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I don't understand. I'm just reading this comment and I don't know if I should be offended.
@Carlita, I thought your posts were helpful. The DIR policy seems a little difficult to implement when people are not required to label themselves to match the religions in the DIR forums. Also it is difficult to implement when those religions lack creeds. (FWIW)
Maybe it is simpler for me to explain how I think about religion, and you can explain how pagans think differently. I just don't understand you guys.
When I practice religion the goal is to communicate with God.
- I want to know what God expects from me.
- I want to get some positive affirmations from God.
- I want God's help in making choices.
- I want continual evidence of God's existence
- I want God's encouragement
- Etc.
If God doesn't exist or God doesn't communicate, then religion is a waste of time from my perspective.
So how do pagans think differently?
In general I think it is dangerous to follow cults in which you are encouraged to let a spirit in and take you over.Yes, that is true. Many Christians feel led by the Holy Spirit to do various things and if it turns out well then they take it as proof of God's existence. I can totally respect that approach, because it is based on evidence - even if it isn't based on evidence that a scientist could publish.
Are you attempting to draw a correlation between the Kim dictators in North Korea and Jesus Christ? That's a big bridge to divide, especially considering none of the North Korean "gods" claimed to have magical powers (other than Kim Jong-Il being able to shoot an exceptional round of golf).In general I think it is dangerous to follow cults in which you are encouraged to let a spirit in and take you over.
Even more if it is a possessive spirit that:
These are all warning signs. In my opinion it is wise to stay away from cults in which spirits take over. Inviting spirits is a dangerous affair. Benign spirits do not want to take over, so others easily slip in instead. The practice is typical for possessive spirits and we typically find this in cults that are started by megalomaniac founders that let themselves be worshipped and glorified as the highest. Kim il Sung of North Korea is a modern example of that and shows how it can "inspire" (let the spirit in) millions to slavish servitude and holy belief through spiritual possession.
- defines himself as master of the Universe (Megalomaniac)
- turns his hosts into "servants" (repression)
- is "jealous" towards other spirits (low nature)
- answers rejection with the promise of destruction
- promises to "torture" those that reject him (sadism)
- heralds suffering as a path to liberation (masochism)
- uses a torture device as a symbol of liberation (masochism)
- defines love in terms of "obedience" and "mercy" (sadomasochism)
- defines truth as parroting his words (repression)
- wants to spread itself uncontrollably (overly dominant, power hungry)
- defines everything in his way as "evil" to be destroyed (sick, ruthless)
- inspires his most ardent servants to discrimination, torture, murder, genocide
- uses brainwashing techniques to make minds ripe for take over (deceitful)
- claims to bring division and the sword
- insist on conquering the whole world (megalomaniac)
- does not define peace as harmony
- postpones happiness to the afterlife
- wants to collect free souls otherwise threatening them with destruction
- uses fear and threaths to force people do his will
- speaks of "bondage" and calls this freedom
- turns his own followers against each other in bloody conflicts
- tells servants to accept suffering
- does not punish the evil doers
- promotes slavery
- let his followers drink his blood (ritual vampirism)
- let followers eat his body (ritual cannibalism)
- promises to to destroy the world
- skull and bones worship
- etc. etc
I am simply giving my view how you can recognize possessive spirits.Are you attempting to draw a correlation between the Kim dictators in North Korea and Jesus Christ? That's a big bridge to divide, especially considering none of the North Korean "gods" claimed to have magical powers (other than Kim Jong-Il being able to shoot an exceptional round of golf).
* Even before his birth, the future leader of North Korea was triggering miracles. Official biographers say his birth in a cabin on the slopes of Baekdu Mountain in February 1942 was foretold by a swallow and heralded by a double rainbow. When he was born, a new star appeared in the night sky.
* The first time he picked up a golf club, in 1994, Kim reportedly shot a 38-under par round on North Korea's only golf course, including 11 holes-in-one. He then decided to retire from the sport for ever.
* Kim has the ability to alter the weather simply through the power of thought.
* The fledgling leader was a genius as an infant, with official North Korean biographies stating that he had learned to walk at just 3 weeks and was talking at 8 weeks.
* As a junior high school pupil in Pyongyang, he corrected and chastised his teachers for their incorrect interpretations of history.
* Kim wrote six full operas in two years, "all of which are better than any in the history of music," according to his official biography.
* He designed the Tower of the Juche Idea, a 170-metre tower in the east bank of the River Taedong in central Pyongyang that is topped by a glowing red flame.
* Kim's official biography also claims that he wrote 1,500 books during his time at Kim Sung Il University, from where he graduated in 1964.
* According to the Korea Central News Agency, Kim is an expert on all aspects of the film industry and "improved the scripts and guided the production" of the movie "Diary of a Girl Student." His favourite movies are reportedly "Friday the 13th," "Rambo" and anything starring Elizabeth Taylor.
* Kim reportedly employs a servant to inspect every grain of rice that is served to him. Any with the most minor of flaws is discarded
Maybe it is simpler for me to explain how I think about religion, and you can explain how pagans think differently. I just don't understand you guys.
When I practice religion the goal is to communicate with God.
- I want to know what God expects from me.
- I want to get some positive affirmations from God.
- I want God's help in making choices.
- I want continual evidence of God's existence
- I want God's encouragement
- Etc.
If God doesn't exist or God doesn't communicate, then religion is a waste of time from my perspective.
So how do pagans think differently?
I responded earlier, but on further reflection...Maybe it is simpler for me to explain how I think about religion, and you can explain how pagans think differently. I just don't understand you guys.
When I practice religion the goal is to communicate with God.
- I want to know what God expects from me.
- I want to get some positive affirmations from God.
- I want God's help in making choices.
- I want continual evidence of God's existence
- I want God's encouragement
- Etc.
If God doesn't exist or God doesn't communicate, then religion is a waste of time from my perspective.
So how do pagans think differently?
That kind of slavish submissiveness in Christianity and Islam is very different from Pagan and also Jewish relationship with their Gods. For them the relation is simply an exchange. Just read the Old Testament, Abraham simply strikes a bargain with a God. Who then will be revered in exchange for prosperity and protection, as long as they hold on to the bargain.I want to know what God expects from me.
I completely agree with you. I don't think it's anyone's place to try to define someone else's faith. Our label is just that, a label. For many of us faith is more complicated that one label could show. It becomes even more difficult to judge others when we're dealing with something like Paganism, which has no central beliefs or even an established definition. There is no "proper Pagan," anyone who claims to be Pagan is, there are no definitive guidelines, no test to take that determines if you're "Pagan enough." If you define your path as a Pagan one, I feel that there is no one who has the right to tell you you're wrong or unwelcome in the Pagan DIR.I'm full pagan.
I am a strict worshiper of the earth and follower of the internal wisdom, purity, and life within me.
I don't see paganism as a religion and do not claim it. It is a way of life. A lifestyle. Praying to the sun and moon, etc, I've done one way or another since I can remember. The neo- stuff (no pun) turns my everyday routine to something fancy and overdressed. I practice folk traditions considered pagan in their own right before Christianity defined it differently.
In my opinion only, pagan is too broad a word for a DIR. Some neopagans are syncretic others are head on. I can add suggestions in the staff forum if that's appropriate?
I don't relate to many pagans who I have the impression separate their religion from their everyday life. (Rituals become isolated). Maybe that's what you are referring to?
Is this DIR is only for those who believe in mythological deities, reconstruction to beliefs prior to abrahamic beliefs, and/or polytheistic? I could put pagan in my religion label; but, that's like putting "human" there.
I practice Buddhism as a religion (the physical dogma in contrast to paganism which is simple prayer, offerings, and ritual to the earth). I'm learning about the gods/goddesses of Indian and Japan. Don't know if that considers me a pagan.
If wee took out the words we choose to identify with, which DIR do we really belong to?
Sorry, this is so long. I am always asked this question because people think religion is supposed to be separate. I'm supposed to wear a doggy tag saying what I am rather than they accepting who I am.
What am I? A pagan practitioner who follows the Mystic Law by chanting to connect with the Gohonzon.
Who am I? A friend of the earth and a enlightened human.
I do find this insulting. I know you don't mean it this way. I was just sharing with picnic how our views about the word belief are different not wrong.
Let me know if you don't want me to post here anymore. I know I had situations with others here about my choosing not to identify as pagan in the "religion" section which is commonly associated with polytheism, reconstructionist faiths, and auras, crystals, and tarots.
To sum up my faith: (Going back to when I first came here) It's life.
Nam.
@Quintessence Im rereading your post. Is there such thing as a "proper" pagan? Someone who has a "pagan orientaion"?
In Christianity, christians always try to define another christians interpretation of Christ. Sometimes it would get so heavy that all of sudden christian X doesnt fit in mainstream christianity. Who defines a person as a christian-that christian and Christ or other Christians?
Proper pagan. Doesnt that mean I have to physically identify (label) myself as pagan to be one? Does it mean I need to believe in mythological deities? Do I need to see my practice as an isolates religjon? What doesnt define me as a proper pagan? (Remember. I am a strict worshiper of the earth and and the followerer of the internal, wisdom, purity, and such inside me)
I am confused. Thats like Buddhist telling me Im not becauaw the sect I practice started in thr 17th century. That doesnt make me no less a buddhist (enloghtened human). Like wise with pagan.
Now Im confused
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(If anyone can answer, that would be cool)
I completely agree with you. I don't think it's anyone's place to try to define someone else's faith. Our label is just that, a label. For many of us faith is more complicated that one label could show. It becomes even more difficult to judge others when we're dealing with someone like Paganism, which has no central beliefs or even an established definition. There is no "proper Pagan," anyone who claims to be Pagan is, there are no definitive guidelines, no test to take that determines if you're "Pagan enough." If you define your path as a Pagan one, I feel that there is no one who has the right to tell you you're wrong or unwelcome in the Pagan DIR.