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Original Sin

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ceridwen018, Jun 2, 2004.

  1. LeaderNotFollower

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    I agree with Ceridwen's comment on God's so-called all-powerfullness. There are so many things he could help out with, yet he sits back and lets humans screw things up royally here on earth. I suppose it all comes back to theodicy. If God is so all-powerful, and so loving, how can he let 178,000 Americans die of diabetes each year, 4,000 children die of cancer each year, or 5,000 from domestic abuse? Those are just three examples I pulled off Google in 3 minutes, but there are thousands more. Why isn't God helping out, doesn't he love his creation. This blatent lack of interest that God exhibits in the human race really shocks me, I mean come on, he is the creator. Getting back on the topic of this thread, God could have very easily made humans 'sinless.' Why didn't he? Good question, I really don't know. It would have been so easy for someone as all-powerful as God.
     
  2. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    quick,

    Well, well, what have we here? This passage says that god meant for humans to sin and therefore become 'tainted' and that he did so for his own power trip. Even your own doctrine contradicts itself. God obviously WANTED for humans to be sinful. It says so right there. How is it fair that he then punishes people for doing what he wants? What is up with that?

    I hope to god (well, maybe not, hehe) that you can provide some ulterior evidence to prove me wrong here. (although if your own doctrine is saying something contrary to what you believe, you might be a 'lil screwed in that area) I've thought along these lines for awhile, but never have I had it actually proven to me-- and by a religious document no less!

    Do you really believe all of this? You think that humans are the opposite of all good? I can't even express my feelings on this properly! I am becoming more and more speechless with every paragraph I read! Why is the Catholic church (or any Christian church, really) so NEGATIVE!!

    It all comes back to the fact that this is what god intended. Given that, we basically have two options here: either, 'being evil is not a bad thing after all', or 'being evil is indeed a bad thing, and god created us thus because he likes shooting fish in a barrel'.

    If this be true, then your god is nowhere near 'just'.

    No taxation without representation. I'm not going to put out for someone who isn't willing to even be around.

    true blood,

    Yes, I have read the bible. I assume you are referring to the part where Jesus dies on the cross. Funny, but I don't recall that event removing our original sin. And so we remain tainted.
     
  3. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Ceridwen, You assume wrong. Jesus Christ dying on the cross only represents the sacrifice however the act of believing in God's Word grants the remission of sins. Obviously you feel this "god all mighty" should control everything or else you don't think he's worthy enough. God is merciful beyond measure to those who respect Him. Like as a father loveth his children so the Lord loveth them that respect him. You however tend to be disrespectful not only of God but towards other people's beliefs. I'm not saying God doesn't love you but what ever happened to "love one another"? How is a true christian believer always so "negative" as you put it? God doesn't deal with us after our sins nor does he reward us according to them. He forgives all our sins and healeth all our diseases. And its not a question of whether the truth of this agrees with our theology but rather a question of whether or not we agree with God's Word. You question then why doesn't God just heal everybody? Healing for all is God's will. However each and every person must rise up to it. Its our rightful and legal privilege. People fail due to a negative society. To claim and manifest God's healing one must believe on the positives of His Word and start living. Bags!, its God...he's able to bring about health and peace without antibiotics and medicine. God redeems our life from destruction and adds his safeness and warmth and love which makes life enjoyable. Verse 5 of Psalms 103 states God renews our youth like the eagle's. Not many people understand the greatness of this verse. It refers to an eagle found in the Orient. This kind of eagle will periodically soar to tremendous heights, and then suddenly, it will fold its wings under, head straight down, and bomb into the sea with as much speed as it can generate. When the eagle surfaces, it hasn't any feathers on its back, so must float back to shore and crawl in among the bushes until its feathers have grown out. God renews our youth like this eagle's. To get rid of all those dirty feathers, all those negatives, fears, worries, anxieties, all things that can burden one down...forget not the benefits and reach forth unto those things which are before. I realise you love to debate but no matter what one's beliefs, be wary on the words you may speak that could unsettle someone who finds their rest in God's Word.
     
  4. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    Romans tells us that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The key word there is all. Jesus tells us that He had come to redeem the fallen from the first Adam or Man. If you wish to argue with scripture and God, you should not ask insincere questions to get the answers you don't want to hear. It is the truth from God, All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The real questions you ask are concerning the Bible and if you can make it fit your beliefs. It doesn't so you decide your fate not this forum.
     
  5. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    We are all born tainted with original sin. However God has provided us with salvation through the death of His Son Jesus Christ. We screwed up and God is merciful enough to give us salvation despite our previous sins. Your argument, Ceridwen, would again go back to a John Locke style philosophy where man is born good and blaimless and can become corrupted. To say this would mean that we have the ability to live as Christ lived which is not possible.
     
  6. LeaderNotFollower

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    trueblood:

    "He forgives all our sins and healeth all our diseases."

    Lets start with this one. Now I do not know if you mean this as a metaphor or something, but if it is to be taken literally, it is quite false. Firstly, God does not cure diseases. This can easily be seen by the amount of people that die every day. Secondly, if God did cure diseases, we would be in real trouble. A human dies every 8 seconds, but a new human is born every 3 seconds. If God cured all diseases, this planet would quickly overpopulate, and in turn, eventually kill everyone. Thirdly, do you believe in hell? If so, hell is quite useless if God forgives all our sins.

    "Healing for all is God's will. However each and every person must rise up to it. Its our rightful and legal privilege."

    I'm not trying to offend you, but this statement is utter nonsense. I can not even interpret the first two sentences. The third; are you taking the ground that our laws, somehow are tied into whether God cures diseases, because that is what I got from this sentence. Our legal privilege to rise up to God's healing will? The truth is that God and law are quite seperate. Not only is there a strict seraration between church and state, and quite rightly so, but all laws were written by humans. How does God fit in legally?

    "People fail due to a negative society."

    Where do you think the negative society came from? Perhaps it comes from threatening little children with eternal damnation. Or perhaps it comes from hating your homosexual neighbor. Didn't someone important say "Love thy neighbor as thyself."? The truth, and I actually believe this, is that religion is the cause of the negative society. The only believers that come close to loving thy neighbors are the Amish.

    "Bags!" - What exactly did you mean by this?

    "Its God...he's able to bring about health and peace without antibiotics and medicine."

    This is an interesting topic. There have been a number of wrongful death and child endangerment suits brought up against christian scientists. The case: a child gets sick, lets make it pneumonia. Being christian scientists, his parents partake in the usual rituals and prayers, and ask God to cure their son. The child does dies, quite naturally, because he was not given medicine or taken to a hospital. The state brings up charges on the parents for wrongful death. My question, where was God?

    Your last sentence is what scares me about believers:
    "I realise you love to debate but no matter what one's beliefs, be wary on the words you may speak that could unsettle someone who finds their rest in God's Word."
    Now I love to debate as well, but I could never tell someone that their beliefs were wrong. In touchy topics like these, there is just no way to know who is right and who is wrong. What I could do is offer up an alternative. The last piece there: "...unsettle someone who finds their rest in God's Word." Again, do not take offense, but this is my life goal, to unsettle people, to make them question their faith. Without question and doubt, believers just fall victim to control.
     
  7. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    In my opinion only and I do not intend to proselytize any one else into believeing as I do but it does appear to me that this forum is mostly controled by atheists whose only intent is bash and debase and ridicule the belief of Christians and to cry wolf when told the answer to the questions they ask? Now please do not pay any attention to the ramblings of an old woman because I certainly would not want to be accused of trying to sway your discussion. But it is my opinion that
    JESUS CHRIST IS LORD OF ALL.
     
  8. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    true blood,

    I used to respect him. I never saw any mercy. Not that that is why I don't believe in god now, everyone has tough times; but it definately doesn't help his case.

    I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone else-- that has never been my intention. During my last post, however, I was literally quite flabbergasted. Which reminds me...no one has yet responded to my comments on the Westminster Confessions. Why is that, do you think?

    I never said believers were negative, but that the Church was negative. However, I would say that anyone who believes all humans to be the opposite of all good needs a hefty dose of optimism.

    I wasn't aware that god is into politics and the judiciary system.

    Why do you need society when you can just go to church?

    Kind of like sugar pills for a hypochondriac.

    Call me crazy, but I am not finding this footnote anywhere in my bible.

    If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen. I agree with what LeaderNotFollower said here.

    I understand what you are saying-- I have friends who are going through tough times right now who believe in god, and I refrian from discussing these things with them, because if it gives them comfort and peace of mind, then that is more important at this point. But you see, you're not going to find any of them on these forums.

    If you want to talk with other Christians about how great Christianity is, then go to the Christian forum. However, if you are interested in debating and exchanging ideas with people, and yes, even shaking someones set beliefs, please stay.
     
  9. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Martha,

    Yes, we all know your opinion. I have a question though: where have I bashed your beliefs, and likewise, where have I 'cried wolf' at these so-called 'answers'?

    LCMS,

    Why is it not possible? Is Jesus afraid of a little competition? Seriously though, aren't we supposed to strive to be 'christ-like'? If god wants us to be 'christ-like' so badly, then why doesn't he even give us a chance? Shooting fish in a barrel.

    And could someone please explain the Westminster Confession thing? That is really bothering me.
     
  10. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting that there is no mentioning of "original sin" in the Bible. The concept was not invented until Augustine. The Eastern Christian churches do not believe in a "fall" in St. Augustine's meaning as something inherited.

    Romans 5:12 has been used as an argument, but I don't find it convincing. Moreover, I don't like "by one man" in that verse. Assuming that the stories are for real, I would say, like the Qur'an, that Adam and Eve share the responibility. There is no inherited sin in Judaism. They have studied the book since long before Paul invented Christianity, and they wrote the book, so they should know.
     
  11. teapot_tall_and_yummy

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    Original sin is more or less the concept that all humans are sinful. Bottom line. No one's saying a baby is horribly sinful, but that they are separated from God, and will sin in their life.
     
  12. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    anders,

    Very good and interesting point there. It's kinda like pergatory then? Something just made up by the Church?
     
  13. quick

    quick Member

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    Original sin is most certainly mentioned in the Bible, conceptually. See Gen 3:6-8; Gen 6:5, Eccl 7:29, Rom 3:23, and Eph 2:1. The Jews have a wholly different concept of atonement. Paul was a Jew, by the way. A Jew's Jew--a zealous Pharisee, learned, studied as a protege of Caiaphas, the High Priest, brilliant, and most importantly, a man God chose to carry the Word to the Gentiles. I think his work is reliable.
     
  14. quick

    quick Member

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  15. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Quick,

    I have checked the verses you mentioned, and I don't find one single word even remotely suggesting the concept of original = inherited sin. I find the view that all humans are sinners. But I am not alone in thinking that there is no mentioning of original or inherited sin in the Bible. In questions like this I mainly rely on the Swedish National Encyclopedia and Harris: "Understanding the Bible" as my primary printed sources. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia on the Internet tells us that the idea starts with St. Augustine.

    Even granted that we are the creation of a deity, how could we behave in another way than that deity intends? If humans are imperfect, my firm view is that the deity himself/herself/itself is to blame and not the humans.
     
  16. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    quick,

    Perhaps. Yet then again, nothing happens without god permitting it, does it? Everything that we say and do is part of god's plan, which he himself created. The sin of Adam and Eve was part of god's plan, was it not? Therefore, god most certainly did cause sin, by A) writing it into his plan, and B) putting tempataion (and therefore opportunity) front and center. By allowing the 'Great Fall' to proceed, god is 'guilty' of causing sin, for nothing happens which god does not want to happen, or which god has not planned. You can argue that sin was caused by the serpent and by Adam and Eve, and the tree of life even, but god is the one who put them all together in those circumstances.

    The bottom line here, is that god was 'pleased' by the sin of Adam and Eve. The word 'pleased' is a positive term, suggesting positive feelings. This means that god WANTED sin, and was HAPPY that it came about. If you are witness to a murder, but do not bring your testimony forward, and yet your presence at the scene is discovered, you could be tried as an accomplice. If your friend is emotionally bankrupt, and on the brink of suicide, but you tell no one and do nothing to help, then you would most certainly be to blame when they kill themselves. Likewise, if you lay a bunch of knives in the cradle of a small child, you are to blame when they cut themselves.

    Your entire line of criticism revolves around a concept that God owes us something, and that your sense of equity is correct as a concept of cosmic justice.

    I argue not that god owes us something, but that WE do not owe HIM anything.

    Human morality and therefore the human concept of justice is derived much from the moral concepts taught within the bible and other holy books. Since god 'inspired' those books, then I think it is safe to say that I am holding him to his own standard.

    This is a most fabulous analogy, as I am a painter. I would argue that I do indeed owe something to my paintings. I owe it to them that I will use my talents to their fullest potential on them, and I owe it to them to keep them safe from harm. I owe them the right to be seen by others (if I deem them good enough, heh, heh). However, a painting is a far cry from a human being. All of those things which I listed as owing to my paintings are things that affect me personally, not necessarily the painting. This is because a painting is not a living thing. A human, on the other hand, most certainly is, and with that life, comes many needs and requirements that god doesn't seem to be managing properly.

    He created us, therefore he does indeed owe us. You don't breed puppies and then expect for the puppies to just do whatever you say, and obey your commands of 'sit' and 'stay' because they 'owe' you for making their lives possible.

    You would say that we owe god because he created us. Well, I say that I didn't ask to be created. God did so because he wanted to. The alternative would be the concept that god created us with the idea in mind that we would feel like we owed him, and that is nothing but ego stroking.

    A teenager who is left out of the loop and constantly told that 'they won't understand' or that 'they're too young' is going to become a little resentful. If god wants us to respect him so much, he needs to make his 'sense of justice' known to us so that we may properly understand him. Otherwise, it is his own loss.

    Are you proud of god? Well then, it seems that you would be prideful as well. I am not sure what 'pride' I have revealed to you, but if you could please point it out to me, that would be great. (oh, and one other thing: not believing in god does not warrant pride, ok?)

    It seems to me that in order to be an idolator, you have to idolize someting. You idolize god, whereas I do not idolize anything. Seems to me that you are the idolator here.

    So, who is the root of all sin, again?

    Well, the way I see it is this: I'd rather believe god is something which exists, rather than something which does not exist. I exist, therefore it works out great!

    Incongruous with god's plan? Why thank you, I take that as a compliment. Yes I agree, I am sure that god didn't count on his little creations showing him up. WE SHALL NOT DEVIATE FROM THE PLAN!!!
     
  17. hagloog

    hagloog New Member

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    I am a Christian, but I don't believe in original sin. I believe that God created us with freewill. With that freewill, people can either choose to sin, or attempt to live a sinless life. Notice that i say "attempt" to live a sinless life. Being sinless is, to me, a rather impossible feat. However, if one at least attempts to remain sinless, then one can still live a moral life.
     
  18. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    Quote from Ceridwen:

    "A teenager who is left out of the loop and constantly told that 'they won't understand' or that 'they're too young' is going to become a little resentful. If god wants us to respect him so much, he needs to make his 'sense of justice' known to us so that we may properly understand him. Otherwise, it is his own loss."

    I am a teenager, Ceridwen, and God's laws appear clear enough to me. Clear enough, that I would defend them in earnest. After all, who would defend something they didn't understand or accept?
     
  19. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Leadernotfollower,

    I was quoting psalms 103. It is a tremendous example of knowledge and praise and the reading of it thrills they who love God. For born-again believers there are tremendous spiritual truths hidden in this psalm as we learn from them. Perhaps I was wrong to quote them to non-believers however I feel even from a human point-of-view it can set at peace the hearts of any man or woman but I am not naive of the Adversary. His work is present on these boards. As for you saying that "God doesn't heal all our [true believers] diseases, well I would say it does. Just because your or my theology doesn't agree, it doesn't invalidate it or make it less God's Word.

    Verse 3 of Psalms 103 very plainly says "Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all [without exception] thy diseases." He must or He is a liar; but God is no liar. Perhaps this verse doesn't include un-believers. Why should it? Healing is God's Will unto those that know him, I would say. And when I say it's our rightful and legal privilege I'm speaking of God's people that know him. Whether you can interpret that or not is not God's fault not mine but your own lack of understanding His Word.

    You say that religion is a cause of a negative society. This I agree with you on. There is no "religion" in the eyes of God. Religion is man-made. God dwells in the heart of those born-again with his seed. It's not a religion but a living presence within his true believers. A fellowship. Not a religion.

    You say only the Amish come close to "love thy neighbour as thyself" but let it be known that this love is Old Testament. This love is conditioned upon how one loves themselves. Jesus Christ gave us a natural love. "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." Jesus told us to love each other with the spiritual love of God in a renewed mind in manifestation. This is only possible when one becomes born again by God's Spirit and this marks the distinction. Agape.

    You say God can't bring about health and peace without antibiotics and that lawsuits have been brought about against "christian scientist" as you put it, by parents that partake in rituals and prayers asking God to cure their child. These are not true believers in God or they lack understanding. I'm only 24 yrs old but if I had a son or daughter fall ill I would see to it they received the best medical care they needed with much thanksgiving to God to take care of them and to see that the doctors do an excellent job. You're example of parents ignoring a childs health is a prime example how "religion" can twist the minds.

    You say your life goal is to unsettle people and to make them question their faith. A clear display of character you are.

    Cerdwin,

    You have claimed to be only interested in the thrill of debate. This forum is a mockery of debate. If anything, this forum is a medium of confessing a person's belief or raising a question regarding one's "religion" while people like you display their mockery in the name of "debate". This idea of having "religious debate", in essence that there is a God, only condems people. A true genuine debate is for politics or within College where there is actually a "vote" or a "judge" to declare a winner. Our "religious debate" will be judged by the true Judge, God Himself, in the fullness of time.
     
  20. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    LCMS,

    Fabulous, I am a teenager as well. If you could explain god's 'ever elusive' concept of justice to me, that would be great.
     
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