Parents Rights On Transgender Policy

[icehorse]

What does that mean?

As I'm sure you've encountered, sometimes posters will call for citations just as a tactic to derail or obfuscate a conversation. So the question often comes up, what needs citations and what is common knowledge or can easily be discovered using a search engine.

I understand it's not always an easy call, but I can assure you that I don't waste my time here by debating in bad faith.

 

[Koldo]

Comparing me to this nimrod because we both belong to a group called 'parent' is like comparing me to Stalin because we both belong to a group called 'atheist'.

But no one is making that comparison.

 

[SkepticThinker]

But what if the issue for an individual isn't any sort of gender issue at all?

My point is that I believe the job of the therapist is to converse with a patient, and listen to them BEFORE categorizing the patient's problem (or lack thereof).

Are you under the impression that therapists are not doing this? That they don't know what they're doing?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I said the "healthcare industry", I was not commenting on the DSM.

The "healthcare industry" includes people who wrote and follow the DSM.

 

[Orbit]

Comparing me to this nimrod because we both belong to a group called 'parent' is like comparing me to Stalin because we both belong to a group called 'atheist'.

No one compared you to this. It's to show the prevailing atmosphere in the US and the real danger this policy could put kids in.

 

[esmith]

Do you see an equivalence between a child misbehaving and a child coming out as trans? Do you see absolutely no distinction that would justify treating both cases differently?

Nope.
Why do you see it differently?

 

[esmith]

When kids misbehave it is a sign of the parents having failed to socialise their kids correctly and without intervention it can be a path to a criminal career. Being transgender or gay is neither the fault of the parents nor criminal - even though that is exactly what those making such laws are implying.

Then why to you object to the parents being informed?

 

[icehorse]

The "healthcare industry" includes people who wrote and follow the DSM.

We're using set theory in this conversation. From that perspective I can ask without any snark, so what?

 

[SkepticThinker]

We're using set theory in this conversation. From that perspective I can ask without any snark, so what?

You said:
"Indeed, the healthcare industry is incoherent on this front. WHO recently abandoned "dysphoria" in favor of "incongruence" ?!"

The "healthcare industry" turns to the guidance of the DSM on such matters. Those guidelines are far from "incoherent" as you seem to believe.

 

[icehorse]

You said:
"Indeed, the healthcare industry is incoherent on this front. WHO recently abandoned "dysphoria" in favor of "incongruence" ?!"

The "healthcare industry" turns to the guidance of the DSM on such matters. Those guidelines are far from "incoherent" as you seem to believe.

I never said the DSM was incoherent.

I said the healthcare industry is incoherent.

 

[Heyo]

Then why to you object to the parents being informed?

What would that imply? Teach your child not to be gay? Send them to "conversion therapy"?
When parents receive a note that their kid is misbehaving that says, "it's a problem, fix it". And some parents may see that also with being LGBTQ. A pupil should have the chance to come out to their parents when they decide it is time.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I never said the DSM was incoherent.

I said the healthcare industry is incoherent.

The "healthcare industry" turns to the guidance of the DSM on such matters. Those guidelines are far from "incoherent" as you seem to believe.

 

[ZooGirl02]

Personally, I feel like it is the parent's right to know about any changes in a child's pronouns or gender identity, unless there is a good reason to believe that revealing this information will result in danger to the child.

 

[icehorse]

The "healthcare industry" turns to the guidance of the DSM on such matters. Those guidelines are far from "incoherent" as you seem to believe.

Here's a recent article that might be of interest:

Denmark Joins the List of Countries Who Have Sharply Restricted Youth Gender Transitions

 

[SkepticThinker]

w

Here's a recent article that might be of interest:

Denmark Joins the List of Countries Who Have Sharply Restricted Youth Gender Transitions

Which speaks to the guidelines being "incoherent," how, exactly?

 

[icehorse]

w

Which speaks to the guidelines being "incoherent," how, exactly?

Wow, you read that long and complex article very quickly!

As the article says, yet another European country (in this case Denmark), has sharply altered it's approach to treating young people suffering from gender dysphoria. At this point, the US's position is inconsistent (i.e. incoherent) with a growing number of European country's positions. So there is no "medical consensus" for you to rely on for your argument. If you want to limit yourself to the US, you're on slightly better footing, but not rock solid. And remember that the US's healthcare industry is second rate at best compared to Europe.

 

[YmirGF]

This really is the problem, being transgender can't really be compared to an illness, or an injury, or other health problems. I understand it is difficult for the people experience it, especially when they are young, but it is a unique situation.

Parents are the legal guardians of the children, trans or not. For the school to witness these changes and say nothing is almost a dereliction of duty, in my view, especially given the uniqueness of this situation. We are not talking about Johnny skinning a kneecap on the playground, but a fundamental, life-altering shift in their personality. Granted, I am willing to put some onus on parents for NOT noticing something was up with Suzi.

At the same time, given how fickle kids can be, I wouldn't want teacher's to HAVE to report a given situation if kids ever started TROLLING this. "Hi, Mr. Bishop, your son Johnny came out in class today saying that he identifies as a gazelle. Rule 43463.433B Clause 345.43 legally requires us to inform you of any personality changes in your child."

Kidding aside, likewise, if a child begins to come out at school as trans, this is such a big issue that the parents MUST be informed unless there are CLEAR reasons why they should not be consulted or advised. I watch a video the other day of a mother who was at a school to pick up her kids. She had a "No tresspass" order ALREADY in place, so she obviously is a handful. The police officer explained to her MANY times that she was not allowed on site. She insisted she wanted to get her kids. Long story short, YES, some parents are dangerous crackheads.

I side with @lewisnotmiller here, though, and would suggest most parents are good people and have a relatively good relationship with their kids. It would be desirable to get those parents "on side" and attempt to get help for the child. Taking the choice away from parents (to become involved) should be a last resort for only the worst cases.

Does any of that make a lick of sense?

Then I think we are much in agreement. I have been arguing against teachers being required by law to inform parents.

If you were to ask me if teachers should be allowed to inform parents ....

... then I would start pulling at my hair and making strange grunting sounds.

Because I really really don't know. All I can say is that teachers (or anyone) should think very carefully before doing that.

You got me here too. If they left this open, I'd be a lot less queasy about the whole issue.
Allow the teachers to have the option to consult with the parent(s) if deemed necessary?

 

[fantome profane]

Parents are the legal guardians of the children, trans or not. For the school to witness these changes and say nothing is almost a dereliction of duty, in my view,

What do you mean by "almost a dereliction of duty"? Is it or isn't it?

What we are talking about here is using the force of law to force teachers to report the personal emotional conditions of adolescents. Which would have to include some kind of enforcement measures (losing their job? going to prison?) You can't use the word "almost" when dealing with a legal obligation, anymore than you can use the word "almost" when discussing pregnancy.


In my view it is the duty of teachers to teach. And yes, they have a duty of care. but they do not have a duty to report on the personal emotional inner life of all of their students. If the student is doing well in school, not causing disruptions or having discipline issues, and there are no health and safety issues, then the teacher is successfully doing their job, and we can't reasonably ask any more than that.


(btw, show me an adolescent who is not experiencing emotional and behavioural changes and I will know you didn't look)

 

[YmirGF]

What do you mean by "almost a dereliction of duty"? Is it or isn't it?

Fair enough. It is a dereliction of their duty to witness profound character changes in a child and say nothing to their parents about those profound changes. We are not talking "mere puberty" here.

What we are talking about here is using the force of law to force teachers to report the personal emotional conditions of adolescents. Which would have to include some kind of enforcement measures (losing their job? going to prison?) You can't use the word "almost" when dealing with a legal obligation, anymore than you can use the word "almost" when discussing pregnancy.

Yeah, yeah. OK. Methinks the horsey is quite dead.

In my view it is the duty of teachers to teach.

They might want to give that a try. Current testing scores are pretty bloody dismal.

And yes, they have a duty of care. but they do not have a duty to report on the personal emotional inner life of all of their students. If the student is doing well in school, not causing disruptions or having discipline issues, and there are no health and safety issues, then the teacher is successfully doing their job, and we can't reasonably ask any more than that.

For the most part, I do agree. But when they notice profound behavioural changes, it is very much a mental health issue.
Edit: At the same time, I do agree that mom and dad should have noticed something odd in Suzi's behavior long before this point.

(btw, show me an adolescent who is not experiences emotional and behavioural changes and I will know you didn't look)

In councilling, the above is referred to as minimzing. Such rhetorical techniques are used to compare two things as if they are of equal importance, where in fact the two things are very, very different.

 

[fantome profane]

For the most part, I do agree. But when they notice profound behavioural changes, it is very much a mental health issue.

No, that does not fly with me. You can't just define transgender as a mental health issue. Nor can you have unqualified people diagnosing a mental health issue.

This is a personal private issue.

And I am telling you, if you make it a law, that people can lose their job (or worse) for not reporting, teachers will err on the side of keeping their jobs. They will report anything and everything. Half the students in the class will get called out for being too effeminate or too butch. We well be getting into forced conformity and behaviour control. Nothing good will come from this.


This is a personal issue, the school should not come between the parents and their child.