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Original Sin

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ceridwen018, Jun 2, 2004.

  1. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    She was told not to look back. She did blatantly disobey. She paid the price for disobedience. We all do.
     
  2. Mr Spinkles

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    If I were God, I would have forgiven her for disobeying me, especially for so minor an infraction as looking back when two cities were being destroyed behind her. She could have been the most loyal follower all her life, and one tiny infraction and she gets killed. Am I more forgiving than God?

    These stories serve only to threaten people into conforming their thoughts....indeed she was told not to look back, but she disobeyed and paid the price. The moral? Do what you're told, don't think for yourself...or else! :roll:

    An interesting sidenote: ever notice that the message is never "do what God tells you". It's always "do what I tell you God tells you".
     
  3. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Well said, Master Spinkles!

    Have you noticed how the topic "Bible and homosexuality" is veering towards "literal interpretation" (and whatever that may mean)? Your last para. would be appropriate there.
     
  4. quick

    quick Member

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    The Westmisnter Shorter Catechism says: Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
    A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God,[1] and to enjoy him forever.[2] (Notes are shown below)

    If we were robots, i.e. if there were not the possibility of incorrect moral choice, there could not be true fellowship--you cannot have fellowship with a robot or machine. Second, without evil against which to struggle, there could be no glory. There is no glory in running a race with no competitors; there is no glory in debate without an opponent.


    Notes:

    [1] Psalm 86. Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily. Rejoice the soul of thy servant: for unto thee, O Lord, do I lift up my soul. For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications. In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me. Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works. All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone. Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name. I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore. For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. O God, the proud are risen against me, and the assemblies of violent men have sought after my soul; and have not set thee before them. But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth. O turn unto me, and have mercy upon me; give thy strength unto thy servant, and save the son of thine handmaid. Show me a token for good; that they which hate me may see it, and be ashamed: because thou, LORD, hast holpen me, and comforted me. Isaiah 60:21. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. Romans 11:36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. 1 Corinthians 6:20, 31. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.... Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Revelation 4:11. Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    [2] Psalm 16:5-11. The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot. The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage. I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. Psalm 144:15. Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD. Isaiah 12:2. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Luke 2:10. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Philippians 4:4. Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Revelation 21:3-4. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
     
  5. quick

    quick Member

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    There are plenty of times when God is quoted in the Bible--i.e., he is actually speaking. See my post from Job posted above. The Bible is our authority, not our own opinions.

    Without trying to step on any toes, I maintain that any Christian who has studied, and has a good working knowledge of, the Bible knows it is by its very nature not literal, as we use the term. How can a parable, for example, be "literal"? It is a metaphor on its face. It's metphorical point is true, but the events described therein do not need to be true. On the other hand, Adam is a real man, and the first one created. There is no indication otherwise in the text, and indeed verses like Romans 5:12 confirm it (see text below).

    The Bible, through one if its primary human authors, tells us exactly what it is:

    See 2 Tim 3:16-17:

    "16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. "

    In Bible, the history is deemed to be historically accurate; prophesy accurate prophesy; metaphors instructive; etc. It is what is is. If you believe any parts of the Bible do not fit within Paul's description, however, then I think you have missed the point and are discounting the majesty and truth of the Scripture.



    Romans 5:12-14

    12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
     
  6. tigrers99

    tigrers99 Member

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    So, if one misreads Romans 5:12 without studying all of the following verses.....it will read like this to them:

    Romans 5:12..... sin came into existence for humans because Adam ate the fruit given him by his wife Eve (after God forbade the eating of it). So that explains why there exists mortuaries ? NO! "...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die ." (Gen.2:17) SPIRITUAL DEATH! All living things die....physically. The only living things that sin are humans that break any of God's commandments that would apply to us today. Adam & Eve were DEAD 'SPIRITUALLY' the day they were driven out of the Garden of Eden.
     
  7. Mr Spinkles

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    Make sure to note the word *quoted*. God does not speak for Himself, apparently, but a lot of people claim to speak on His behalf. Hence, they are truly saying "do what I tell you God told me to tell you".

    Personally, I am skeptical of second hand information "quoting" God....a lot of maniacs on street corners claim to speak on God's behalf, and frankly I don't think God needs these middlemen.

    On a sidenote-- tigrers99, other animals besides humans do engage in sinful behavior. Our closest cousin, the Chimpanzee, commits murder, uses bribery, and engages in primitive warfare. If this is not sinful, there seems to be a double standard.
     
  8. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Do Chimpanzees know the difference between good and evil? The Garden story shows us that man became aware of good and evil. Can we be sinners if we don't know the difference?
     
  9. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    quick,

    Who is to decide what is metaphor and what is to be taken literally? Could the story of Jesus' very life be some kind of metaphor? If not, how are you able to separate it from the rest of the bible so?
     
  10. Mr Spinkles

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    Chimps behave according to their distinct personalities and environmental factors, as do humans. Humans can sometimes feel conflicted about what they 'should' do when these factors conflict with each other, and my non-expert opinion would be that chimps feel conflicted sometimes as well.

    Here's an even more provocative question: Do humans know the difference between good and evil? If so, they appear to break these rules all the time, as do chimps.
     
  11. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    I think that you are right Mr. Spinkles. Humans are becoming more like chimps every day. They act out of a need for selfishness to perpetuate their own desires. This describes our society to a tea in this day and time. It is IIIIIIII and only IIIIII. They do fight and quarrel over power. They do steal from one another. We seem to becoming more like animals than the animals and humans are more dangerous. We have bigger sticks than they do. Maybe this is what Jesus meant when he said " That if Father God waited to long to intervene, then humans would wipe out life on this planet." Wonder how much more like the animals, we must become before God does intervene?
     
  12. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    Quote from quick early in the thread:

    "Without trying to step on any toes, I maintain that any Christian who has studied, and has a good working knowledge of, the Bible knows it is by its very nature not literal, as we use the term. How can a parable, for example, be "literal"? It is a metaphor on its face. It's metphorical point is true, but the events described therein do not need to be true. On the other hand, Adam is a real man, and the first one created. There is no indication otherwise in the text, and indeed verses like Romans 5:12 confirm it (see text below)."

    Of course, parables and other simliar stories in the Bible are metaphors used by God to explain things to His disciples or followers. I would contend though that the Bible is very literal in such cases as the creation of the world and what it takes to get into heaven.
     
  13. Mr Spinkles

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    martha, I would disagree with you a little. We humans have always been animals, and we are not moreso today than we were 3,000 years ago. We are capable of good, and we are capable of bad, as are other animals. Chimps are not innocent or gentle all the time, nor are they savage murderers all the time. They are and have always been something of a mix, and so have we....such is the nature of social mammals (remember the constant savagery of early history? believe me, martha, we are not more 'evil' today than we were back then).

    Chimps are capable of remarkable acts of love and charity as well as murder and savagery. We are more alike than most people realize.
     
  14. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Yes, humans are animals. I have often thought we can learn a lot from wolves. They have taken in human babies and raised them. They mate for life and have distinct societal rules.
     
  15. quick

    quick Member

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    It is usually quite obvious from either direct comment (i.e., a parable), or from context--especially context as a verse is quoted and referred to later in the Bible. I err on the side of literal interpretation. Also, in many parts of the Bible, it truly doesn't matter; in other areas, it is clear the story is and needs to be accurate and literal, and was so intended.

    This is why Chrisitans pray for illumination when they read Scripture--you cannot truly understand Scripture without the Holy Spirit's aid, no matter how bright you may be. This is also why you need not be bright at all but can understand the saving and necessary truth in the Bible.

    See this quote from Chapter I of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

    V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture.[10] And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.[11]

    Here is note 11 (Scripture on which this Section of the Confession is based):

    1 John 2:20, 27. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.... But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. John 16:13-14. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. 1 Corinthians 2:10-12. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Isaiah 59:21. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
     
  16. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    Mr. Spinkles, Sorry if it seemed like a cutsey answer but I was just as sincere as you were with your question. I really do fear for this worlds soul. I have never heard of such inhumanity to fellow man and I have lived a long time. Now it seems that the wars never stop. They used to but not anymore. Always killing somewhere. I really believe Jesus when He said, "Father would have to intervene or mankind would wipe out life here". And now so many more have the nukes and some of them actually are foolish enough to believe in limited nuclear war. Wicked through and through. Father God help us all.
     
  17. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    If Ronald Reagan had responded to Michail Gorbatjevs plea for total and world-wide nuclear disarmament instead of just leaving the conference where the suggestion was made, we might have slept easier now.

    Martha, "so many more have the nukes "... I understand that many USAmericans would prefer to be the only ones to have them.
     
  18. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    anders, I wish no one had the "nukes" really, not Americans not anybody. Because mankind does not have the capability to control that hate which we received when man aquired the knowledge of good and evil. I don't need to give examples, you just have to read the news. Here in our country, kids are killing kids in schools. Road rage is getting out of control. I know there are things I have to do for Father God before it is my time to go home, but so many times I wish He would hurry up with me. I am so sad at the world. Humans are so evil.
     
  19. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Not all humans are evil. There are a lot of good an just people in the world. I prefer to dwell on the good.
     
  20. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    I believe that the evil ones increase everyday, Lightkeeper, and I prefer to dwell on the Word of God. I prefer to believe the One who made me.
     
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