Pantheism/Panentheism vs Islamic Monotheism

[Madhuri]

I would like to ask you guys what the concept of evil is in your religion? Is it a part of God, like everything else? Or is it an absence of good like St.Augustine put it? or rather a consequence of free will?

There is no 'evil' in Hinduism. At least not on a fundamental level. In fact there is not 'good' or 'bad'. There simply IS.

concepts of good and evil, we believe, are man-made constructs. What I consider evil, another person will not. What I consider good, another person will not.

My understanding is that Abrahamic religions see 'evil' as going against God's instructions. Please correct me if I am mistaken. In Hinduism, it is not possible to go against God. No matter what we do is part of His will and an important part in our learning journey. Doing bad things is important, as is being punished through karma, because this is how we learn lessons.

But on a more material level, in the illusory sense, I think evil is any action that results in destruction of some variety while good is that which is constructive in some variety. But what we see in Hindu philosophy is that even things which are destructive have their purpose and lead back to construction.

What we have as an equivalent concept in Hinduism to 'evil' is ignorance. In Hinduism rather than 'good' vs 'evil' we have knowledge vs ignorance. Ignorance results in selfishness and selfishness is the root of all suffering. The more knowledge we acquire, which always increases through lives, the more we move toward selflessness and this leads to joy/love.

So no, we do not look at the world and see 'evil'. We see ignorance and suffering and wish to overcome both through knowledge and devotion/love of God.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't know if you simply missed my previous post, so I'll elaborate. In pantheistic thought the traditional view of good and evil loses its meaning. The universe as God concept makes the idea of an anthropomorphic deity which judges good and evil obsolete. We are as bacterial organism in a body, the universe has no human perspective on good and bad as we do. People may be good or bad and it is in their realm of responsibility, but the universe doesn't concern itself with these dilemmas.

Seconded. Was going to make another post relating to this question, but I think Caladan (as well as Madhuri) pretty much covered it. Reality (and consequently the gods, as to a pantheist mind they're not separate) is fundamentally amoral. It's humans who project value judgements - like "good" and "evil" - onto reality and thus the gods.

I would personally recognize some exceptions where we're talking about some of the otherworldly aspects of reality. The idea of "evil" itself is divine and holds tremendous power over the minds of humans, so I wouldn't quite say it has no reality to it. But that is about the extent of how it plays a role: as an idea that has power. Trees do not care about this idea, sun does not care about this idea, and I suspect most non-human animals do not either (or if they do, their idea of "evil" is probably different from ours).

 

[atanu]

I would like to start off by asking the following question..if God is present in everything or he timelesly interpenetrates every part of nature than is he also present/interpenetrate unclean filthy objects like poo for instance?
Discuss..

Do you then mean that God creates evil things like poo for instance and evil people like murderers for instance? Why? With what material He creates such evil?

 

[Monotheist 101]

So in other words ignorance is the absence of knowledge, evil is the absence of Good...pardon my terminology but I think both concepts are similar as the unfavorable thing is the absence of the favorable thing.

Isnt that the same explanation(different terminology) given about the source of evil by Saint Augustine?

I will try and contrast the Islamic concept of good and evil..it has similarities with other Abrahamic religions but differs in the most crucial of things..Have Uni all day..will post my findings soon..

 

[Monotheist 101]

By regarding god omnipresent we are limiting god?? But you said that Allah is not everywhere, this shows that you limited allah. Acc to me god is omnipresent.
God is everywhere, inside and outside this universe.
Completely god pervades the world and yet beyond it extends- Rigveda
.

IMO Allah is not present everywhere in Essence(Divine reality,)that would be giving him a time and place.

Rather he is present everywhere in his attributes.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Do you then mean that God creates evil things like poo for instance and evil people like murderers for instance? Why? With what material He creates such evil?

“(Allah) Most Gracious! It is He Who has taught the Qur’an. He has created man: He has taught him speech (and Intelligence). The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; and the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), in order that you may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance. It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures." (Ar-Rahman:1-10)

Yes he creates everything, but he is not omnipresent IMO..that would mean that he is present in the Poo and Murderers..which in my opinion is wrong.

The difference in his omnipresence in Islam is that..he is not considered to be present everywhere all the time, rather his attributes are present..I dont know if this makes sense to you guys..

 

[Quintessence]

So in other words ignorance is the absence of knowledge, evil is the absence of Good...pardon my terminology but I think both concepts are similar as the unfavorable thing is the absence of the favorable thing.

Not how I would look at it at all. I'm not a dualist; I simply do not categorize or view the world in terms of "good" and "evil." I also find the logic of "absence of A means B is present" and "absence of A is always bad" to be, at best, very flawed. The trees in my backyard have an absence of knowledge regarding 18th century European art. I find it pretty absurd to suggest that this lack of knowledge on their part us somehow unfavorable. Such knowledge would be useless to the trees. It's useless to most human beings, too (not to knock art history you lovers out there, but it's not exactly high on the list of utility knowledge unless it's your profession, right?).

In many respects, my not being a dualist is unrelated to having a pantheistic bent. I rejected dualism long before I started using that label to describe my theology. So I don't want to leave you with the impression that they're necessarily connected; it wouldn't surprise me if at least some pantheists were also dualists.

 

[atanu]

“(Allah) Most Gracious! It is He Who has taught the Qur’an. He has created man: He has taught him speech (and Intelligence). The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; and the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), in order that you may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance. It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures." (Ar-Rahman:1-10)

Yes he creates everything, but he is not omnipresent IMO..that would mean that he is present in the Poo and Murderers..which in my opinion is wrong.

The difference in his omnipresence in Islam is that..he is not considered to be present everywhere all the time, rather his attributes are present..I dont know if this makes sense to you guys..

Thank You.

So, it means that He created the murderer (a living evil) and poo (an inert evil). As He is also credited to be omniscient, so He can be then considered to be responsible for the mess? The verse that you quote says that it is Him who gave us intelligence and speech. So, why did He not create and teach perfectly? Why He created and/or taught evil to some?

Secondly. You did not answer, as to what material He used to create evil? I have read in Holy Quran the verse, which says that all beings are raised of one Soul. What is that one Soul and how some of it became evil?

 

[Penumbra]

I would like to contrast the difference in theology between most world religions and even between certain Islamic sects or offshoots understanding of the concept of One God or an original creator/force is. I believe that during the Islamic Golden age and its research of Greek theological concepts by Sufi scholars like Al Ghazali and ibn Arabi..a pantheistic view of God was incorporated into Islamic thought.(The reason behind the thousands of shrines found throughout the Muslim world which have become places of pilgrimage).
Also would like to look into the concepts behind evil..its origin and whether it emanates from God himself.

God in my understanding is seperate from creation..he never becomes part of it..contrasted to the belief that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God,[1] or that the universe (or nature) is identical with divinity or a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it.

I would like to start off by asking the following question..if God is present in everything or he timelesly interpenetrates every part of nature than is he also present/interpenetrate unclean filthy objects like poo for instance.

Discuss..

The idea that there was some separate god always was a foreign concept to me. I don't have a religion or belief now, but I was raised with a panentheistic god, where all of existence was a manifestation of god.

This would include poo, and everything. But what is poo? Humans and most other animals have a natural aversion towards it because it can be a source of illness. If we examine it from layer to layer to layer, it goes from being poo to bacteria to molecules to atoms to merely electrons, neutrons, and protons. And neutrons and protons can further be deconstructed into quarks. And all matter can be converted into pure energy.

Viewed this way, nothing is fundamentally unclean. Every molecule is just made up of electrons, protons, and neutrons. And it's all just energy. There's nothing gross about any of those things. Sugar is made of electrons, protons, and neutrons. Diamonds are made of electrons, protons, and neutrons. Poo is made of electrons, protons, and neutrons. Blood is made of electrons, protons, and neutrons. Water is made of electrons, protons, and neutrons. Just different formations of the same three things.

Things are only unclean to our superficial 'filter' that allows us to view things on a macroscopic level and survive in this world. A more objective assessment, however, just shows everything in existence to be one of a few dozen standard particles, none of which are gross or unclean, and all of which are just energy. So the idea that a god would inhabit certain types of electrons, protons, and neutrons, but find other arrangements of electrons, protons, and neutrons to be 'unclean' becomes less relevant at that level.

Anyways moving on..Btw I appreciate your replies, I love learning about different perspectives of God..especially as there are so many variations found in pantheist and panenthisest religions..In my findings they form the core beliefs behind the worlds oldest religions and have influenced every religion to some extant. I will conclude that because there is nothing before God, pantheism explains that God had to make something from another..there was nothing so logically he used himself..

I would like to ask you guys what the concept of evil is in your religion? Is it a part of God, like everything else? Or is it an absence of good like St.Augustine put it? or rather a consequence of free will?

In my religion, it was just a manifestation of god like everything else.

One cannot experience courage without something to be courageous against.
One cannot experience hope without something to contrast to.
One cannot experience perseverance without a difficult situation.
One cannot demonstrate sacrifice without something or someone willing to take.
One cannot demonstrate forgiveness without a harm having been done.

The purpose of existence, in my religion, was supposedly that god sought to experience everything worth experiencing. So it split itself into an infinite number of pieces while still retaining the infinite whole, so that it could experience every worthwhile combination of experiences.

 

[Madhuri]

IMO Allah is not present everywhere in Essence(Divine reality,)that would be giving him a time and place.

Why would it do that?
I truly do not understand this idea.

 

[Madhuri]

So in other words ignorance is the absence of knowledge, evil is the absence of Good...pardon my terminology but I think both concepts are similar as the unfavorable thing is the absence of the favorable thing.

It would be helpful if you provide your understanding of 'good' and 'evil' as I am not completely familiar with the actual religious concepts of these terms. It may be that the concepts between our religions are more similar than I imagine but from what I have seen explained by others it seems there must be some difference.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Why would it do that?
I truly do not understand this idea.

There is absolutely no Quranic term or attribute of Allah which states that Allah is 'Omnipresent', or present everywhere in His Majestic Self

The correct meaning or understanding of the term 'Omnipresent' when used for Allah , would be that the All Seeing, All Knowing Lord is present everywhere through His Perfect and Absolute Knowledge; not in His Majestic Self.

50.16 It was We who created man and We Know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

6.59: With Him are the keys of the Unseen, the treasures that none Knows but He. He Knows whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His Knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered) but is (inscribed) in a Record Clear (to those who can read).

58.7: Seest thou not that Allah doth Know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a secret consultation between three but He makes the fourth among them; nor between five but He makes the sixth; nor between fewer nor more but He is in their midst (with His Knowledge) wheresoever they be: in the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct on the Day of Judgment for Allah has full Knowledge of all things.

I think it maybe difficult to grasp the concept without holding the belief that God is unimaginable, without limits, more than our limited brains/bodys can percieve, the laws that govern our universe do not apply to him..

I think another core belief that maybe different is that in Islam this universe and everything in it is considered temporary and it must come to an end, on a specified time. So to hold the belief of Allahs omnipresence would mean that when the specified time of the universe/creations within it has finished. God will have to die along with his creation..If he is within and without, atleast the within part will have to die..I believe that God is immortal and indivisible..if he was divisible, I would expect his attribute of immortality to be passed to his creation/self..

I will relate the origin of evil..the concept of freewill, the ego, satan, creation of Adam..and how they are all connected in Islamic theology..it may be a long post..and I might not get time in the next few days..so dont lose hope and hang tight .

To the Agnostic Pantheist/Nature dude..

Apologies I cant remember your username..or be bothered to go back and look..:sorry1: first of all thanks for your input..any beliefs/ideas are welcome..as long as their civil ..I think these concepts might not apply to you because of the lack of of an identifiable deity/creator in your belief system.

There are 99 names/ attributes of Allah which he can be addressed/described by..wondering how many of them can apply to your nature God?

Names of God in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sumit]

There is absolutely no Quranic term or attribute of Allah which states that Allah is 'Omnipresent', or present everywhere in His Majestic Self

Yes I know Allah is not omnipresent and due to this satan deceived Adam even after they were warned by Allah.

So to hold the belief of Allahs omnipresence would mean that when the specified time of the universe/creations within it has finished.

Our beliefs are different. God is not destroyed when creation is destroyed same as soul is not destroyed when body is destroyed. Destruction is not the end, it's the beginning of new cycle.

I will relate the origin of evil..the concept of freewill, the ego, satan, creation of Adam..and how they are all connected in Islamic theology..it may be a long post..and I might not get time in the next few days..so dont lose hope and hang tight

Eagerly waiting for that story. But please post it in debate section, so that I may clear my doubts.

There are 99 names/ attributes of Allah which he can be addressed/described by..wondering how many of them can apply to your nature God?

Some devas have more than 1000 attributes, even humans have many attributes. But none can count the attributes of Brahman.

 

[Madhuri]

The correct meaning or understanding of the term 'Omnipresent' when used for Allah , would be that the All Seeing, All Knowing Lord is present everywhere through His Perfect and Absolute Knowledge; not in His Majestic Self.

But then surely you would not use the word omnipresent, but rather omniscient, yes?

the laws that govern our universe do not apply to him..

I agree.

I think another core belief that maybe different is that in Islam this universe and everything in it is considered temporary and it must come to an end, on a specified time. So to hold the belief of Allahs omnipresence would mean that when the specified time of the universe/creations within it has finished. God will have to die along with his creation..If he is within and without, atleast the within part will have to die..I believe that God is immortal and indivisible..if he was divisible, I would expect his attribute of immortality to be passed to his creation/self..

You are correct that this is a difference in our beliefs. In Hinduism, the material universe constantly changes appearance but the cycle of change is eternal. The material universe has no real beginning or end as nothing about God can have a birth or death.

I will relate the origin of evil..the concept of freewill, the ego, satan, creation of Adam..and how they are all connected in Islamic theology..it may be a long post..and I might not get time in the next few days..so dont lose hope and hang tight .

That's fine, whenever you can. It will be interesting to read

 

[Vouthon]

I am a pantheist in the sense that I can feel an intimacy towards nature, I don't actually think nature is divine. I don't have the sense of separation you feel there is between a God and creation. Nature is what there is, feces is perfectly natural and even an essential ecological component, it is useful and not something to worship.

Dear Caladan :bow:

Thank you for the insightful description above. If I may ask this even though I'm not an Islamic monotheist but a Christian one (the author of this thread did mention "most religions"):

I too feel a great connection with nature, a consonance with it. I see the entire universe as a theophany (manifestation) of God. He is in everything with all of His fullness. My conception of spirituality begins by finding God through created things, as in a mirror, before looking within the mind for Him and then beyond the mind.

There is a charming story about one of our earliest Christian ascetic mystics, Abba St. Anthony of Egypt:

St. Anthony the Great (251 - 356)

Once when a visiting philosopher asked how such a learned man as he got along in the desert without books, Anthony replied,

"My book is the nature of created things, and as often as I have a mind to read the words of God, it is at my hand."

Therefore in Catholic mysticism two books of primary revelation where recognised: the Bible and creation.

This was furthermore stated by a later mystic, St Bernard founder of the Cistercians:

Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090 - 1153)

Believe one who knows:
You will find something greater
in woods than in books.
Trees and stones will teach you
that which you can never learn from masters.

(Letter to Heinrich Murdach,
quoted in The Letters of Bernard 106:107)

Then there are these two great quotes from Meister Eckhart:

Meister Eckhart (1260 - 1327)

Anyone who truly knows creatures may be excused from listening to sermons for every creature is full of God, and is a book.

Sermons

Meister Eckhart (1260 - 1327)

Apprehend God in all things, for God is in all things.
Every creature is full of God and is a book about God.
Every creature is a word of God.
If I spent enough time with the tiniest creature – even a caterpillar –
I would never have to prepare a sermon,
so full of God is every creature.

Nevertheless I am not a pantheist because I also believe that while God is wholly immanent in the world, he is also completely transcendent - incomprehensible in his Essence to human intellect.

I am most curious to know whether you would agree that while God must be fully identified with nature, he should likewise not be limited to it?

If not then, fascinating, I must learn more about your worldview since that would make you the first actual pantheist I have encountered

 

[Vouthon]

There is absolutely no Quranic term or attribute of Allah which states that Allah is 'Omnipresent', or present everywhere in His Majestic Self

The correct meaning or understanding of the term 'Omnipresent' when used for Allah , would be that the All Seeing, All Knowing Lord is present everywhere through His Perfect and Absolute Knowledge; not in His Majestic Self.

Dear Monotheist :clap

I find it somewhat incredible to discover that, in your opinion, Islam has no room for the omnipresence or immanence of God. As we both know this belief is very intrinsic to Sufism, however you regard this as being an alien import into Islam rather than a belief with any foundations in the Qur'an or Hadith.

If this is true then it would be rather a major difference between orthodox Islam and the two sibling Abrahamic religions of Judaism and Christianity.

On that account I must ask you:

1) What of the Hadith Qudsi saying which goes:

“I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known; then they knew Me.”

- Hadith Qudsi

Does not this saying suggest that God self-communicates Himself through creation - all creation? It seems to me to indicate that God is the "Hidden Treasure", the unknown, inaccessible, transcendent "Other" yet that he desired to be known and so he formed the universe so that other beings might know Him through it.

2) What of the ayat:

“And indeed We have created man and We know what his own-self whispers to him. And We are nearer to him then his jugular vein.” {Sura 50:16}

If God is nearer to man than his jugular vein then how can it merely be said that "God is all-seeing" rather than "All-present"? True it is said that Allah "know what his own self whispers" however I receive the strong impression that "nearness" should be taken quite literally as denoting proximity to the individual believer and not just a supreme knowledge.

I am not in any way challenging your view, I accept what you say and bow to your greater knowledge of Islamic doctrine.

 

[atanu]

.... ..I think these concepts might not apply to you because of the lack of of an identifiable deity/creator in your belief system.

There are 99 names/ attributes of Allah which he can be addressed/described by..wondering how many of them can apply to your nature God?

Names of God in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is it meant to compare religions?

 

[sunni56]

Dear Monotheist :clap

I find it somewhat incredible to discover that, in your opinion, Islam has no room for the omnipresence or immanence of God. As we both know this belief is very intrinsic to Sufism, however you regard this as being an alien import into Islam rather than a belief with any foundations in the Qur'an or Hadith.

If this is true then it would be rather a major difference between orthodox Islam and the two sibling Abrahamic religions of Judaism and Christianity.

On that account I must ask you:

1) What of the Hadith Qudsi saying which goes:



Does not this saying suggest that God self-communicates Himself through creation - all creation? It seems to me to indicate that God is the "Hidden Treasure", the unknown, inaccessible, transcendent "Other" yet that he desired to be known and so he formed the universe so that other beings might know Him through it.

2) What of the ayat:

“And indeed We have created man and We know what his own-self whispers to him. And We are nearer to him then his jugular vein.” {Sura 50:16}

If God is nearer to man than his jugular vein then how can it merely be said that "God is all-seeing" rather than "All-present"? True it is said that Allah "know what his own self whispers" however I receive the strong impression that "nearness" should be taken quite literally as denoting proximity to the individual believer and not just a supreme knowledge.

I am not in any way challenging your view, I accept what you say and bow to your greater knowledge of Islamic doctrine.

I'm not going to comment on the hadith Qudsi because I don't know the source for that or whether it is authentic. As for the verse of the Qur'an about Allah being nearer to us than our vein, it is not to be taken literally by unanimous consensus of all the scholars of Islam of any era. Nearness here means that Allah's knowledge and power and control extends that far, but He is not physically present inside us or near to us.

 

[Vouthon]

I'm not going to comment on the hadith Qudsi because I don't know the source for that or whether it is authentic. As for the verse of the Qur'an about Allah being nearer to us than our vein, it is not to be taken literally by unanimous consensus of all the scholars of Islam of any era. Nearness here means that Allah's knowledge and power and control extends that far, but He is not physically present inside us or near to us.

Ah, I see. Than you for explaining that to me Sunni :clap

If this was the consensus in every era of Islam, then where does that place Sufi speculations about God's immanence? Is monotheist correct then in saying that they are in essence heterodox? Rumi, for example, was a jurist and by any means considered himself to be a devout, orthodox Muslim.

 

[Caladan]

Nevertheless I am not a pantheist because I also believe that while God is wholly immanent in the world, he is also completely transcendent - incomprehensible in his Essence to human intellect.

I am most curious to know whether you would agree that while God must be fully identified with nature, he should likewise not be limited to it?

If not then, fascinating, I must learn more about your worldview since that would make you the first actual pantheist I have encountered

Hello Vouthon, welcome to RF, and thanks for your inquiry!
Pantheism can be theistic or atheistic. I am more in the Naturalistic Pantheism category. I don't believe that nature is God, to me it is more of a personal psychology. The best way I can describe my approach is by quoting from Frank Herbert's Dune: ''If you need something to worship, then worship life — all life, every last crawling bit of it! We're all in this beauty together!''.
In Dune, much of the religion of the native Fremen is ecological in nature and is based on their intimate connection with their planet and its creatures. This is how I see things, but it doesn't mean that I believe that the universe takes decisions and while there are truly awesome forces in play in nature, I don't believe nature is 'almighty' in the sense that an anthropomorphic God is who resides over creation and guides it at will.

I'm working on my postgraduate studies in archaeology, and one of my research topics is religion, which I've always been interested in tracing the environmental causes, roots and connections behind world religion. I believe that religion can be a much more naturalistic and pantheistic force than most people realize.