Passages challenging Calvinism

[Brickjectivity]

Is "Same Faith Debates" designed for if you yourself are in the same faith or if you disagree with a certain position and want to talk only to those of said position?

You can challenge other faiths to debate there and make it just you and the Calvinists if that's what you'd prefer.

 

[Kilk1]

Make sure that you study Calvinism vs Arminianism. It is wise to know the Bible yourself, not just the argument of some Pastor who is just paroting what his professors in Bible College told him. You are judged by your own beliefs and deeds and the words of someone else will not garner you a pass. I'm less confident in the books of Acts on through the rest of the NT. I'm probably not allowed to participate further in this discussion because some of the confused here think I am solely Muslim.

I agree; we shouldn't just agree with whatever some preacher tells us without evidence. That's why I've studied the issue from both sides for so long. Even now, as I'm seeing potential weakness with Calvinism, I'm still wanting to hear what the other side as to say in a way where I can interact with them.

 

[Kilk1]

You can challenge other faiths to debate there and make it just you and the Calvinists if that's what you'd prefer.

Well, so far, my way isn't working. No Calvinist has commented on those passages. How about I wait it out, and if nothing comes up in the next few days, I'll start a new thread? Would that be okay? Thanks.

 

[David T]

@km

What do you mean? I apologize.

Well lets start with the question what is reality? Seems resomable enough doesnt it? What is its problem..

 

[Terry Sampson]

I've seen some of James White's debates on Calvinism and on the Trinity. I don't think I've seen as much as you do.

As a retiree, I have plenty of free time to spend on such things. I like to watch him to "keep a pulse" on what the Reformed Calvinists are up to and who they're chewing on at the time, ... and to keep my brain cells active working through challenging things he and the other Reformed Calvinists believe and express. Note: James White was a contributor to the New American Standard Bible and from time to time he mentions important players and references in Christianity and, occasionally, in Islam.

P.S. Out of curiosity, what Christian sect do you have the most in common with?

 

[Dell]

Hello, all! For many months, maybe a year, I've been studying debates for and against Calvinism. While passages such as Romans 9 are claimed by Calvinists to support their position, I'd like to hear your view on at least one of the passages challenging Calvinism. (Quotations are from the New King James Version.)

Luke 8:4-15
This is the parable of the sower. Calvinism holds that everyone is born totally, inherently depraved. In this state, they cannot receive the word of God. The only way out of this, in their system, is if the Holy Spirit performs a direct operation on sinners, switching their hearts from being completely sinful to permanently faithful. However, Jesus' parable comparing the word of God's effect on different hearts to seed's effect on different types of soil suggests that human nature is more complicated than this.

The first type of soil, the wayside (vv. 5, 12), is the closest to sounding totally depraved in the sense that it doesn't receive the word. Furthermore, the good ground (vv. 8, 15) is similar in effect to the Calvinistic view of a regenerated heart in that it remains faithful. However, there are four, not just two, hearts. The rocky ground (vv. 6, 13) is the most powerful heart of the four to contradict Calvinism. Those with this heart aren't totally, inherently depraved because they receive the word--"receive the word with joy" (emphasis mine), in fact. But they aren't permanently converted either, as Calvinists say the regenerate are, since they only "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (v. 13).

Does this suggest that not everyone is totally depraved and that once you're saved, you're not necessarily always saved?

Jeremiah 18:1-10
Here, God discusses how a potter begins "making something at the wheel" (v. 3). However, the vessel "was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make" (v. 4). Notice that while the potter was going to make one thing, the marring of the vessel led him to remake it "into another vessel." In the same way, God says that if He decrees to destroy a nation (i.e., make them into a vessel of dishonor) but they repent, then He'll change His plans for them (vv. 5-8). The same works in reverse as well (vv. 9-10).

Does this mean God can decree something without it coming to pass if freewill decisions on the part of man cause Him to change His mind?

Romans 11:16-24
While Romans 9 talks about election, Calvinists and non-Calvinists commonly argue about whether it's an election of specific individuals (what Calvinists believe) or an election of a corporate entity (Israel or the church). Chapter 11 compares God's people to a cultivated olive tree (vv. 16-24). Many (but not all) Israelites (i.e., the branches) were cut off from the tree. Instead, new branches from a wild, non-cultivated olive tree (representing Gentiles, the class who weren't God's people) were grafted into the cultivated one.

The individual Gentiles (i.e., the branches that were grafted into the cultivated tree) could become thrilled that they're in (v. 19). However, Paul explains: "Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear" (v. 20, emphasis mine). The new standard of becoming God's chosen people would be determined by faith vs. unbelief, instead of being a Jew vs. Gentile.

Paul clearly intends this to warn those grafted in. "For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either" (v. 21). Again, they were grafted in "by faith" (v. 20), and yet there's a possibility that they wouldn't be spared (v. 21). God will only bring "goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off" (v. 22). And those who were cut off could become believers and be grafted in again (vv. 23-24).

Does this suggest 1) that God elected the body, the cultivated tree, and 2) that it's possible for individuals (branches) who stand "by faith" (v. 20) to lose their faith (and thus, salvation), not being spared (v. 21)? Again, you don't have to respond to all of these, but if you post, please give your thoughts on at least one of the three above passages. Thanks!

Calvanism or the doctrines of predestination would seem to fit tightly with the doctrine of Gods attribute of being Omniscient. To know the perfect end would mean future events have been already played out and we are repeating it. OR minds of people are being manipulated to make events happen as God desires. The latter seems more observed by the example of Judas ... the devil possessing him.. throws out free will for Judas. He was used for betrayal. He may have been a complete crook or backstabber naturally but to be possessed for the purpose of betraying Jesus, how can he be faulted for that? Yet Jesus was betrayed as Jesus said as recorded in the Bible.

 

[Kilk1]

As a retiree, I have plenty of free time to spend on such things. I like to watch him to "keep a pulse" on what the Reformed Calvinists are up to and who they're chewing on at the time, ... and to keep my brain cells active working through challenging things he and the other Reformed Calvinists believe and express. Note: James White was a contributor to the New American Standard Bible and from time to time he mentions important players and references in Christianity and, occasionally, in Islam.

P.S. Out of curiosity, what Christian sect do you have the most in common with?

I didn't know James White contributed to the NASB. That's interesting! Sect probably wouldn't be the word I'd use, but the answer would be the churches of Christ.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Are you partially a muslim ?

I'm Abrahamic Religionist, meaning I understand Christianity, Judaism, and Islam at least somewhat. I do not fit in their dumb little cubby holes. Since when it is a crime to study all three religions plus Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, and Science too?

 

[Terry Sampson]

I didn't know James White contributed to the NASB.

 

[Duke_Leto]

I'm Abrahamic Religionist, meaning I understand Christianity, Judaism, and Islam at least somewhat. I do not fit in their dumb little cubby holes. Since when it is a crime to study all three religions plus Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, and Science too?

I think confusion is understandable, since all those religions exclude each other — perhaps with the exception of Judaism and Zoroastrianism. One has to deviate from orthodoxy to syncretize them.

 

[shmogie]

I'm Abrahamic Religionist, meaning I understand Christianity, Judaism, and Islam at least somewhat. I do not fit in their dumb little cubby holes. Since when it is a crime to study all three religions plus Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, and Science too?

Did I say it was a crime ? Whose dumb little cubby holes do you mean ? Christ´s ?

 

[Kilk1]

Thanks for all the posts, everyone! However, I haven't received anything dealing with Luke 8, Jeremiah 18, and Romans 11 so far, as I detailed in the OP. Are there any Calvinists who can explain their understanding of these passages for me? Thanks!

 

[Ellen Brown]

I think confusion is understandable, since all those religions exclude each other — perhaps with the exception of Judaism and Zoroastrianism. One has to deviate from orthodoxy to syncretize them.

Um, well then, perhaps Religious Anthropology takes my fancy then? None of the religions feel binding to me because they all reject me. Perhaps none of us understand the Creator that well? It seems to me that most belief systems I have encountered concoct their own rule set to the exclusion of God and that soon after they form?

I feel blessed by the deity that they exclude and it is beyond explanation for me.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Did I say it was a crime ? Whose dumb little cubby holes do you mean ? Christ´s ?

I have no issue with Jesus the Christ. IMHO we tread a narrow edge with Christian Theology. In the 10 Commandments, God asserts that he is the ONE God, most supreme. Yet in much Christian belief they have made Jesus to be God. I fear they are confused. The Mormons did not give me the idea to not believe in the Trinity. It did not make sense to me the first time I heard of the idea. Talk to any Pastor and most will tell you that parishioners do not read the Bible, and actually study it.

In my prayers I'm very cautious about "Hallowed be thy name, on Earth as it is in Heaven". And yet, I am very well aware that Jesus is said to have said, "No man cometh to the Father but by Me". I think it is lunacy that Jesus is God also. I long for the day when, "We shall see him as he is". It is not yet that time. In the meantime, we squabble about these things and forget to do the things that we have been told to do. We are to love Mercy and Justice and walk Humbly by our Creator. Why is that so impossible for most humans, including myself?

 

[shmogie]

I have no issue with Jesus the Christ. IMHO we tread a narrow edge with Christian Theology. In the 10 Commandments, God asserts that he is the ONE God, most supreme. Yet in much Christian belief they have made Jesus to be God. I fear they are confused. The Mormons did not give me the idea to not believe in the Trinity. It did not make sense to me the first time I heard of the idea. Talk to any Pastor and most will tell you that parishioners do not read the Bible, and actually study it.

In my prayers I'm very cautious about "Hallowed be thy name, on Earth as it is in Heaven". And yet, I am very well aware that Jesus is said to have said, "No man cometh to the Father but by Me". I think it is lunacy that Jesus is God also. I long for the day when, "We shall see him as he is". It is not yet that time. In the meantime, we squabble about these things and forget to do the things that we have been told to do. We are to love Mercy and Justice and walk Humbly by our Creator. Why is that so impossible for most humans, including myself?

Because we are not as we were created. We are distracted and led astray by the forces of evil. If Christ was not God, then He was just another sinful human whose life had no redemption for anyone.

The Mormons are not representative of most Christians, their prophet is just another in a line of pretenders, a line started by Mohammed.

I would be happy to share with you some ideas regarding the Godhead, if you choose. We humans many times want to put God in our tiny little boxes that fit our rationality and logic, failing to recognize that God is not bound by anything, especially what we think He should be,

 

[Ellen Brown]

Because we are not as we were created. We are distracted and led astray by the forces of evil. If Christ was not God, then He was just another sinful human whose life had no redemption for anyone.

The Mormons are not representative of most Christians, their prophet is just another in a line of pretenders, a line started by Mohammed.

I would be happy to share with you some ideas regarding the Godhead, if you choose. We humans many times want to put God in our tiny little boxes that fit our rationality and logic, failing to recognize that God is not bound by anything, especially what we think He should be,

I would feel privileged to share with you. I think that God is what he decides to be and that can be anything he wants.

 

[Kilk1]

Update: If no one replies today dealing with the three passages I cited in the OP, I'm going to go with @Brickjectivity's idea and start a new thread in the "Same Faith Debates" sub-forum. After all, it's Calvinists in particular that I'm wanting to talk to.

 

[Shiranui117]

Update: If no one replies today dealing with the three passages I cited in the OP, I'm going to go with @Brickjectivity's idea and start a new thread in the "Same Faith Debates" sub-forum. After all, it's Calvinists in particular that I'm wanting to talk to.

The only problem is that I don't know how many Calvinists are actually on the forums at all. The number of Christians belonging to mainstream denominations seems to have been declining over the years on this site.

 

[Kilk1]

The only problem is that I don't know how many Calvinists are actually on the forums at all. The number of Christians belonging to mainstream denominations seems to have been declining over the years on this site.

You might be right about this site. If people who believe in the inspiration of the Bible are few on this site, I may need to go elsewhere. I'll still try the "Same Faith Debates" option, but if that doesn't work, it's hasta la vista for now.

 

[Kilk1]

Everyone, I started a thread here now: Calvinists only: How do you interpret these passages?