Pantheism/Panentheism vs Islamic Monotheism

[Monotheist 101]

Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe.[1]

Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pantheism is the belief that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God,[1] or that the universe (or nature) is identical with divinity.[2] Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal or anthropomorphic god.
Pantheism was popularized in the modern era as both a theology and philosophy based on the work of the 17th century philosopher Baruch Spinoza,[3].7 whose Ethics was an answer to Descartes' famous dualist theory that the body and spirit are separate.[4] Spinoza held the monist view that the two are the same, and monism is a fundamental part of his philosophy. He was described as a "God-intoxicated man," and used the word God to describe the unity of all substance.[4] Although the term pantheism was not coined until after his death, Spinoza is regarded as its most celebrated advocate.[5]

Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tawhid or Tauheed (Arabic: توحيد‎ tawḥīd ; English: doctrine of Oneness [of God]; also transliterated Tawheed, and Tauhid.) is the concept of monotheism in Islam.[1] It is the religion's most fundamental concept and holds God (Arabic: Allah) is one (wāḥid ) and unique (aḥad ).[2]
The Qur'an asserts the existence of a single and absolute truth that transcends the world; a unique, independent and indivisible being, who is independent of the entire creation.[3] God, according to Islam, is a universal God, rather than a local, tribal, or parochial one—God is an absolute, who integrates all affirmative values and brooks no evil.[4]
Tawhid constitutes the foremost article of the Muslim profession.[5] The first part of the Shahada is the declaration of belief in the oneness of God.[2] To attribute divinity to a created entity, known as shirk, is the only unpardonable sin mentioned in the Qur'an.[4] Muslims believe that the entirety of the Islamic teaching rests on the principle of Tawhid.[6] There is an uncompromising monotheism at the heart of the Islamic beliefs which distinguishes Islam from other major religions.[7]
Islamic intellectual history can be understood as a gradual unfolding of the manner in which successive generations of believers have understood the meaning and implications of professing God's Unity. Islamic scholars have different approaches toward understanding it. Islamic theology, jurisprudence, philosophy, Sufism, even to some degree the Islamic understanding of natural sciences, all seek to explain at some level the principle of tawhid.[8]


Tawhid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would like to contrast the difference in theology between most world religions and even between certain Islamic sects or offshoots understanding of the concept of One God or an original creator/force is. I believe that during the Islamic Golden age and its research of Greek theological concepts by Sufi scholars like Al Ghazali and ibn Arabi..a pantheistic view of God was incorporated into Islamic thought.(The reason behind the thousands of shrines found throughout the Muslim world which have become places of pilgrimage).
Also would like to look into the concepts behind evil..its origin and whether it emanates from God himself.

God in my understanding is seperate from creation..he never becomes part of it..contrasted to the belief that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God,[1] or that the universe (or nature) is identical with divinity or a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it.

I would like to start off by asking the following question..if God is present in everything or he timelesly interpenetrates every part of nature than is he also present/interpenetrate unclean filthy objects like poo for instance?

Discuss..

 

[Quintessence]

Well, I know I'm not the monotheistic respondent you'd probably prefer, but my gods are fully immanent and all-encompassing. That is to say, there is no place the gods are not and all things are gods. Yes, that includes "filthy" objects (I wouldn't consider fecal material filthy; honestly the first thing I think is "fantastic fertilizer"). All is sacred, without exception. Doesn't mean I actively worship everything, without exception, however.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Well, I know I'm not the monotheistic respondent you'd probably prefer, but my gods are fully immanent and all-encompassing. That is to say, there is no place the gods are not and all things are gods. Yes, that includes "filthy" objects (I wouldn't consider fecal material filthy; honestly the first thing I think is "fantastic fertilizer").

I prefer any genuine respondent :bow:

Do you honestly think fertilizer when you relieve yourself??..I cant even stand sitting on for a second longer than I need to..I make a toilet and I'm out of the toilet..provided I wash myself with water thoroughly..

Hygiene is a prominent topic in Islam. Islam has always placed a strong emphasis on personal hygiene. Other than the need to be ritually clean in time for the daily prayer (Arabic: Salah) through Wudu and Ghusl, there are a large number of other hygiene-related rules governing the lives of Muslims. Other issues include the Islamic dietary laws.
In general, the Qur'an advises Muslims to uphold high standards of physical hygiene and to be ritually clean whenever possible. For this reason in Muslim countries, bathrooms are often equipped with a Muslim shower situated next to the toilet, so that an individual may wash themselves. This ablution is required in order to maintain ritual cleanliness.
Islamic hygienical jurisprudence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't mean I actively worship everything, without exception, however.

But if God is present in everything then worshipping one thing is like worshipping everything..so realistically worshipping a statue or worshipping a doo doo is the same..because they all encompass God..or the eternal truth as some would like to call it..correct me if I am wrong..

 

[Quintessence]

*laughs* Well, no, when I'm taking a crap I think "next I have to flush the toilet." Though I have heard about these composting toilets. I really want one, because I garden, but I also live in an apartment, so that isn't possible. I don't use much fertilizer anyway, but that synthetic blue stuff and the little pellets... it's not as organic, tree-hugger friendly as good, old fashioned manure. Neither here nor there. >_>

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say worshiping one thing is like worshiping everything. I don't honor all of my gods in the same way. To do so is analogous to making every person the same thing for Christmas gifts. Sure, you can do it, but impersonal gifts are often not particularly thoughtful or reverent. At a minimum, I don't use the same words when honoring particular gods. That wouldn't make sense. It would be like talking to your sister as if she is your boyfriend or something. Talk about awkward.

Some aspects of reality I don't actively honor at all. I don't actively honor statues, and I don't actively honor feces. They're not that important or salient to me and my everyday life. For the same reason I don't honor Ocean, even though it is an extremely important power on this planet. I live in the middle of a continent, so I'm not salient of its influence. Sun on the other hand, I see every day or am aware of every day even if it is cloudy outside.

 

[Monotheist 101]

At a minimum, I don't use the same words when honoring particular gods. That wouldn't make sense. It would be like talking to your sister as if she is your boyfriend or something.

I can look past different words and languages..but the core belief that a force emanates every object on earth..implies that God/Universal energy is present in everything, be it a dog, a spirit, a spirits pets or their beasts of burden (apparently their animals eat our doo doo..lol i'm not joking)..or an energy that doesnt actively take part or influence the physical realm..the point remains that essentially everything is a part of God so it contains God in some proportion or the other..be it "fertilizer" or a spirit God, or even the eternal truth an understanding of which is crucial to enlightenment.

 

[Atman]

I would like to start off by asking the following question..if God is present in everything or he timelesly interpenetrates every part of nature than is he also present/interpenetrate unclean filthy objects like poo for instance?

Absolutely. The idea that fecal matter is "filthy" comes from the fact that its contact and consumption by humans causes illness and even death. To a dung beetle fecal matter is a useful and probably tasety source of food and nutrients. In reality ****, and sugar are both composed of the same base matter. To a panentheist this base matter or energy which everything is composed of in this universe, is verily itself made up of God. Does the particular brand of Islam you adhere to not believe God is omnipotent in nature?

But if God is present in everything then worshipping one thing is like worshipping everything..so realistically worshipping a statue or worshipping a doo doo is the same..because they all encompass God..or the eternal truth as some would like to call it..correct me if I am wrong..

I don't think fecal matter evokes the same feelings of reverance and religious awe that a well crafted piece of religious iconography does. Would you mind doing me a favor and explaining what your definition of worship is?

 

[Monotheist 101]

Absolutely. The idea that fecal matter is "filthy" comes from the fact that its contact and consumption by humans causes illness and even death. To a dung beetle fecal matter is a useful and probably tasety source of food and nutrients. In reality ****, and sugar are both composed of the same base matter. To a panentheist this base matter or energy which everything is composed of in this universe, is verily itself made up of God. Does the particular brand of Islam you adhere to not believe God is omnipotent in nature?

I don't think fecal matter evokes the same feelings of reverance and religious awe that a well crafted piece of religious iconography does. Would you mind doing me a favor and explaining what your definition of worship is?

My definition of worship stretches from acknowledging an objects divine attributes, praying, prostrating, even dwelling on something too long

The difference I see between my viewpoint and yours is that I believe that there is the created and the uncreated..God belonging to the latter..it does not mean his laws or influence donot govern nature..I rather hold the belief that his laws are held in place by his angels..regardless he remains seperate from creation and never manifests in object (poo or man made idol) or spirits or Humans...

The point still remains that worship towards fecal matter may not be promoted or regarded highly of..but God or his "spark" remains in everytihng that is a part of creation..because ultimatly it is a part of God..my statement remains the same that if every soul is a part of God..than it deserves to be worshipped..or if every object is a part of God than it deserves to be worshipped be it beautiful poo or ugly idol Im messing I actually enjoy checking out the erotic hindu godessess and their finely crafted sculptures on my trips to the art gallery..

Does the particular brand of Islam you adhere to not believe God is omnipotent in nature?

A very good understanding of his omnipotence which I am congruent with can be found on the following page:

http://defending-islam.com/page297.html


Btw I adhere to a nameless universal brand of Islam..simply referred to as Islam and like to be called simply a Muslim..not Shia or Sunni or Quranist..

 

[Caladan]

God in my understanding is seperate from creation..he never becomes part of it..contrasted to the belief that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God,[1] or that the universe (or nature) is identical with divinity or a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it.

I would like to start off by asking the following question..if God is present in everything or he timelesly interpenetrates every part of nature than is he also present/interpenetrate unclean filthy objects like poo for instance?

Discuss..

I am a pantheist in the sense that I can feel an intimacy towards nature, I don't actually think nature is divine. I don't have the sense of separation you feel there is between a God and creation. Nature is what there is, feces is perfectly natural and even an essential ecological component, it is useful and not something to worship.

 

[Monotheist 101]

I am a pantheist in the sense that I can feel an intimacy towards nature, I don't actually think nature is divine. I don't have the sense of separation you feel there is between a God and creation. Nature is what there is, feces is perfectly natural and even an essential ecological component, it is useful and not something to worship.

But if you were to direct your worship at something..or acknowledge the existence of a higher power..be it one that doesnt interfere matters of the world..you would recognize that higher power/nature to be present in everything..

Yeh we may hold very contrasting viewpoints due to my belief in the existence of a single and absolute truth that transcends the world; a unique, independent and indivisible being, who is independent of the entire creation.

What I was really trying to get at and will continue on after my sleep is the concept of evil..Does the Pantheist view hold that because God encompasses everything in the universe he is also the source of all evil?

 

[Madhuri]

The point still remains that worship towards fecal matter may not be promoted or regarded highly of..but God or his "spark" remains in everytihng that is a part of creation..because ultimatly it is a part of God..my statement remains the same that if every soul is a part of God..than it deserves to be worshipped..or if every object is a part of God than it deserves to be worshipped be it beautiful poo or ugly idol

Actually at least in Hinduism, we are taught to see God in all things, especially in living things. By saying that all is God, it does not mean that every single thing is the same. A soul is a different representation of God's energy and nature than a non-living object. A soul is worthy of respect, as it is life and consciousness. An object has no consciousness or life. There is no need to see it as anything other than what function it plays and that it is part of God's material energy.

But seeing everything as part of God is not the same as seeing everything as equal to God. I am a Panentheist and I believe that the Hindu scriptures teach a panentheistic reality, even if other Hindus might disagree with me. According my the Hindu-Panentheist view, God exists as One life/consciousness, a great intelligent being. This being is omnipotent. He/She/It is infinite in all possible ways. This includes God's attributes and energies, capacity etc. Unlike in Islam, which says there are so many things God cannot do, Hindus believe that God is able to expand his energies to create infinite universes within his own Self. (Everything happens within God as there is nothing that exists other than God).

One of God's infinite energies is matter. So this very universe is made of God's own energy and consciousness. If we see anything as dirty, it is our subjective mind putting that idea onto a thing. Ultimately, everything is matter and energy and constantly transforms into other objects.

We also believe, unlike in Islam, that God is omnipresent. This means, as part of his infinite powers, he is able to exists in all places at all times simultaneously. This is obvious since we believe that everything is a manifestation of some energy of his.

So to summaries the view, God is One and only. From his own self, he creates. Therefore all things are part of him but nothing individually is the same or equal to him. Therefore God is who we worship, but we do respect and try to see God within all living things.

One major difference that I perceive between panentheism and dualistic-monotheism is that according to the first, God creates from his own Self since he is infinite while in the other, he must create from outside of himself to make something out of 'nothing'. This latter concept actually does not make much sense to me. I think it makes God look very finite. If something can exist that is other than God, it must mean that God lacks attributes or powers or qualities.

 

[Caladan]

But if you were to direct your worship at something..or acknowledge the existence of a higher power..be it one that doesnt interfere matters of the world..you would recognize that higher power/nature to be present in everything..

Speaking for myself, there is no higher power. Nature is the only force worthy of a near religious reverence, and even this is characterized by the desire to understand and explore nature rather than worshipping it. I think a key issue here is that generally pantheists do not believe in the supernatural, so words like higher power or worship take on a different meaning.

What I was really trying to get at and will continue on after my sleep is the concept of evil..Does the Pantheist view hold that because God encompasses everything in the universe he is also the source of all evil?

There is certainly cruelty in this world but it does not have supernatural causes.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Unlike in Islam, which says there are so many things God cannot do

How can the All Powerful not do so many things?

Hindus believe that God is able to expand his energies are create infinite universes within his own Self. (Everything happens within God as there is nothing that exists other than God)

That is exactly what I am inquiring about..thanks .. But to hold this belief that he creates everything within himself..everything that is a part of creation be it material or spiritual is essentially an extension of God.

We also believe, unlike in Islam, that God is omnipresent. This means, as part of his infinite powers, he is able to exists in all places at all times simultaneously. This is obvious since we believe that everything is a manifestation of some energy of his.

Agreed.. I would like to clarify a few verses which are confused by Islamic Mystics..

2.115. (They attempt to exploit the issue of qiblah – the direction of Prayer – as a pretext to bar Muslims from places of worship and to prevent God's Name being mentioned and invoked in them. ) To God belong the East and the West (and, therefore, the whole earth with its east and west: wherever you are, you can turn to Him in the Prayer). Then, in whatever direction you turn, there is the "Face" of God. God is All-Embracing (with His mercy), All-Knowing.

This verse should not be confused with omnipresence..

Rather his location is higher than any degrees imaginable:

81:20 Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne,

85:15 Lord of the Throne of Glory,

40:15 Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority):

So yes most Muslims believe Allah is not everywhere,
But Allah is everywhere through his knowledge

 

[Sha'irullah]

I would like to start off by asking the following question..if God is present in everything or he timelesly interpenetrates every part of nature than is he also present/interpenetrate unclean filthy objects like poo for instance?

Discuss..

According to the Aghori god is present even if excrement and they will devour it to give testament to their believe.

Muslims do not touch things that break wudhu while I myself find this pointless since god created the item/substance in the first place. Nothing is spiritually unclean. This is the manner in which Aghori view things but they take it further by equating god to the creation whether it be clean or unclean.

Allah is without a doubt panentheistic since he is omnipresent as noted in Al-Baqarah ayat 115. Omnipresence is a major part of pananetheism except it is a physical aspect. All creation is on contact with Allah and Allah extends beyond it and is never equal to his creation. The best description of this is to compare him to interdimensional existence. He is present where you are but you cannot feel, see or notice him. But the difference is that Allah extends beyond known creation and this universe. This world literally resides inside of his presence and we are nothing but a hair follicle to Allah and even lesser.
Something that reminds me of this is a hadith in Kitab al-Sunnah the collections of Ahmad ibn-Hanbal
The Prophet(Muhammad) said "I have been given permission to speak about one of the angels of Allah who carry the Throne. The distance between his ear-lobes and his shoulders is equivalent to a seven-hundred-year journey.'"

 

[Monotheist 101]

According to the Aghori god is present even if excrement and they will devour it to give testament to their believe.

Muslims do not touch things that break wudhu while I myself find this pointless since god created the item/substance in the first place. Nothing is spiritually unclean. This is the manner in which Aghori view things but they take it further by equating god to the creation whether it be clean or unclean.

Allah is without a doubt panentheistic since he is omnipresent as noted in Al-Baqarah ayat 115. Omnipresence is a major part of pananetheism except it is a physical aspect. All creation is on contact with Allah and Allah extends beyond it and is never equal to his creation. The best description of this is to compare him to interdimensional existence. He is present where you are but you cannot feel, see or notice him. But the difference is that Allah extends beyond known creation and this universe. This world literally resides inside of his presence and we are nothing but a hair follicle to Allah and even lesser.
Something that reminds me of this is a hadith in Kitab al-Sunnah the collections of Ahmad ibn-Hanbal
The Prophet(Muhammad) said "I have been given permission to speak about one of the angels of Allah who carry the Throne. The distance between his ear-lobes and his shoulders is equivalent to a seven-hundred-year journey.'"

Imam al-Tahawi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his famous al-Aqida al-Tahawiyya:

He (Allah) is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by six directions as all created things are (P. 9).

Imam al-Nasafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:

He (Allah) is not a body (jism), nor an atom (jawhar), nor is He something formed (musawwar), nor a thing limited (mahdud), nor a thing numbered (madud), nor a thing portioned or divided, nor a thing compounded (mutarakkab), nor does He come to end in Himself. He is not described by quiddity (al-mahiya), or by quality (al-kayfiyya), nor is He placed in space (al-makan), and time (al-zaman) does not affect Him. Nothing resembles Him, that is to say, nothing is like Him (See: Sad al-Din al-Taftazani & Najm al-Din al-Nasafi, Sharh al-Aqaid al- Nasafiyya, 92-97).

I hold the view that God is free from time and space and saying that he is everywhere would be wrong, so will placing him on a throne..Allah is limitless and the above mentioned possibilities are limited..what is certain tho is that his knowledge encompasses everything..

 

[Sumit]

I would like to start off by asking the following question..if God is present in everything or he timelesly interpenetrates every part of nature than is he also present/interpenetrate unclean filthy objects like poo for instance?
Discuss..

God is present at every place, It does not matter how the place look. No place can ever exist without God.

saying that he is everywhere would be wrong, so will placing him on a throne....Allah is limitless and the above mentioned possibilities are limited..

If Allah is not omnipresent than this shows he has a limit ( because he is not omnipresent).

 

[Monotheist 101]

If Allah is not omnipresent than this shows he has a limit ( because he is not omnipresent).

Being omnipresent would be limiting him to the confines of time and space..I believe he exists outside space and time..no matter how vast all the space in the universe is..it is still limited..thus by regarding him as omnipresent you will be limiting God.

I think he is fully aware of everything tho..different than omnipresent..he has full knowledge of every particle/atom in the universe..without actually having the need to become part of his creation..

A description of God from the Quran:

"There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer."
—Qur'an, Sura 42 (Ash-Shura), ayat 11[20]
​

"God created all things and He is the agent on which all things depend"
—Qur'an, Sura 39 (Az-Zumar), ayat 62[13]
​

"Say: He is Allah, The One and Only.
"Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
"He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."
[Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

I believe that God does not create like humanbeings create stuff..humanbeings merely put together elements that were already present in some form of the other..Thus we only fashion stuff..I believe the same logic should not be applied to God..why is it so hard to believe that he would create something from nothing..he is the true Creator, the first and only true God..we shouldnt apply human logic to him an assume that because there was nothing before him..he had create everything from himself...I believe if he is the All Powerful than he needs to say Be and it is..

 

[Monotheist 101]

Anyways moving on..Btw I appreciate your replies, I love learning about different perspectives of God..especially as there are so many variations found in pantheist and panenthisest religions..In my findings they form the core beliefs behind the worlds oldest religions and have influenced every religion to some extant. I will conclude that because there is nothing before God, pantheism explains that God had to make something from another..there was nothing so logically he used himself..

I would like to ask you guys what the concept of evil is in your religion? Is it a part of God, like everything else? Or is it an absence of good like St.Augustine put it? or rather a consequence of free will?

 

[Caladan]

I would like to ask you guys what the concept of evil is in your religion? Is it a part of God, like everything else? Or is it an absence of good like St.Augustine put it? or rather a consequence of free will?

I don't know if you simply missed my previous post, so I'll elaborate. In pantheistic thought the traditional view of good and evil loses its meaning. The universe as God concept makes the idea of an anthropomorphic deity which judges good and evil obsolete. We are as bacterial organism in a body, the universe has no human perspective on good and bad as we do. People may be good or bad and it is in their realm of responsibility, but the universe doesn't concern itself with these dilemmas.

 

[Sumit]

Being omnipresent would be limiting him to the confines of time and space..I believe he exists outside space and time.no matter how vast all the space in the universe is..it is still limited..thus by regarding him as omnipresent you will be limiting God.

By regarding god omnipresent we are limiting god?? But you said that Allah is not everywhere, this shows that you limited allah. Acc to me god is omnipresent.
God is everywhere, inside and outside this universe.

Completely god pervades the world and yet beyond it extends- Rigveda

I would like to ask you guys what the concept of evil is in your religion? Is it a part of God, like everything else? Or is it an absence of good like St.Augustine put it? or rather a consequence of free will?

Evil arises due to ignorance.

 

[Madhuri]

I agree with Sumit. The idea in Hinduism that God is both within and without (omnipresent) does not mean he becomes confined. The fact that he is both shows this. How can he be confined to time and space if he is both within and without?

To say that he cannot be within and that to be within means he is constricted, is limiting his powers and ability.