whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
What changed that made it right then and wrong for Trump? What was so significantly different/
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Obama and the Clintons supported a wall... so what changed
- Thread starter whirlingmerc
- Start date
The 2013 and 2006 bill included
-fencing, not a much more expensive (both short and long term) concrete wall
-Less than half the length of Trump's wall
-protections for immigrants, including a path to citizenship once the 700 miles of fencing were completed.
-much larger emphasis on non-physical aspects of border security
Trump's proposal includes
-striking down any democrat negotiation including the offered $1.3 billion dollar wall budget, demanding between 5.7 to a whopping 18 billion or nothing (which even at a low estimate is way higher than the Secure Fences act of 3.5 billion).
-tearing down fencing taxpayers have already paid for to put up wasteful wall communities don't want.
-manufactured 'crisis' politics abusing emergency power to bypass negotiations.
-fencing, not a much more expensive (both short and long term) concrete wall
-Less than half the length of Trump's wall
-protections for immigrants, including a path to citizenship once the 700 miles of fencing were completed.
-much larger emphasis on non-physical aspects of border security
Trump's proposal includes
-striking down any democrat negotiation including the offered $1.3 billion dollar wall budget, demanding between 5.7 to a whopping 18 billion or nothing (which even at a low estimate is way higher than the Secure Fences act of 3.5 billion).
-tearing down fencing taxpayers have already paid for to put up wasteful wall communities don't want.
-manufactured 'crisis' politics abusing emergency power to bypass negotiations.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Nothing has really changed.
The Democrats just like making half baked token gestures just as long as it makes them look good like they're actually doing something about a problem, all the while making sure it's not too expensive because they need the spare pork barrel money for their pet special interest groups and self-serving projects.
The Democrats just like making half baked token gestures just as long as it makes them look good like they're actually doing something about a problem, all the while making sure it's not too expensive because they need the spare pork barrel money for their pet special interest groups and self-serving projects.
Augustus
…
Republicans used to support the law enforcement and national security establishments, yet now many see the FBI and CIA as enemies of the state.
People don't care about facts or logical consistency, they care about emotions and being a good coalition member. This means revising your opinion to support whatever your team supports.
You further demonstrate you are a good coalition member by ostentatious displays of virtue signalling where you call out the other side for doing exactly what you are doing and claiming that this makes them evil/stupid/mendacious.
Partisan politics is not about the facts, it's just about identity and belonging to a group.
Just about everything.
For starters, neither of the three attempted to build a vanity circus out of border issues by trying (and failing) to strongarm Congress with a threat of shutdown.
I don't think that even Bill came anywhere close to lying so often and so shamelessly as Trump, regarding the "wall" or anything else, either.
One part of that lying that is really irritating is how little the right wing cares about the Trump-originated lies. The guy does not even keep any semblance of coherence on whether the wall is necessary or not, whether it is just about completed or is still in the planning stages, and so on.
Another aggravant is Trump's reliance on three-years-older's levels of intellectual honesty and sophistication. It is bad enough that he lies so often and so seriously, but when he keeps trying to push fantasyland claims that the brunt of immigrant-related problems is a consequence of insufficiently guarded borders, the fault is actually on his supporters, who ought to point out that the facts show otherwise.
Generally speaking, Trump rarely even tries to present coherent claims, let alone truthful ones. That this complex and serious matter of border control is reduced to over-simplistic terms of "building a wall", disregarding among other significant facts that of the existence of quite a lot of border walls already, shows how little interest in adult discussion the whole matter involves.
Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
That would be Trump's wall.
I'm not about to support Democrat 'walls'. But the simple fact here is that Trump made ridiculous promises in relation to the 'wall'...specifically calling out that it was a wall, not a fence, and that Mexico would pay.
So, fine. If he's supposed to be able to talk out of his arse without repercussion, more power to him. Otherwise, it's a bit rich to get pissy when people suggest hes been talking out of his arse.
If it were Hillary's wall, I'd expect Democrats to enthusiastically support it.
Republicans would call it wasteful pork barrel spending.
And when government shut down, it would be the Republicans' fault.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The Democrats supported border security and building the wall. What changed was Trump ran for president and won. The wall was a very affective rally cry for Trump. The Democrats put their own needs for power, before the needs of the American people, and changed their tune on the wall, in an attempt to undermine Trump's strongest rally cry.
The Democrats know the mainstream media is their propaganda wing, so they know their wall flip flop and hypocrisy will not get much coverage or analysis. CNN will never report this and with FOX News considered evil by their base, their base will never take FOX reported truth to heart.
The Democrats have used the main stream media, at 93% negative, to undermine Trump in any way they can. Unfortunately, the Democrats have underestimated Trump's endurance, and he is still standing with a 50% popularity rating. This made the wall fight even more pressing; last stand for Democrats; 2020.
What is also happening is, after two years of fake negative news, is a lawsuit has been filed against fake news Washington Post. They ran stories defaming the teens from Covington High School. This suit addresses the fake news behavior designed to injure innocent people. This lawsuit tells me that the tide is about to turn on fake news, with all type of law suits, pending, on the results of this first legal case. New rules may appear from the Supreme Court that that define journalism versus fake news, with freedom of the press, not applying to fake news. Fake news all be made vulnerable to libel and slander suits.
The problem Trump had with the Obama holdovers from the FBI, Justice Department and the CIA is connected to the dual standards that were being imposed at the upper levels of these organizations. These were an attempt to take out an elected president, and shelter Hilary and Obama from their crimes. The directors of the FBI and CIA, as well as other high level staff, were canned, due to these crimes. How do you trust crooks in positions of power if justice is not being served?
One set of crimes exonerated Hillary and got Obama off the hook for lying to the FBI. How do you trust law enforcement agencies when its leadership is using a two tier injustice system? This is about to come to a head, with the tide turning on Democrat corruption.
Attorney General Barr has told Mueller to finish up and give his report. The liberal defamation scam is over. The next step will be a new special council to look at the corruption in the Obama FBI and Justice Departments, which gave law enforcement a bad name. Heads will role and the DNC may lose many of its corrupt older leaders, who may decide to retire,rather than face charges.
The Democrats know the mainstream media is their propaganda wing, so they know their wall flip flop and hypocrisy will not get much coverage or analysis. CNN will never report this and with FOX News considered evil by their base, their base will never take FOX reported truth to heart.
The Democrats have used the main stream media, at 93% negative, to undermine Trump in any way they can. Unfortunately, the Democrats have underestimated Trump's endurance, and he is still standing with a 50% popularity rating. This made the wall fight even more pressing; last stand for Democrats; 2020.
What is also happening is, after two years of fake negative news, is a lawsuit has been filed against fake news Washington Post. They ran stories defaming the teens from Covington High School. This suit addresses the fake news behavior designed to injure innocent people. This lawsuit tells me that the tide is about to turn on fake news, with all type of law suits, pending, on the results of this first legal case. New rules may appear from the Supreme Court that that define journalism versus fake news, with freedom of the press, not applying to fake news. Fake news all be made vulnerable to libel and slander suits.
The problem Trump had with the Obama holdovers from the FBI, Justice Department and the CIA is connected to the dual standards that were being imposed at the upper levels of these organizations. These were an attempt to take out an elected president, and shelter Hilary and Obama from their crimes. The directors of the FBI and CIA, as well as other high level staff, were canned, due to these crimes. How do you trust crooks in positions of power if justice is not being served?
One set of crimes exonerated Hillary and got Obama off the hook for lying to the FBI. How do you trust law enforcement agencies when its leadership is using a two tier injustice system? This is about to come to a head, with the tide turning on Democrat corruption.
Attorney General Barr has told Mueller to finish up and give his report. The liberal defamation scam is over. The next step will be a new special council to look at the corruption in the Obama FBI and Justice Departments, which gave law enforcement a bad name. Heads will role and the DNC may lose many of its corrupt older leaders, who may decide to retire,rather than face charges.
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Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Can we stop the strawman nonsense that opposing Trump's ridiculous and pointless wall is in any way related to opposing "border security" please?
Your video doesn't support your claim either that either the Democrats called for a wall or that anything has changed other than that Trump began calling for a wall that Mexico would pay for. Neither Bill, Hillary, or Obama called for a wall in that video - only Trump.
But since then, Trump has treated the Democrats quite shabbily as he has the media and the intelligence community, all of which unsurprisingly are pushing back. The Democrats have an excellent opportunity to show Trump's constituency that he is a loud-mouthed blowhard making threats and promises that he cannot keep. If the Democrats remain resolute in their unwillingness to appropriate even a nickel for anything called a wall, then can represent the best interests of the American piggy bank, give their liberal constituency what it wants, and demonstrate to the world and to Trump's base what a poor negotiator Trump actually is, a great embarrassment for him.
But suppose that the Democrats had reversed their position on a wall as is being claimed here, and suppose that it was as much political as pragmatic. There seems to be an implication that that is inappropriate. The Democrats should do what is politically expedient for liberal interests in America. If that means once having advocated for a wall, but now finding that it is preferable to oppose that idea, then that's what they should do however much Trump and his supporters disagree. Why not?
I've never thought a wall was a good idea, and I'm no partisan so I never cared what those two warmongers wanted.
But recently I've become pro-wall, ever since Trump announced an idea to fund the wall through the military budget.
I mean, sure, I still think it's a huge waste of money, but if your proposal is that we waste money building a wall instead of wasting money murdering people, well that gets my attention as a anti-war non-partisan. It's a far more moral waste of money.
Build the wall.
And make the military-industrial complex pay for it!! I'm 100% on board with this idea. Let's do it!!
But recently I've become pro-wall, ever since Trump announced an idea to fund the wall through the military budget.
I mean, sure, I still think it's a huge waste of money, but if your proposal is that we waste money building a wall instead of wasting money murdering people, well that gets my attention as a anti-war non-partisan. It's a far more moral waste of money.
Build the wall.
And make the military-industrial complex pay for it!! I'm 100% on board with this idea. Let's do it!!
Shad
Veteran Member
This was not an offer but the existing budget policy from 2018 which was a two year budget plan. Read the 2018 omnibus bill.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
"I don't think that even Bill came anywhere close to lying so often and so shamelessly as Trump, regarding the "wall" or anything else, either."
interesting claim, many would disagree
claims of "a bimbo eruption" comes to mind and it seemed to go downhill from there with documents that could not be located but later turn up for a late Friday afternoon quiet disclosure, etc etc,,, and thank you for not trying to clam Obama was always truthful
On the shamelessly measure, I think Bill wins.
He stresses quality over quantity.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
And so would many.
All the same, it is incredible that they would. Trump seems to be set on entering the Pinocchio achievements contest of the Guinness Book.
Bill was no exemplar of virtue, but even so... there is really no dispute there.
For the record, I disagree with @Revoltingest as well.
Honestly, that would be cowardly of me.
You are, after all, trying to defend Trump.
Of course.