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Palestinians under attack

Godobeyer

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
icehorse said:
Godobeyer, FearGod, loverOfTruth, et. al.,

It's clear on this thread that some folks lean towards support of Israel and some people lean towards criticism of Israel. While I lean towards Israel at this moment in time, I'm doing my best to understand the folks who are criticizing Israel. My experience in this forum, and on the internet in in the media in general, is that the degree of "spin" that both sides use is really extreme. In other words, on this issue of Israel and Palestine, it's extra, extra difficult to find objective reporting. (Of course there is probably no such thing as absolute, 100%, true objectivity, but we can attempt to achieve it.)

On this thread (and similar threads) I mostly see variations on name calling - back and forth. I'd really like to understand your perspective! One issue might be differences in cultures and differences in core values. For example, I have been told by many Muslims that martyrdom in the name of Islam is a core value for many Muslims. This value, whether it's religious or cultural, or some combination of the two is extremely different than my core values. (And I suspect that valuing martyrdom in the name of religion is probably counter to most of the folks defending Israel.)

To further describe this, I personally place a high value on on:

- evidence
- logic
- understanding

I place a low value on:

- religious beliefs
- cultural beliefs

It could be that if you're criticizing Israel you place a higher value on religion (and more specifically Islam), than I do. If that's the case, and if you tell me that that's the case, then we have a better chance of understanding each other.

For example, if you say that "Israeli's are acting in cowardly ways", it's important to understand the context you're coming from when you say that. if you think Israel has a right to exist, you probably disagree with the claim of cowardice. If you do NOT think Israel has a right to exist, you might conclude that they are acting like cowards. (This is just an example.)

To try to summarize: I've offered some of my core values. What values are you using to support your criticisms of Israel?
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hi icehorse thanks for asking us .

I can say there is much nerves as you see from the both sides

let's me clarfiy the situation as i understand :

1-The muslims : care about their brothers and sisters in Gaza , whom slayed by the name of fighting "terroristes" .
or right to exist .

VS

2- the Isreali (particuliar) and the jews on general : care about their reputation to be accused as war crimes the civilians in Gaza or racist .


let's label the problem I start with
1-Hamas: Rocket is bad strategic decision and non-efficace weapon and random , to resist the seige or to resist attack of Israeli army ,which gave to devil regime of Israel a justification/reason to ecrase their families/kids and their homes.

2-Israel:they demand the right to exist "Israel" only by massacring the families in Gaza ? could not Israel change it's self ,by adopt the peace path and being justice and non-racist with other ALL religions and ALL races ?

blaming Hamas is doing bad issues ,then Israeli army comes and did awful/worst crimes than Hamas!!!! this is NOT value logic evidence .

Value of defending against the enemies (who attack you )is exist in any culture or religion .

defending in Islam is duty,with conditions ,adult, avoid to abuse or kill the innocent...etc



in the end , i can say this conflict made much hate between Muslims and Jews , this hate could be end when Israel stop being racist/abusor against Muslims and Palestinians and Arabs and muslims accept the jews,Israeli racist regime should be end, Israel abusing the Muslims and parasiting the USA should by AIPAC , by the name of fighting terrorism , should be end .

let's suppose that you live in Gaza , your familly bombed by Israeli army .
in that moment you will discover that killing the innocent is action beyond the cowardice. that feeling could not be imaginary until you taste it or try to feel it.

I don't what's required to some people to deny and reject abusing racist and the bombing against the Palestinians famillies?

Israel are not perfect (we also) so it'could be critized as same as i could critized my own state (Algeria) or Hamas or USA ...etc .

edited to add : the famillies Palestinians are ecrased because they want to be free (break the seige) and because rockets don't hurt a solid wall !!!
 
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icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi Godobeyer,

You said many things, can we take a few at a time? For example, could we just start with the values you use when you look at this situation?

For example, what's more important to you:

defense of Islam?
defense of people?

what do you think is more important to Hamas?
 
icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hello Matemkar,

I'll ask you the same question, what are the core values you are using as you think about this situation?

Do you put Islam before individuals? How much history do you think is valid to consider when thinking about this conflict? Why do you think that Jordan and Egypt should not donate land to help create a homeland for their fellow Arab Palestinians?
 
Godobeyer

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
icehorse said:
Hi Godobeyer,

You said many things, can we take a few at a time? For example, could we just start with the values you use when you look at this situation?

For example, what's more important to you:

defense of Islam?
defense of people?

what do you think is more important to Hamas?
Click to expand...
thanks for asking

I think Hamas defend for their People more than defending Islam .

I critic Hamas defend for their people is weak , that's what Israel profiting to massacre more innocents .

I used most of time commun and humanity views (values) racist,abuse,occupation,extremist,siege.religious...etc

some others could used religious views for exemple muslims or jews to justify their errors .

blaming Hamas for defending for JUST Islam is wrong , even it's used islamic speech , because Islam don't be need to be defending , their innocents for sure .

IF blaming Hamas for using religious views , how about Israel regime which created on religious views .

Israel "the Jewish state" created 1948 before Hamas 1987
 
Matemkar

Matemkar

Active Member
Sure, any rational questions are welcome my friend :)

I put Islam before anything. And I wouldn't have put Islam to that place if she did not put individuals before anything. What I mean is Islam honours individuals :) (Please see, Man in the Holy Quran ,
Man; the Book of Existence)

Having said that, Islam also wants the establishment of justice and peace. However, this part gets tricky, especially when the justice concepts of human beings differ.

And, in order to make justice to the issue, we have discussed history throughout the thread that, "UN granting a certain nation, a land which they did not own, thus getting the rights of another nation, in the name of making up for the former nation, was and is totally wrong". Thus, the zionist entity needs to be ended. And, any sane person would agree that, when someone violates your rights (i.e. invades your land, massacres some of your nation and displaces the rest), you get your rights from him not from someone else and you fight for that. You don't ask another to compensate for you. If you do that, you would be no different to the usurper one.

I mean, why would you give up fighting for justice when your rights are violated, and why would you even think of violating the rights of others as a solution? It is totally wrong.

And if you wish that, you would be repeating the same injustice. Why did the Muslims have to compensate for what Hitler supposedly did? And why other Muslims should compensate for what the Zionists have been doing? The new Hitler should be punished, don't you agree?

I mean, why are you talking about founding another homeland for Palestinians in another place, when that is their occupied homelands? This would be injustice. And as an individual who believes in and wants JUSTICE, I support Palestinians retaking their own homelands. I hope I make sense. Thanks. :)
 
Matemkar

Matemkar

Active Member
xkatz said:
Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

Do you really think it is logical in this case?

Plestinians: A nation whose lands are occupied, generations are massacred and the remaining ones are displaced by the Zionists.

This Jewish Rabbi: A person who holds on to the teachings of his religion and keeps the lives and rights of nations sacred. Thus speaking against those hypocrites who use the name of his religion.

And what is the relation of these two with Stockholm syndrome?

For it to be tied to this syndrome, 1-] the former group (Palestinians) needs to be the invaders/occupiers and settlers, not the vice versa. 2-] the latter group (NK or other Jews who oppose Zionism) should be attacked by the former group, not the Zionist criminals who this group disassociate themselves from.
 
xkatz

xkatz

Well-Known Member
Matemkar said:
Do you really think it is logical in this case?

Palestinians: A nation whose lands are occupied, generations are massacred and the remaining ones are displaced by the Zionists.

This Jewish Rabbi: A person who holds on to the teachings of his religion and keeps the lives and rights of nations sacred. Thus speaking against those hypocrites who use the name of his religion.
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It is logical because according to your logic, the only good Jews are those who are subservient to your agenda.

I am not saying that Palestinians don't have a right to their own state, but at the same time Israel already exists and more harm would be caused by trying to dismantle it.

And what is the relation of these two with Stockholm syndrome?

For it to be tied to this syndrome, 1-] the former group (Palestinians) needs to be the invaders/occupiers and settlers, not the vice versa. 2-] the latter group (NK or other Jews who oppose Zionism) should be attacked by the former group, not the Zionist criminals who this group disassociate themselves from.
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Neturei Karta Rabbi Attacked in Amsterdam - Jewish World - News - Arutz Sheva

Neturei Karta: Attack on Dutch Jew Israel's Fault - Jewish World - News - Arutz Sheva

:rolleyes:
 
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ametist

ametist

Active Member
Rabbi in matemkar's video already said since they protest against it that they were being attacked by zionist. I dont think it looks much like stockholm sendrom. Rabbis that talk like him are "nuts" according to zionists, that is understood. They were called names in another post, too.
 
xkatz

xkatz

Well-Known Member
ametist said:
Rabbi in matemkar's video already said since they protest against it that they were being attacked by zionist. I dont think it looks much like stockholm sendrom. Rabbis that talk like him are "nuts" according to zionists, that is understood. They were called names in another post, too.
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He's nuts b/c Israel is already established and dismantling it would only further the vicious cycle that's been ongoing. Not to mention that the group has often tried to justify terrorism like the Mumbai attacks in '08.
 
Matemkar

Matemkar

Active Member
Yep, "any anti-occupation/settlement resistance fighters are terrorists. And any religious non-supporters of secular invasion are nutjobs and traitors to the nation." Congrats.
 
ametist

ametist

Active Member
what group? shall we now get into the net and search all the religious jews that condemn zionism or did you do that already to find reasons to indicate why they may be all nuts because they dont approve zionism?
rabbi isnt saying dismantle the state of israel. he is saying it was wrong it is attempted in the first place and it cant be anything about judaism and that the religion is being used by israel and that there is a cause and affect relation in existence of hamas.
 
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xkatz

xkatz

Well-Known Member
ametist said:
what group? shall we now get into the net and search all the religious jews that condemn zionism or did you do that already to find reasons to indicate why they may be all nuts because they dont approve zionism?
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Neutrei Karta. Even many of the other anti-Zionists groups (eg Satmar hasidim) think they're nuts.
 
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Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
xkatz said:
Neutrei Karta. Even many of the other anti-Zionists groups (eg Satmar hasidim) think they're nuts.
Click to expand...

Yup. The Neturei Karta are despicable radical fundamentalists. They're more or less Judaism's version of the Westboro Baptist Church. Their credibility as to what might be a legitimate Jewish position about pretty much anything is nil.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
Matemkar said:
Do you really think it is logical in this case?

Plestinians: A nation whose lands are occupied, generations are massacred and the remaining ones are displaced by the Zionists.

This Jewish Rabbi: A person who holds on to the teachings of his religion and keeps the lives and rights of nations sacred. Thus speaking against those hypocrites who use the name of his religion.

And what is the relation of these two with Stockholm syndrome?

For it to be tied to this syndrome, 1-] the former group (Palestinians) needs to be the invaders/occupiers and settlers, not the vice versa. 2-] the latter group (NK or other Jews who oppose Zionism) should be attacked by the former group, not the Zionist criminals who this group disassociate themselves from.
Click to expand...
Actually Israel completed pulled out of Gaza.

It forced jews to leave their homes which I consider a travesty.

What did it get for it? About 8,000 rockets launched from Gaza into Israel's populated cities.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
FearGod said:
Specially when mentioning Jesus as a jew while they used to call him as the son of a whore.

What a stupid propaganda ?! :facepalm:

I wonder why they didn't say in the song and Jesus the son of a whore was a jew.
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Who is "they"?
 
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