iniquity. Of course, not one of them do good. And these evil people are contrasted with a second group of real people known as "my people" and "the generation of the righteous". Right there in this very Psalm that Paul quotes from, there are obviously those whom God calls "righteous"! This is hardly the picture Paul wants us to get from this Psalm. Notice also Paul's embellishment of this passage. He would have us believe the phrase, "no, not one" is used twice when it is only used once. The first time Paul uses the phrase is where it doesn't exist, and it is coupled with the word "righteous". This word does not exist in this part of the Psalm, or anywhere near the words "no, not one". The word "righteous" only shows up later in verse 5, and there it directly implies that there are those who are righteous! So much for "no, not one".
    In Paul's string of quotes, he continues to take snippets of Scripture out of their context from Psalm 5:9, Psalm 140:3, Psalm 10:7, Isaiah 59:7,8, and Psalm 36:1. In each and every case, the unrighteous individuals spoken of in these passages are specifically evil men, and in the greater context of these passages, the evil men are contrasted with those who are called "the righteous", "the upright", and "the innocent". Please check for yourself. Not only is there no support for Paul's picture in these passages, but in their proper context, the exact opposite is firmly established.
    Paulinists like to refer to this practice of gluing a number of passages together as "pearl-stringing". Considering the fact that each part is given what is a lie for an interpretation, a more fitting metaphor than "pearls" should be used to describe what Paul is actually stringing together!
     
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  7. Ramjit

    Ramjit New Member

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    We have to remember that Paul was not one of Jesus original disciples.
    What makes Paul a fascinating study is that he claims that no man taught him anything regarding Jesus. Jesus taught him directly by revelation.

    But if this is so, why do the teachings of Paul and Jesus differ?

    You are correct- Paul did deliberately mis-apply Psalm 14 to include all people when in fact, the psalm refers only to those who have no god.

    Compare to what Jesus said:

    "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

    Obviously there were some righteous, therefore Paul misspoke.
     
  8. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Active Member

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    I think Paul and Jesus disagreed because Paul preached a different gospel.
    And we have no reason to believe Paul was one of Jesus' apostles other than his own boasting word.

    Jesus may have made a prophecy about Paul in
    John 5:43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept 74 me. If someone else comes in his own name, you will accept 75 him

    And the proof is the most of the NT contains the letters of Paul
     
  9. Ramjit

    Ramjit New Member

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    We will find another misquote in the book of Hebrews.
    While we do not know who wrote this book, it has been attributed to Paul or one of Paul's disciples.

    In Hebrews chapter 10 we find:

    “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
    But a body You have prepared for Me.
    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
    You had no pleasure.
    7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
    In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
    To do Your will, O God.’”


    This quote comes from Psalm 40, however the psalm says:

    Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
    My ears You have opened.
    Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
    7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
    In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
    8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
    And Your law is within my heart.”


    One has to wonder why Paul (an educated Pharisee) changed verse 5.
     
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  10. Ramjit

    Ramjit New Member

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    I agree with you.
    I also find that modern Christianity is based on Paul's gospel rather than that of Jesus.
     
  11. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Active Member

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    I think the NT was Pauluted by Paul.

    . . . as did many others:
    See Notable Quotes
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    "Modern Christianity" is the same OT/NT as it always was.
     
  13. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Active Member

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    Please elaborate.
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Huh? It's an obvious truth.
     
  15. Ramjit

    Ramjit New Member

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    I completely agree with Jeremy Bentham
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And it shows. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Sorry, but your honestly not particularly good at this.

    Throwing around the term "misquote" is rather bush league and demonstrates a rather embarrassing ignorance of the text. A recommendation: pick up the Sefer Ha-Aggadah, read through it a bit, and come back when you have a somewhat better understanding of how prooftext was typically employed.

    "misquote" ... :biglaugh:
     
  18. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Active Member

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    Sorry, I will not allow you to bully me, and your condescending attitude is offensive, and it also appears you are telling me to leave the forum, and that is also inappropriate as I have not violated any of the forum's rules.
     
    #18 Jonathan Hoffman, Jan 17, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
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  19. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    The "NT" that we know of wasn't even the exact same in the Muratorian fragment, which also shows that certain books which were included in later compilations even as far as the 4th century in the Sinaiticus like the Shepherd of Hermas, were disputed as their authenticity. Clement also went by the Apocalypse of Peter. Considering that Gnostic Christians may have been the majority, the "orthodox canon" may have been a minority set until they gained regional dominance later. Some of the "Acts" like Acts of Peter were considered "NT" for many even "orthodox" leaders. So it wasn't "always" the same set for everyone. There was no official "NT". There were various groups with various sets of canon, none of which can be confirmed to have had the exact same NT as today until centuries after.

    We also don't even know if the "OT" was the exact same back then before the Masoretes. We do know that Iraneus and Clement and others viewed Enoch and other books as canonical. We also know that even the early Talmudists may have referenced Sirach as Scripture. We know the Orthodox and Ethiopian Church considered the "Apocrypha" to be just as "OT" as the rest. We also know that groups like the Ebionites used a different version of Matthew, which Jerome also says was a later version of the original "Gospel to the Hebrews". And we know that many Nazarenes and Ebionites rejected the Pauline literature. It very well could have been that the Pauline letters weren't considered canonical even by Justin Martyr's time until Iraneus's, but the trend may have been sparked by Marcion.



    So no, the OT/NT was not "Always the same", unless you mean "always" several centuries after the events in question.
     
  20. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    :shrug:
     
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