"Oh my god, you're SO white."

[PureX]

What is a POSITIVE white stereotype??

I think Stacey needs to hear it..So do I right about now.

Love

Dallas

A Navajo friend and I were teasing each other one time, and he said to me, "Why don't you round-eyes go back to Europe where you came from?" He hesitated a moment and then added, "But leave the plumbing".

*smile*

 

[PureX]

Please explain how it is "experience" when a non-white has no idea what it's like to be a white person?

They see how white people live, and they live in a predominantly white culture. White people, on the other hand, rarely see how other cultures live, and rarely live in other cultures. If you still can't see the difference, then I think you're working at remaining ignorant.

Just because they can see white culture doesn't mean they know first-hand what it's like to be a part of it.
The same as white people can see other cultures, but not know first-hand what it's like to be a part of it. (although there are exceptions, of course)

Nothing is 100%. This is a discussion of generalities, remember. Generally speaking, they do know white culture. Whereas whites do not know theirs.

I just don't understand how you're calling one OK and knowledgeable, and the other ignorant and insulting.

It's not complicated. Perhaps you're not trying to understand.

It's like in Jr. High, I heard this black kid at lunch ranting about how much white people sucked and how blacks were so much better and he wanted to go out and kill a bunch of crackers.

...If THAT'S not a myopic and racist mentality, I don't know what is. His feelings didn't come from knowing what it was like to be white. They came from race-based hatred. Racism.

Those words came from the fear he feels every day being a minority in a white majority culture. It's a fear you don't feel, and so don't understand.

Just because they know they're a minority doesn't make them any more tolerant or understanding of the majority.

His fear is real. And it's based on aspects of truth that you know little about. Truths like how much more likely it is that he will be arrested and convicted one day for a crime he didn't commit, simply because he's a black male. And he knows that no one but his mamma will believe him or care.

Well, you brought up being myopic. Which deals with tolerating and understanding other cultures. Maybe I wasn't clear?

The term myopic has nothing to do with tolerating other cultures. It refers to a form of intellectual/cultural tunnel-vision. Like a horse wearing those flaps beside his eyes to keep him from seeing side to side.

I'm saying that I see more white people take on other cultures as their own than I do non-whites. ie: not just tolerating other cultures, but truly understanding and identifying with them because they LIVE it. Your argument was that minorities understand whites, not the other way around. And whites could "empathize, but not identify" with other races.

They're a bunch of adolescent posers who know nothing of the cultures they mimic. I lived in Chicago for many years, in the inner city. I used to see those phonies get eaten alive when they'd come into the city pretending they're white "gangstas" or rastamen, or whatever. Talk about myopic! They don't have a clue.

Have you SEEN the media out there? If that isn't some crazy amount of exposure to other cultures, I don't know what is. Movies, music, commercials, magazines, books, tv shows, billboards...it all gives exposure to other cultures.

Yeah, mostly controlled and authored by white people. It's mostly whitey's vision of other cultures. But you're right. Things are getting better. Slowly.

Not only that, but I somehow doubt that many non-whites have a good grasp of what it's like to constantly have to make an effort to be "diverse", or not get a job because you're skin is too white (even if you're better qualified) and employers everywhere are afraid of being called racist, or to not get into college because a person with darker skin applied at the same time you did (even if you got a way better SAT/ACT score), or to have to watch your mouth every second of the day because minorities can and will sue you if you say the wrong thing....

Oh, believe me. They know very well what that feels like. It's YOU who is just now beginning to experience that kind of racial bias.

Whites are often treated unfairly and punished because they're the majority. A lot of non-whites would claim unfair treatment because they're the minority.
I still say your argument works both ways, kid.

Except that it's worked against them for 200 years. To you, it's a brand new and fairly limited experience.

I may be misunderstanding, but it seriously seems like you're arguing that it's ok to make jibing comments based on race because whites are completely ignorant, while minorities somehow know exactly what they're talking about?

In many cases, this is exactly how it is.

That makes absolutely no sense to me. Ignorance is present in all races, yes. But I've never seen it be as misbalanced as you're claiming...

That's why it's called being myopic (tunnel-vision). Your inability to see it proves it's legitimacy.

 

[kai]

Oh man this whole thread is so "white"

 

[Falvlun]

PureX, in a different discussion, I might agree with you. But as to the topic at hand, your stance is simply not tenable. It doesn't matter how well one race knows another race: there is simply no excuse for an insult to take the form of someone's skin color.

 

[Magic Man]

OK, maybe "obsessing" was too strong a word. But obviously this subject has tweeked someone's undies.

No, your ridiculous assertions are probably what has annoyed some people.

Not unless they say it specifically, which is a different discussion. Otherwise you're just jumping to your own biased conclusions about why they are saying "you're so white".

I realize that you'll most likely just ignore this as you have my last few posts. It's OK, I understand. I would probably do the same thing when confronted with an argument that clearly and definitively shoots mine down and I wanted to continue to assert that I was right. However, I'm going to keep saying it to make sure it's loud and clear to you.

Unless they specifically state that they mean it in a "myopic" sense, then it's reasonable to assume they're using it in the most common, usual sense that people use it. It seems that it's you who's letting your bias get in the way here.

But I don't think the intent has anything to do with you being reviled or disdained. I think it's an honest observation that white people in a white culture tend to be culturally myopic. It has nothing to do with dancing, or basketball. Those are biased stereotypes that YOU are injecting by assumption. When they call you "white", I think they are simply referring to that myopia - a kind of cultural ignorance born of being automatically part of a cultural majority.

Why do you refuse to see this? I just don't get it. This is worse than a creationist.

For one, even if it was an honest observation about white people being culturally myopic, it would still be stupid, since it would still be basing an assumption about a person solely on the color of their skin. Furthermore, it's not an honest observation about that. It has everything to do with dancing and basketball, etc. They are biased stereotypes that are the reason for the phrase in the first place. Regardless of the fact that you think they are referring to that myopia, they are simply not. I'm not sure how you're still arguing this. You're just plain wrong. That is not the way that phrase is generally used, especially not in the example in the OP. You need to give it up already. Look at the facts. Otherwise your willful ignorance will shine brighter than a creationist's.

 

[Magic Man]

stacy,

Generalities are as legitimate a way of viewing the world as individualities are. They're just two ways of viewing of the same reality. This particular discussion is about generalities, as it's about "whites" vs, "non-whites". And those are general terms that imply a cultural perspective. So I'm discussing them as generalities that imply a cultural perspective. That's what I took the thread to be about.

First, generalities are not necessarily wrong, but they're not as legitimate as individualities. Generalities can be helpful at times, but you still have to remember that they don't apply to everyone. If your view of the world only consists of generalities, then you're in sore shape, but if your view only consists of individualities, you're actually in pretty good shape.

Also, you're discussing the wrong generalities, and that's the problem.

I'm also discussing them without an assumption of bigotry because I see no value in discussing them as bigotry. Bigotry is wrong. What else is there to say about that?

Here's what else: That bigotry is always wrong, not just when it's directed at minorities. It's just as wrong when it's directed at the majority. That's what this thread is about.

So I chose to pursue what I thought was a more productive aspect of the subject. That was the aspect of speaking truth to power in a cultural sense.

Well, that's a completely irrelevant aspect of the subject. The subject here is why it's seen as acceptable for minorities to make fun of white people, but it's abhorrent for white people to do the same to minorities. That double standard is what we're supposed to be talking about.

 

[PureX]

PureX, in a different discussion, I might agree with you. But as to the topic at hand, your stance is simply not tenable. It doesn't matter how well one race knows another race: there is simply no excuse for an insult to take the form of someone's skin color.

Righteousness is often a fool's game. I believe it's both healthy and just to insult the status quo.

 

[PureX]

So sweeping generalizations and stereotypes are only bigotry when directed at a minority, but a "cultural reality" when directed at a majority?

Often, that's true. Yes.

 

[PureX]

The subject here is why it's seen as acceptable for minorities to make fun of white people, but it's abhorrent for white people to do the same to minorities. That double standard is what we're supposed to be talking about.

Actually, that's what I have been discussing all along, while you have been insisting on discussing the immorality of racism. I'm not interested in the immorality of racism. I'm interested in defending the right and value of insulting the status quo (in this case as represented by the cultural majority).

 

[ChristineES]

But why should someone be insulted just because he is in the cultural majority? Does being in the majority make someone less human? Does being in the cultural majority necessarily make someone myopic? Isn't generalizing just as bad done to the majority than to the minority?

 

[Magic Man]

Often, that's true. Yes.

Thanks. That's a very double standardy, bigotted way of looking at it.

Actually, that's what I have been discussing all along, while you have been insisting on discussing the immorality of racism. I'm not interested in the immorality of racism. I'm interested in defending the right and value of insulting the status quo (in this case as represented by the cultural majority).

No, you've been talking about a scenario that doesn't exist. You've been claiming that people use a phrase one way when it's clearly not the way they use it. You've been doing the equivalent of saying that "book" means "a four-legged animal that barks', and then claiming that anyone who sees a "book" as "a collection of pieces of paper with words written on them bound together" is obviously biased.

Most people wouldn't argue that challenging the status quo is a good thing. However, it depends on how you do it. The method you've been promoting isn't about challenging the status quo, it's about making racist comments. Any comment that assumes a person is a certain way simply because of their skin color is racist. If you really want to challenge the status quo, then you need to leave race out of it. In your examples, saying "You're so culturally myopic" would be challenging the status quo. Saying "You're so white" to mean that same thing is a racist way of challenging the status quo, and is therefore not fit to be used.

 

[Stellify]

They see how white people live, and they live in a predominantly white culture. White people, on the other hand, rarely see how other cultures live, and rarely live in other cultures. If you still can't see the difference, then I think you're working at remaining ignorant.

But what I'm saying is that they see how white people live, and white people see how they live, too! It's not like non-white communities have some sort of bubble around them and remain a mystery to everyone else!

I think this is one of the points where our arguments diverge so much. You think white people are out in la-la land and barely have any idea other cultures exist, whereas I know that to be very far from the case.

That's not working at remaining ignorant, that's being able to accept things I've seen on a regular basis across many different socioeconomic levels.

Nothing is 100%. This is a discussion of generalities, remember. Generally speaking, they do know white culture. Whereas whites do not know theirs.

They don't KNOW it, though. They haven't lived it. They may have lived AROUND it, but not lived the lifestyle themselves.

t's not complicated. Perhaps you're not trying to understand.

Excuse me for being such a non-bigot that it's hard for me to understand why you, or anyone, is so eager to condone it :sarcastic

Those words came from the fear he feels every day being a minority in a white majority culture. It's a fear you don't feel, and so don't understand.

Fear doesn't excuse his behavior. Period.

That would be like a white person excusing....oh, I don't know. White supremacist actions of violence against colored people because they were "afraid" that colored people might become equal in society. Like the fire hose thing? Or how about Emmett Till? Justifying his brutal death because the white woman he whistled at was "afraid" or insulted.

I'm sorry, but it's utter BS to excuse hateful actions just because someone is afraid.

His fear is real. And it's based on aspects of truth that you know little about. Truths like how much more likely it is that he will be arrested and convicted one day for a crime he didn't commit, simply because he's a black male. And he knows that no one but his mamma will believe him or care.

As I said in my previous post, fear doesn't excuse it. For anyone.

I understand that people are still bigoted towards people. But just because other's are bigoted towards him and/or his race doesn't excuse him to be bigoted and hateful to an entire race in return.
It's just as wrong, no matter who's doing it.

The term myopic has nothing to do with tolerating other cultures. It refers to a form of intellectual/cultural tunnel-vision. Like a horse wearing those flaps beside his eyes to keep him from seeing side to side.

I disagree. It does deal with tolerance.

my⋅op⋅ic   [mahy-op-ik, -oh-pik] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. Ophthalmology. pertaining to or having myopia; nearsighted.
2. unable or unwilling to act prudently; shortsighted.
3. lacking tolerance or understanding; narrow-minded.

They're a bunch of adolescent posers who know nothing of the cultures they mimic. I lived in Chicago for many years, in the inner city. I used to see those phonies get eaten alive when they'd come into the city pretending they're white "gangstas" or rastamen, or whatever. Talk about myopic! They don't have a clue.

Some do know of the cultures they mimic. Not all, certainly, but some. There are white people that grow up in neighborhoods and cultural areas where they're the minority.

Just as some are simply being idiots. But that goes for non-whites when they're mocking white culture, too.

Yeah, mostly controlled and authored by white people. It's mostly whitey's vision of other cultures. But you're right. Things are getting better. Slowly.

It doesn't change the fact that it's exposure to ideas from other cultures.
And I'm sorry, but have you heard some of the heartfelt rap music out there? Yeah, a lot of it that makes it to the radio is produced just to sell records, but there are a ton of artists out there who produce albums based on their culture and experiences within that culture. And a lot of white people listen to that music.

Oh, believe me. They know very well what that feels like. It's YOU who is just now beginning to experience that kind of racial bias.

No, they don't know what it's like.
They know what being the victim of racism is like, yes. But their experience is different than white people's in the specifics. Whites and non-whites are persecuted in very different ways in this matter.

Except that it's worked against them for 200 years. To you, it's a brand new and fairly limited experience.

I don't know about you, but I don't know of any non-whites who have had to deal with racism for 200 years. Nor any white person who has been a racist for 200 years. People don't tend to live that long

As Stacey said earlier, we (none of us) are our ancestors. It's time to stop using that as an excuse.

And just because it's a newer experience for whites in general, doesn't make it right.
It may make non-whites feel more justified in their racism and bigotry, but it doesn't make it right.

In many cases, this is exactly how it is.

From my own experience, and what I know of others', I couldn't disagree more.
I still say you can't call an entire race, who lives in a rather integrated society, completely ignorant. It's just not possible to maintain the kind of ignorance you're implying. At least not in any city I've ever heard of.

AND, even if white people did live in the vegetative-like state that kind of ignorance would require in order to be sustained, it STILL doesn't make racial jibes and insults right. It's STILL bigotry.

That's why it's called being myopic (tunnel-vision). Your inability to see it proves it's legitimacy.

Are you sure you're not the one who's unwilling to remove the blinders and see that people should be equal? And that experiences differ from individual to individual and culture to culture?

The fact that you absolutely refuse to see that bigotry is bigotry, no matter who is doing it, doesn't exactly make it seem like you're open-minded. Same with your blatant refusal to assign any kind of responsibility to minorities for their actions.

. I believe it's both healthy and just to insult the status quo.

Didn't you say in an earlier post that bigotry is wrong?

Why are you encouraging such a close-minded, hateful behavior pattern?

 

[Elessar]

Actually, that's what I have been discussing all along, while you have been insisting on discussing the immorality of racism. I'm not interested in the immorality of racism. I'm interested in defending the right and value of insulting the status quo (in this case as represented by the cultural majority).

And what is the cultural majority? This imaginary "white"? What gives you the idea there is a single "white" culture to be ridiculed?

I would argue that there is no "white" culture or "white" majority, and that this is a severely mistaken misperception from without.

 

[Stellify]

And what is the cultural majority? This imaginary "white"? What gives you the idea there is a single "white" culture to be ridiculed?

I would argue that there is no "white" culture or "white" majority, and that this is a severely mistaken misperception from without.

I would agree with that.
It was pointed out earlier that there are many different origins of "white". I think it's good to remember that each comes with it's own type of culture.

For instance, the French side of my family is very different from the Finnish side, and the Venezuelan side is very different from both of the others.



PureX:
A thought I didn't include in my previous post.

You argued that whites didn't know what it was like to be persecuted, but that non-whites had been persecuted for 200 years.

I would beg to differ. Immigrants coming to the United States have been persecuted since the beginning of the nation as we know it today (ie: since whites started coming here...not the native people it was taken away from). The irish were often absolutely reviled. As were other immigrants.

It's unfair to assume a majority doesn't know what it feels like to be the victim of prejudice simply because it's a majority. As has been pointed out, it's just a majority of skin color. Not culture, or shared experience, or similar backgrounds or lifestyles.

 

[methylatedghosts]

i dont think anything is sacred; everything is up for a laugh!

Interesting, because I feel EVERYTHING is sacred in it's own way, AND is up for a laugh

I will agree that one thing isn't necessarily MORE or LESS sacred than another, though.

 

[stacey bo bacey]

mball, stellify and elessar...your arguments are great. :clap

Blech, but I can't bring myself to discuss this with Purex right now. I don't respect him at all anymore and I am absolutely shocked at what's coming out of his mouth. I seriously, seriously hope this is not a common sentiment among minorities. I don't think they could ever be as close-minded as Purex. :no:

 

[Stellify]

mball, stellify and elessar...your arguments are great. :clap

Blech, but I can't bring myself to discuss this with Purex right now. I don't respect him at all anymore and I am absolutely shocked at what's coming out of his mouth. I seriously, seriously hope this is not a common sentiment among minorities. I don't think they could ever be as close-minded as Purex. :no:

 

[stacey bo bacey]

:hug: Thanks, deary.

 

[Stellify]

:hug: Thanks, deary.

Welcome, sugar

 

[PureX]

But why should someone be insulted just because he is in the cultural majority?

Because being in the cultural majority causes myopia. It causes people to become unable to recognize their own effect. And it often takes an insult to awaken them from this kind of cultural blindness. The truth is that these aren't really insults. They just feel that way to the status quo, who have stumbled through life imagining that they were so much more righteous than they are.

Does being in the majority make someone less human?

No.

Does being in the cultural majority necessarily make someone myopic?

Yes.

Isn't generalizing just as bad done to the majority than to the minority?

It's not "bad" to generalize.