Obama would make talking about guns a CRIME.

[Father Heathen]

Brilliant, the right to bear arms is a freedom.

Of course it is.

What about the freedom to go about life without fear of being shot?

Neither I nor anyone else I know lives with such fear. Who does? Maybe if you lived in an impoverished, gang-ridden, inner-city ghetto, but that hardly represents the U.S. in its entirety.

So we Brits are cowards???? Priceless.

That wasn't aimed at any particular nationality, but rather at anyone expressing all this silly, exaggerated knee-jerk hysteria surrounding the subject.

There is very few people in the UK who argue for the right to bear arms, no one is complaining about the loss of freedom; we look at the USA and think, "No thank you"

That's perfectly fine. If Brits are happy and content then awesome. I don't care about U.K. laws. I don't live there thus they don't apply to me. Likewise you don't live here thus our laws don't apply to you, which is why I don't understand the strong emotional investment from people who aren't even American citizens. Also, these outside points of view that are limited by bias, lack of knowledge, and inexperience are rather presumptuous and aren't really going to be of much interest to anyone who actually lives here.

The following is copied and pasted from an old post of mine on another thread regarding same subject. I think it's relevant to this discussion:

"I guess it bears repeating; I grew up in quiet, friendly communities where practically every house-hold owned firearms, yet violent crime, especially gun related crime, was non-existent. I've had friends and family who've owned guns, yet none who fit the slur "gun-nut", which has been tossed at anyone who happens to support the second amendment. Everyone had always been responsible and low-key regarding the guns they've owned, occasionally taking them out to go hunting or target practice. Yet their mere ownership of guns somehow contributes to violent crime ... Should people who own kitchen cutlery be shamed for crimes that have involved stabbings? ... See how silly that sounds? But that might sound totally reasonable to a culture where kitchen cutlery is a foreign thing and their own exposure to knives is exclusively through gruesome stories of slashings and stabbings in a faraway land."

 

[Father Heathen]

They just love their guns, they always have, and they wonder why their in that situation.

Violence is psychological and sociological. It's not magically caused by the mere presence of inanimate objects. I've heard that stabbings were pretty bad in the U.K. When are British citizens going to trade their kitchen cutlery in for plastic sporks?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Flawed regulatory laws, or failure to enforce regulatory laws is indeed an issue. Of course things aren't perfect, and of course some areas need to be improved upon, but to simply give up rights and freedoms isn't a fix, because you're selling out more than just access to and ownership of firearms for private citizens.

In the same way many need to be denied the privilege to drive, many people do indeed need to loose their right to own a gun. If you have killed someone outside of self defense, you should never be allowed to own a gun again. But, in America, it is possible for some of them to legally acquire a gun later. That should not happen, ever. We need to be much more strict about who can own a gun, because it is far too easy for people who shouldn't have them to legally get one.
Irresponsible owners shouldn't be allowed to own them either. Everyone in a household of a gun needs to undergo safety training, and leaving one unattended around a small child should be considered being irresponsible enough to not be allowed to one again. There are just far too many accidents to justify allowing people to own them without ensuring they have been trained to use one and know how to use them, much in how we require drivers to be tested to get a license. I do believe both should involve regular and frequent retesting. It's a fact of life that motor skills can and do deteriote, and sometimes allowing people to continue having the privileges (privileges, because in the context of reality all we have are priveleges) previously held puts others at risk. Some people, from the start, just shouldn't be allowed to ever use either one.
This would people who are non-violent, who have been trained, and who are mentally stable will still be able to have their guns. Several countries have tight regulations, but they still have a gun presence but not the gun violence.
As a step in the right direction, America desperately needs to make harder to get a gun. Even semi-strict enforcement laws make it difficult for minors to acquire tobacco and alcohol.
There are many steps that need to be taken, and one of those steps does include telling people they cannot own a gun.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Violence is psychological and sociological. It's not magically caused by the mere presence of inanimate objects. I've heard that stabbings were pretty bad in the U.K. When are British citizens going to trade their kitchen cutlery in for plastic sporks?

Knives are not guns. Guns are easier to use, they make killing easier, they make defending oneself harder, they can easily do far more damage, and ultimately a stab can be deflected assuming certain conditions, however, bullets cannot be dodged or deflected once set in motion.

 

[Altfish]

... but rather at anyone expressing all this silly, exaggerated knee-jerk hysteria surrounding the subject.

Pots and kettles come to mind

 

[psychoslice]

Knives are not guns. Guns are easier to use, they make killing easier, they make defending oneself harder, they can easily do far more damage, and ultimately a stab can be deflected assuming certain conditions, however, bullets cannot be dodged or deflected once set in motion.

Your certainly right.

 

[psychoslice]

Violence is psychological and sociological. It's not magically caused by the mere presence of inanimate objects. I've heard that stabbings were pretty bad in the U.K. When are British citizens going to trade their kitchen cutlery in for plastic sporks?

Maybe we need all glasses to be replaced with plastic, with all the face glass smashing going on.

 

[Father Heathen]

In the same way many need to be denied the privilege to drive, many people do indeed need to loose their right to own a gun. If you have killed someone outside of self defense, you should never be allowed to own a gun again. But, in America, it is possible for some of them to legally acquire a gun later. That should not happen, ever. We need to be much more strict about who can own a gun, because it is far too easy for people who shouldn't have them to legally get one.
Irresponsible owners shouldn't be allowed to own them either. Everyone in a household of a gun needs to undergo safety training, and leaving one unattended around a small child should be considered being irresponsible enough to not be allowed to one again. There are just far too many accidents to justify allowing people to own them without ensuring they have been trained to use one and know how to use them, much in how we require drivers to be tested to get a license. I do believe both should involve regular and frequent retesting. It's a fact of life that motor skills can and do deteriote, and sometimes allowing people to continue having the privileges (privileges, because in the context of reality all we have are priveleges) previously held puts others at risk. Some people, from the start, just shouldn't be allowed to ever use either one.
This would people who are non-violent, who have been trained, and who are mentally stable will still be able to have their guns. Several countries have tight regulations, but they still have a gun presence but not the gun violence.
As a step in the right direction, America desperately needs to make harder to get a gun. Even semi-strict enforcement laws make it difficult for minors to acquire tobacco and alcohol.
There are many steps that need to be taken, and one of those steps does include telling people they cannot own a gun.

Agreed, for the most part.

 

[Father Heathen]

Maybe we need all glasses to be replaced with plastic, with all the face glass smashing going on.

Eh?

 

[Father Heathen]

Pots and kettles come to mind

If I'm being hypocritical, please explain how.
Also, it's disappointing that that's the only part of my post you cared to respond to.

 

[Father Heathen]

Knives are not guns. Guns are easier to use, they make killing easier, they make defending oneself harder, they can easily do far more damage, and ultimately a stab can be deflected assuming certain conditions, however, bullets cannot be dodged or deflected once set in motion.

Be that as it may, it still hasn't stopped the apparent wave of stabbings in the U.K.

 

[Altfish]

If I'm being hypocritical, please explain how.
Also, it's disappointing that that's the only part of my post you cared to respond to.

Do you not think that you have a "....silly, exaggerated knee-jerk hysteria surrounding the subject" to other peoples' minds?

A partial reply may well be disappointing but if you would care to talk to my boss...

 

[Father Heathen]

Do you not think that you have a "....silly, exaggerated knee-jerk hysteria surrounding the subject" to other peoples' minds?

Nope. Everything I've presented has been well reasoned and substantiated. I've reread my posts in this thread and I'm not seeing what you're misconstruing as an emotional, knee-jerk reaction.

A partial reply may well be disappointing but if you would care to talk to my boss...

They said you were a tax break hire and to pay you no mind.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Be that as it may, it still hasn't stopped the apparent wave of stabbings in the U.K.

True, but knives are not guns. It's like trying to compare a baseball bat to a gun. It's still an effective weapon, but at least you stand more of a chance than just hoping the shooter isn't shooting to kill or not a good shot.
Since 1968 more people, in America, have been killed by guns than the number of soldiers killed in all major American conflicts. The study didn't include minor conflicts, but the margin is 200,000 so those can be included as well.
Of course more people will start getting stabbed, but guns are not knives.

 

[Altfish]

Nope. Everything I've presented has been well reasoned and substantiated. I've reread my posts in this thread and I'm not seeing what you're misconstruing as an emotional, knee-jerk reaction.
.

So are my statistics, but you dismiss them as "...silly, exaggerated knee-jerk hysteria surrounding the subject".
How you can say that about a death rate through guns 40 times that of the UK? That is a FACT, a fact that is hard to argue with.
Sorry, I'm getting hysterical again.

 

[Father Heathen]

So are my statistics, but you dismiss them as "...silly, exaggerated knee-jerk hysteria surrounding the subject".
How you can say that about a death rate through guns 40 times that of the UK? That is a FACT, a fact that is hard to argue with.
Sorry, I'm getting hysterical again.

I wasn't denying or dismissing the data, but rather what you were trying to use it as a justification for.

 

[esmith]

Regulations on certain ammo as opposed to all ammo are completely reasonable.

One person's idea of a reasonable action is another persons idea of an unreasonable action.

 

[Marisa]

One person's idea of a reasonable action is another persons idea of an unreasonable action.

Well sure. But it would be kinda silly to claim that a 2nd amendment violation has occurred by removing access to one type of bullet.

 

[esmith]

Well sure. But it would be kinda silly to claim that a 2nd amendment violation has occurred by removing access to one type of bullet.

There is an old saying about allowing the camel's nose under the tent.

 

[Marisa]

There is an old saying about allowing the camel's nose under the tent.

I've never heard that. I've heard the insult about the fleas of 1,000 camels infesting your armpit, though.