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Pagans, I don't understand you.
- Thread starter picnic
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Feel what you feel. Offense wasn't intended. I was not going to get into the depths of the "Pagan enough" issue in a thread where it didn't belong, and I had zero interest in making it personal. I still don't think it would be worthwhile. That you are quite unlike anyone who I would typically place within the Neopagan umbrella is intended as an observation, not a condemnation. Understand that I respect you a great deal... enough that I would consider it a greater disrespect to not be honest about how I see you within the framework of contemporary Paganism. You see things in ways that are strange to me. This, however, is a challenge to be learned from and one I have learned from. You've provoked thought in this one's brain perhaps more than any other member on the forums, ever. And given that I think too damn much all the time already, that's no small feat.
At any rate, if you want to have a conversation with me, feel free to PM. Pardon if I've caused undue consternation. I can only hope that positive lessons come of it.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Thank you. I appreciate that. I figure I stay out of both DIRs. Im not an initiated Buddhist and Im not the right type of pagan.
Aštra’el
Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
Pagans can be incredibly different from one another, so I will only speak for myself.
When I practice religion, the "goal" isn't to communicate with God(s). Any goals are usually of such profound magnitude that it takes time and training and maximum effort to achieve them... and religion/ spirituality gives me access to higher senses that I can wield to help me fulfill my Will, and the Will of God(s) as I may subjectively perceive. Communicating with God(s) is a frequent and beautiful part of the process, but it isn't "the goal".
But religion/ spirituality isn't always about all that. Sometimes it's just about having fun and exploring culture and growing and evolving our own human Nature, rather than obsessing over the world's greatest unsolved mysteries... like the origins of the universe and humanity, or whatever it may be that happens when we die.
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Cassandra
Active Member
In general I think it is dangerous to follow cults in which you are encouraged to let a spirit in and take you over.
Even more if it is a possessive spirit that:
- defines himself as master of the Universe (Megalomaniac)
- turns his hosts into "servants" (repression)
- is "jealous" towards other spirits (low nature)
- answers rejection with the promise of destruction
- promises to "torture" those that reject him (sadism)
- heralds suffering as a path to liberation (masochism)
- uses a torture device as a symbol of liberation (masochism)
- defines love in terms of "obedience" and "mercy" (sadomasochism)
- defines truth as parroting his words (repression)
- wants to spread itself uncontrollably (overly dominant, power hungry)
- defines everything in his way as "evil" to be destroyed (sick, ruthless)
- inspires his most ardent servants to discrimination, torture, murder, genocide
- uses brainwashing techniques to make minds ripe for take over (deceitful)
- claims to bring division and the sword
- insist on conquering the whole world (megalomaniac)
- does not define peace as harmony
- postpones happiness to the afterlife
- wants to collect free souls otherwise threatening them with destruction
- uses fear and threaths to force people do his will
- speaks of "bondage" and calls this freedom
- turns his own followers against each other in bloody conflicts
- tells servants to accept suffering
- does not punish the evil doers
- promotes slavery
- let his followers drink his blood (ritual vampirism)
- let followers eat his body (ritual cannibalism)
- promises to to destroy the world
- skull and bones worship
- etc. etc
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Kielbasa
Lackey
Are you attempting to draw a correlation between the Kim dictators in North Korea and Jesus Christ? That's a big bridge to divide, especially considering none of the North Korean "gods" claimed to have magical powers (other than Kim Jong-Il being able to shoot an exceptional round of golf).
Cassandra
Active Member
I am simply giving my view how you can recognize possessive spirits.
As to the Kims. Give them some time. The legends of "Godmen" build up over time. Some Godmen only got their official biography written three centuries after their death. By that time they can rise from local cult hero into Master of the Universe.
Things already attributed to Kim Jong Il (the Son of God):
Whether you worship Kim is of course a matter of belief. But with the right education/indoctrination from young age people will generally adopt such fake "religions", especially if you root out their own traditions. Of course the number of preachers makes a big difference when it comes to converting the population to a belief. Turning ardent believers in fanatical preachers is a very effective means in the spread of beliefs.
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Angy Ex Arcana
Pagan Priestess
For believers feel the presence of the divine and something wonderful that you can not explain in words.
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
"Kim wrote six full operas in two years, "all of which are better than any in the history of music," according to his official biography."
I responded earlier, but on further reflection...
You're pretty demanding of your deity. Of course, if God doesn't exist, religion is a waste of time. And maybe, if God exists but doesn't communicate, religion is also a waste (but not necessarily).
But it sounds like you're asking your deity to do an awful lot of hand-holding with you: tell me what what's right, help me make sure I do right, reassure me continually that you are there and watching and shepherding me and encouraging me...
Do you ask the same of any other persons you deal with? Your parents, when you are young, perhaps...but isn't the goal of life to become an adult ourselves? I know I still look to my parents for reassurance and guidance, but I'm responsible for me now. So how do you interact with family, friends, coworkers...your boss, those you supervise, those who provide services to you, and those you provide services to, and so on?
If you're treating God differently than you treat the people you interact with, I think you need to ask yourself why that is, and what the implications of that are.
This is how I interact with the spirits (and this would include God and/or gods, if I did deities, which I don't right now)--the human persons and other-than-human-persons in my environment: From those I am related to, or depend on, I want reassurance and help and direction--I'm a social being, and communicate to them what I want and need, and enter into a relationship with them in which I try to meet their needs and wants, too. From those I am not as closely related to, or don't as regularly or deeply interact with, I try to give respect and expect respect in return. From time to time I might ask for their assistance, and I try to be aware of their needs and give them assistance as I can. But I'm still responsible for me, and my actions and choices and behavior. I can't please everyone, but even when I can't I try to be respectful about it. But I always recognize that despite my wants and needs, things are not always going to go my way--just as they often did not with my parents.
I think our purpose is to take our place in the web of life, as an equal or at least a kin to everything else that's in the web, too. We'll be smarter/better/whatever than some, and not as good as others, and very similar to many more...and it's our job to take that role and do the best we can with it--not just for ourselves, but for the whole of the web.
Well, that's my approach, at least.
Cassandra
Active Member
In my view the Christian God is a very different entity than the spirits we call Gods. Simply look at his first line:
That kind of bargains are known in other Pagan religions though seen as dangerous. If your offspring forgets about the deal/covenant they will meet great adversity without even knowing how to stop it. In Christianity this kind of thing has always been painted as a pact with the Devil. Of course all Gods but their own are considered as Devil by them. I do not believe they worship the Jewish God, Jesus is nothing like the Jewish God.
Their God leads to total submissiveness, they call themselves servants of their Lord. The Jews and Pagans however have a various but very different relationships with their Gods. It can be a bosom friend relationship, it can also simply be a deal. For Pagans it is quite normal to go to a temple and be angry and shout to their Gods if they feel let down by them. And they will also break relations with such a God. Just like you would break relations with a good friend that lets you down when you need him most, or a business relation that does not meet his end of the bargain. Jews too have kept this kind a relationship with their God. That is why Israel means: He who fights with God. Jews are not submissive to their God and will disobey him when they strongly feel he is wrong. In the concentration camp they even trialled their God and found him guilty. They are not submissive like Christians and Muslims.
Christianity is however the official doctrine of the slave society of the Romans in which men let themselves be revered as Gods. Those men demanded the absolute submissiveness and servitude we still see in Christianity. In my opinion the Roman leaders simply changed a rebellious movement of the oppressed in an instrument of the oppressors. They merged the imperial cult in which emperors were worshiped as Gods into the Christian movement and totally changed it. The churches built in a cross stem from the imperial cult just like the whole priesthood infrastructure. They put the words of emperors in Jesus mouth. Christianity is not a religion like Paganism is, it is the first ideology. Real religion belongs to the culture of people. Christianity is a repressive ideology dressed up as a cult that copied a lot of successful practices from Pagan cultures to further conversion. But a cult is not the same as a traditional religion. The two are often confused.
I quite agree with you that a relationship with other spirits in Nature does not fundamentally differ from a relationship with humans, who are after all also spirits. A Pagan will respect each spirit according to its nature to preserve harmony. This attitude is the opposite of the Christian attitude that only wants to do the will of his God and spread his domination. Christians are basically people that became possessed by a spirit and have now become his slave. They admit that, they call it "bondage". Slaves will start seek security in submissiveness. In psychology it is called the "Stockholm syndrome". It is observed in situations that people feel totally dependent on the "mercy" of others. Then the mind will "surrender" to "save" oneself. This is the indoctrination technique the Romans first develped for their slave soldiers, later enforced all over the empire. It creates very loyal slaves.
People made into slaves are very jealous of free spirits, that is why they become such zealous converters.
That kind of slavish submissiveness in Christianity and Islam is very different from Pagan and also Jewish relationship with their Gods. For them the relation is simply an exchange. Just read the Old Testament, Abraham simply strikes a bargain with a God. Who then will be revered in exchange for prosperity and protection, as long as they hold on to the bargain.
That kind of bargains are known in other Pagan religions though seen as dangerous. If your offspring forgets about the deal/covenant they will meet great adversity without even knowing how to stop it. In Christianity this kind of thing has always been painted as a pact with the Devil. Of course all Gods but their own are considered as Devil by them. I do not believe they worship the Jewish God, Jesus is nothing like the Jewish God.
Their God leads to total submissiveness, they call themselves servants of their Lord. The Jews and Pagans however have a various but very different relationships with their Gods. It can be a bosom friend relationship, it can also simply be a deal. For Pagans it is quite normal to go to a temple and be angry and shout to their Gods if they feel let down by them. And they will also break relations with such a God. Just like you would break relations with a good friend that lets you down when you need him most, or a business relation that does not meet his end of the bargain. Jews too have kept this kind a relationship with their God. That is why Israel means: He who fights with God. Jews are not submissive to their God and will disobey him when they strongly feel he is wrong. In the concentration camp they even trialled their God and found him guilty. They are not submissive like Christians and Muslims.
Christianity is however the official doctrine of the slave society of the Romans in which men let themselves be revered as Gods. Those men demanded the absolute submissiveness and servitude we still see in Christianity. In my opinion the Roman leaders simply changed a rebellious movement of the oppressed in an instrument of the oppressors. They merged the imperial cult in which emperors were worshiped as Gods into the Christian movement and totally changed it. The churches built in a cross stem from the imperial cult just like the whole priesthood infrastructure. They put the words of emperors in Jesus mouth. Christianity is not a religion like Paganism is, it is the first ideology. Real religion belongs to the culture of people. Christianity is a repressive ideology dressed up as a cult that copied a lot of successful practices from Pagan cultures to further conversion. But a cult is not the same as a traditional religion. The two are often confused.
I quite agree with you that a relationship with other spirits in Nature does not fundamentally differ from a relationship with humans, who are after all also spirits. A Pagan will respect each spirit according to its nature to preserve harmony. This attitude is the opposite of the Christian attitude that only wants to do the will of his God and spread his domination. Christians are basically people that became possessed by a spirit and have now become his slave. They admit that, they call it "bondage". Slaves will start seek security in submissiveness. In psychology it is called the "Stockholm syndrome". It is observed in situations that people feel totally dependent on the "mercy" of others. Then the mind will "surrender" to "save" oneself. This is the indoctrination technique the Romans first develped for their slave soldiers, later enforced all over the empire. It creates very loyal slaves.
People made into slaves are very jealous of free spirits, that is why they become such zealous converters.
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I completely agree with you. I don't think it's anyone's place to try to define someone else's faith. Our label is just that, a label. For many of us faith is more complicated that one label could show. It becomes even more difficult to judge others when we're dealing with something like Paganism, which has no central beliefs or even an established definition. There is no "proper Pagan," anyone who claims to be Pagan is, there are no definitive guidelines, no test to take that determines if you're "Pagan enough." If you define your path as a Pagan one, I feel that there is no one who has the right to tell you you're wrong or unwelcome in the Pagan DIR.I'm full pagan.
I am a strict worshiper of the earth and follower of the internal wisdom, purity, and life within me.
I don't see paganism as a religion and do not claim it. It is a way of life. A lifestyle. Praying to the sun and moon, etc, I've done one way or another since I can remember. The neo- stuff (no pun) turns my everyday routine to something fancy and overdressed. I practice folk traditions considered pagan in their own right before Christianity defined it differently.
In my opinion only, pagan is too broad a word for a DIR. Some neopagans are syncretic others are head on. I can add suggestions in the staff forum if that's appropriate?
I don't relate to many pagans who I have the impression separate their religion from their everyday life. (Rituals become isolated). Maybe that's what you are referring to?
Is this DIR is only for those who believe in mythological deities, reconstruction to beliefs prior to abrahamic beliefs, and/or polytheistic? I could put pagan in my religion label; but, that's like putting "human" there.
I practice Buddhism as a religion (the physical dogma in contrast to paganism which is simple prayer, offerings, and ritual to the earth). I'm learning about the gods/goddesses of Indian and Japan. Don't know if that considers me a pagan.
If wee took out the words we choose to identify with, which DIR do we really belong to?
Sorry, this is so long. I am always asked this question because people think religion is supposed to be separate. I'm supposed to wear a doggy tag saying what I am rather than they accepting who I am.
What am I? A pagan practitioner who follows the Mystic Law by chanting to connect with the Gohonzon.
Who am I? A friend of the earth and a enlightened human.
I do find this insulting. I know you don't mean it this way. I was just sharing with picnic how our views about the word belief are different not wrong.
Let me know if you don't want me to post here anymore. I know I had situations with others here about my choosing not to identify as pagan in the "religion" section which is commonly associated with polytheism, reconstructionist faiths, and auras, crystals, and tarots.
To sum up my faith: (Going back to when I first came here) It's life.
Nam.
@Quintessence Im rereading your post. Is there such thing as a "proper" pagan? Someone who has a "pagan orientaion"?
In Christianity, christians always try to define another christians interpretation of Christ. Sometimes it would get so heavy that all of sudden christian X doesnt fit in mainstream christianity. Who defines a person as a christian-that christian and Christ or other Christians?
Proper pagan. Doesnt that mean I have to physically identify (label) myself as pagan to be one? Does it mean I need to believe in mythological deities? Do I need to see my practice as an isolates religjon? What doesnt define me as a proper pagan? (Remember. I am a strict worshiper of the earth and and the followerer of the internal, wisdom, purity, and such inside me)
I am confused. Thats like Buddhist telling me Im not becauaw the sect I practice started in thr 17th century. That doesnt make me no less a buddhist (enloghtened human). Like wise with pagan.
Now Im confused
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(If anyone can answer, that would be cool)
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