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Original Sin

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ceridwen018, Jun 2, 2004.

  1. LeaderNotFollower

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    true blood:

    I'm afraid I am not familiar with the psalms, because I have never been a Christian. But I am glad you agree with me about 'religion.' I am also glad you would take your child to the hospital if he requires such a trip; I was just using the 'scientists' as an example.

    Just as a clarifying point, I have absolutly no problem with anyone believing in God. My character, as you have commented on, is defined, I think, by my acceptance of others beliefs. I will never tell someone they are wrong for what they believe, but, and I am sure I mentioned this somewhere in another thread, I will offer an alternative. To me, someone who follows their faith blindly is the one with a deficience in character.

    "Jesus told us to love each other with the spiritual love of God in a renewed mind in manifestation. This is only possible when one becomes born again by God's Spirit and this marks the distinction. "

    Just because Jesus said it, doesn't mean people are doing it. Many people, calling themselves followers, will follow Jesus when it is convenient for them. If something is not convenient, they will dismiss it. If all of Jesus's followers followed his teachings, then I believe we would live in a truly wonderful and peaceful world; and I can even say that as a non-believer/follower. But humans are flawed, and Jesus's teachings are often discarded because they are too difficult for us. Soren Kierkegaard, a great yet unrecognized philosopher of the mid-1800s, wrote all about this. Christianity is too difficult for humans, and none of them are practicing it correctly.

    I do not presume that I am correct on these subjects, but I do presume that you and everyone else on this site can not be 100% correct either. No one has the truth because no one knows the truth. Only when we die will we learn the truth.
     
  2. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    God is more merciful than He is just. That is all I can say. If you don't believe in Christianity and have not read the Bible this can probably escape you. When we look at how much we have messed up (throw original sin out the window for a second) in regular day to day life, you can ask yourself how on Earth can I ever be good enough? God is not vengeful. If he was, he would have us stew in our own sin and not even bother with our eternal fate. However, God took pitty on us and our fallen race, and sent His Son to die for all of humanity's sins. Now, if God was truly just we would be damned without any defense against it. It depends upon your hermanutic (I think I spelled it right). Do you look for God's love for you in the Bible and church teachings or do you look for a way to disprove God?
     
  3. LeaderNotFollower

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    LCMS, I think your post was refering to mine, since they are right next to each other. I have read some of the bible, and I'm familiar with the discussions I participate in. Just some questions from your post:

    "God took pitty on us and our fallen race..."

    Is our race really fallen? Is there an unfallen race? Why didn't God design us so that we wouldn't fall?

    "...and sent His Son to die for all of humanity's sins."

    Why did God have to send his son to die on earth? Couldn't he just take care of everything up in heaven? He is all powerful, right? Plus that's not a very nice thing to do to your own son. Why didn't he just take care of the sins by crucifying some criminal or something?

    "If God was truly just..."

    So you don't think God is just? I thought that was a biggie.

    "...do you look for a way to disprove God?"

    I'm not specifically out to disprove God, I just like asking questions. My philosophy: The first thing I'm told is not always the correct one.
     
  4. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    I am sorry that I might have misled you. I was writing in response to Ceridwen (see post above yours). Sorry I did not mention that. I did not mean to say God is not just. He is and has said so in Scripture. What I was trying to say was that God was more merciful than truly just on our behalf. Think about this, we destroy his world with our sin and openly defy him in the same way. Now, I believe that if God was truly just, we should be damned for our sin. God owes us nothing to spare us and it is fully just for him to damn us. But he is merciful. That was the point I was trying to make. Sorry for any confusion.
     
  5. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    LCMS,

    Two words: Sodom and Gomorrah...or three if you count the conjunction.

    I would say, that in looking for god's love, I found disproof.
     
  6. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    I would also have you note that he listened to Abraham and agreed to spare the city if five good people could be found in the city. The city did not have even five. By the way, how do we know Sodom and Gomorrah really existed?
     
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    LCMS,

    Asking for 5 people doesn't seem very merciful to me. That's like me holding a candy bar above my head and telling my little cousin that she can have it if she can reach it. Of course she's not going to be able to do it, because it's not a fair circumstance.

    Oh honey, let me tell ya, do NOT even go there. By admitting that some parts of the bible are fictional, you are calling the entire thing into question and that is a whole nother can of worms!
     
  8. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    The stories in the Bible where God to any modern reader appears cruel and merciless are too many to count. Even in the days when I didn't for example react to all genocides ordered by God during the Israelite invasion of Palestine, I was immensely angered and shoched by the story of Uzzah in 2 Sam 6. For those of you who won't look it up: the poor guy tried to steady the Lord's ark when the carrying oxen stumbled. For the offence of touching the ark with his hand, Uzzah was promptly killed by God.
     
  9. quick

    quick Member

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    I am sorry. Here is full text; perhaps I cited the wrong verses. Check out Romans 5:12 in particular, as it discussed sin entering the world by one man, and it being removed by one man--Jesus--all below:

    [6] GEN 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ACT 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation. ROM 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 1CO 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
     
  10. quick

    quick Member

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    Frankly, who are you to question the justice of God? See these verses from Job 38, as a beginning lesson in humility:

    "1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

    2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
    with words without knowledge?
    3 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
    5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
    6 On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone-
    7 while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels [1] shouted for joy?

    8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,
    9 when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness,
    10 when I fixed limits for it
    and set its doors and bars in place,
    11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
    here is where your proud waves halt'? "

    Exactly who are you to question God's justice? We finite beings cannot even comprehend true justice.

    What you must understand is that all men who have ever lived, save one, deserved death. Uzzah, David, the Hittites, the thieves on the cross, Peter. God can do no wrong to us--we are all born in sin and deserve the worst. The one and only man who did not deserve death, Jesus, died and descended into hell, bearing all of mankind's sin on his back as the perfect sacrifice and atonement, and then was raised again. Just as Adam brought sin into the world, Christ removed it for those who believe in him.

    All men in the Old Testament (or elsewhere) deserved whatever they got--they did not even deserve to be born! And we certainly deserve no mercy, but God gave it to us freely, by surrendering his own blameless and perfect son to die, so justice would be served, man's debts would be paid and atoned for, and we could have eternal life with God, in the manner of fellowship God intended before Adam brought sin into the Garden.
     
  11. LeaderNotFollower

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    quick:

    I'm still a little shaky on your last post. I'm sure I've mentioned this in another thread, but why didn't God protect against sin. He is all-powerful, right? Why didn't me create Adam with sin protection?

    Since God didn't ensure against sin, it took place, I guess. But it all depends on your own definition of sin. Now I know I've asked this next question in another thread somewhere, but I never got my answer. Why couldn't God take care of sin right from heaven? Then he wouldn't have had to send his son down to take care of it.

    Now, Noah and the flood. Doesn't this story demonstrate that God is fallible? The world was so full of sin, that God had to kill everyone and start over. Well why didn't God just make sure, when he created everything, that this wouldn't happen?

    Adam can't really be blamed for bringing sin into the world. He just did what he was told by Satan. Shouldn't Satan be blamed for sin? Now as for this sentence:
    "Exactly who are you to question God's justice?"
    I think it's necessary to question everything about God. After all, it's our own lives we are talking about. Without questioning God, Christianity wouldn't even exist.
     
  12. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    Don't worry Ceridwen, I believe in a litteral translation of the Bible. The last sentence about Sodom and Gomorrah was made in jest.
     
  13. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    Ceridwen Quote:

    "Asking for 5 people doesn't seem very merciful to me. That's like me holding a candy bar above my head and telling my little cousin that she can have it if she can reach it. Of course she's not going to be able to do it, because it's not a fair circumstance."

    Read Genesis 19: 1-29 (the story of Sodom and Gomorrah)

    You would be surprised what God could and would have done if Abraham had not pleaded with Him to be merciful. God gave the people in Sodom and Gomorrah a chance (only five "good" people not "exceptionally righteous people" people in two whole cities). How many people would you consider to be good people that you meet in your everday life. The fact that there were not even five, attests to the sinfullness of the two cities. An example of this sinfullness is seen in all of the men of the cities coming to Lot's house demanding that he release the angels of God so that they could have sex with them (the angels were men). This is abhorrable.
     
  14. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    LCMS,

    What? Killed them more?

    How did the cities get like this, exactly? It seems that god is acting like they were good, and then, HOLY CRAP! They're bad all of the sudden. I think that god has a responsibility to manage his people. He can't just let them on their own, and then get mad once they've gone to ****.

    Leader,

    As far as the flood story goes, Here's another little interesting tidbit. I don't know if you know this, but the reason that the people became so 'sinful' and then had to subsequently be destroyed, is because god allowed for his angels to interbreed with humans. Noah and his family were not saved because they were necessarily righteous, but because they were the only ones with 'pure' human blood. I'm sorry that I don't have my bible on me top give you the exact verses, but I assure you, it's in there.
     
  15. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    "Noah and his family were not saved because they were necessarily righteous, but because they were the only ones with 'pure' human blood."- Cerdwin Quote

    Where is that in the Bible? There is no mention of Angel blood in humans. In reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, read Gen 19:1-29 and you will see that God did give the people a chance.
     
  16. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    No, LCMS Sprecher, the only people who got a chance were the members of Lot's household.
    There was interbreeding between "the sons of God" and "the daughters of men" (Gen 6:4). But I agree with you that Noah was saved because he "was a just man and perfect in his generations" (Gen 6:9). I find no other reason.
     
  17. Mr Spinkles

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    Even if there was ONE good person in the two cities, I wouldn't destroy both cities, killing everyone including that good person. Am I more merciful than God?
     
  18. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    By jove, I believe you are! Everyone hurry, we must bow to the almighty Spink!

    Like I said, I don't have my bible handy because I'm out of town, but once I get home I assure you I'll cite my source!...or apologize and clarify--either way, this should get interesting!
     
  19. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    There was not a good person in either of the cities except Lot and his family; and they were spared.
     
  20. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    I think that turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt isn't exactly saving her.
     
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