One Saviour?

[Sleeppy]

Whomever mary and joseph's father has no bearing on the lineage of jesus.

False.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva,
Do you believe that Jesus was a false Messiah? From statements you have made, I get the impression you think he failed to fulfil the law of Moses. Do you not believe that he allowed himself to be crucified? Do you not believe he was raised from the dead? Do you not believe he will return to judge the living and the dead?

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva,
Do you believe that Jesus was a false Messiah? From statements you have made, I get the impression you think he failed to fulfil the law of Moses. Do you not believe that he allowed himself to be crucified? Do you not believe he was raised from the dead? Do you not believe he will return to judge the living and the dead?

I am not a believer in the Abrahamic God.

I have an interest in Religions, Philosophy, Language, the movements of ancient people, and the spreading and mixing of all of these.

I am debating from what the Bible actually says.


*

 

[CMike]

Ingledsva,
Do you believe that Jesus was a false Messiah? From statements you have made, I get the impression you think he failed to fulfil the law of Moses. Do you not believe that he allowed himself to be crucified? Do you not believe he was raised from the dead? Do you not believe he will return to judge the living and the dead?

Err they are the laws of G-d.

Moses just wrote them down.

 

[CMike]

Originally Posted by CMike
Whomever mary and joseph's father has no bearing on the lineage of jesus.

False.

If jewish law and the Torah has no meaning in this to you than you are correct.

Following the Torah lineage goes solely by the biological father.

 

[Thief]

I don't see that being a Savior has anything to do with lineage.

That's like asking Jesus for a green card.

Find the item that allows you to enter heaven.
(I think that item would be the parables).

If that item came from Jesus....He would be your Savior.

If you enter heaven by the word of Moses....He would be your Savior.

If you enter by Muhammad...He would be your Savior.

And I have not ruled out that you might find your own way there.

As a rogue theologian, I realize I am at great risk.
I follow no one....no one follows me.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Inglesva,
Does the Bible say that Jesus was a false Messiah?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Tell me CMike, what do the three pilgrim festivals recall? Why does God say 'Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.'? (Exodus 23:17)

 

[CMike]

Why do you ask?

 

[Ingledsva]

Inglesva,
Does the Bible say that Jesus was a false Messiah?

He does not fulfill the requirements for the Tanakh Messiah.


The NT claims he is the Messiah.


That is Messiah - not a God - not part of a trinity, etc.


*

 

[Sleeppy]

If jewish law and the Torah has no meaning in this to you than you are correct.

Following the Torah lineage goes solely by the biological father.

Jesus had at least 1 biological father, according to the NT. There is no Jewish law you could cite, disqualifying Jesus' lineage from his grandfather (or even Joseph). The laws actually work against your claims.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus had at least 1 biological father, according to the NT. There is no Jewish law you could cite, disqualifying Jesus' lineage from his grandfather (or even Joseph). The laws actually work against your claims.

He would only have one biological father, if He did, and that would be assumed to be Joseph.
Speculations on romans etc don't interest me unless they are backed by facts.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Inglesva,
In what sense does Jesus not fulfil the requirements of the Tanakh?

 

[Redemptionsong]

CMike,
I'm interested to hear your perspective on why God should have chosen these festivals as worthy of special attention.
The law seems to provide us with an earthly understanding of events, which in Christ, under the new covenant, are given a spiritual significance.

 

[Ingledsva]

Inglesva,
In what sense does Jesus not fulfil the requirements of the Tanakh?

Google a Jewish site and read the whole argument.



*

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva, This is what Wikipedia says;
Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[3][4] Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of The Temple, a Messianic Age of peace[5] and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth,[6] and since Jews believe that none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards, except for the return of many Jews to their homeland in Israel), he is not a candidate for messiah.

Well, none of this is actually denied by the Tanakh!

As far as idolatry is concerned, Jesus Christ is not worshipped as a human person, but as Holy Spirit.

The failure in understanding comes mainly from the fact that no distinction has been made between the prophecies that relate to the first and second comings of Christ. The whole focus seems to have been turned to the Messiah's final judgement.

With God's complete scripture in front of us it is possible to see clearly what God intended. And it's no surprise that the prophecy of the Tanakh was hard for Jews to disentangle - in the NT we are told that some things were intentionally kept a mystery. Had God not done so, the powers of darkness would not have crucified Jesus, and this was a necessary part of God's plan.

 

[Redemptionsong]

In the Talmud in Sanhedrin 97 it is written:

"The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost."

It's a pity more notice wasn't taken of this interpretation of Genesis - with each day representing a thousand years of human history, starting with Adam and Eve. It clearly points to day four (the Sun, Moon and stars) as being of great significance. Yet, the very Messiah that was expected was later rejected by mainstream Judaism. Why? Because he didn't fit the false expectations of many Jewish people.

 

[CMike]

CMike,
I'm interested to hear your perspective on why God should have chosen these festivals as worthy of special attention.
The law seems to provide us with an earthly understanding of events, which in Christ, under the new covenant, are given a spiritual significance.

Sorry for the delay, I'll get to the answer.

I was just a bit busy.

 

[CMike]

Inglesva,
In what sense does Jesus not fulfil the requirements of the Tanakh?

Some of the messianic prophesies are:

Michah 4:3
World peace

Ezekiel 37

One uniformedly accepted by the jews king.

All the jews will come to Israel

All the jews will stay in Israel

All nations will worship one G-D

The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever.

As well as:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

During the messianic era ALL of these prophesies will be fulilled.
"Second coming" is purely a christian invention. It's not part of the Tanach (five books of Moses, plus prophets and scriptures)

 

[CMike]

In the Talmud in Sanhedrin 97 it is written:

"The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost."

It's a pity more notice wasn't taken of this interpretation of Genesis - with each day representing a thousand years of human history, starting with Adam and Eve. It clearly points to day four (the Sun, Moon and stars) as being of great significance. Yet, the very Messiah that was expected was later rejected by mainstream Judaism. Why? Because he didn't fit the false expectations of many Jewish people.

Those "false expectations" are the messianic prophesies from G-D given to the prophets.