Nonbelievers to Hell!

[Meow Mix]

If that were the case, I would be SOL!

Intellectual honesty means admitting you could be wrong. To that end, I admit that I could be wrong about everything my faith tells me. Faith is faith, after all.

Why are you answering everyone else's questions but not the questions I had about why unbelievers are Hellbound?

Did I come off as that aggressive and mean?

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

And the whipping event at the Temple did not happen?

Seems like an intense moment to me.

i guess he's pretty lax about the cheek turning too. man, jesus is turning out to be the best babysitter ever.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

Why are you answering everyone else's questions but not the questions I had about why unbelievers are Hellbound?

Did I come off as that aggressive and mean?

i am being thoroughly ignored as well (no matter what thread it is), and it's becoming very frustrating.

mr. midnight "no aggression" pete has decided he doesn't mind arguing after all, just not with us. =(

 

[Meow Mix]

i am being thoroughly ignored as well (no matter what thread it is), and it's becoming very frustrating.

mr. midnight "no aggression" pete has decided he doesn't mind arguing after all, just not with us. =(

It's a free country, at least he's interacting with the boards more.

Maybe he'll see that we don't bite before the end.

 

[Starsoul]

What better way to win converts than to scare them into it?

To your earlier posts and this one, you've got it all wrong when you say that God is going to punish somebody who was thrown in the woods and grew up a tarzan..Although all civilizations have shown to be born and brought up with some sense of the creator, the punish is for those only who grew up DENYING God while knowing the reality. And Please, God is the most reasonable deity you or anyone can ever relate to. You doubt the hell concept because you havent chosen to accept to read or know about His kindness.

If you want to know about the concepts of islam, you must read the book from the very beginning, the concept of hell is not drawn in it untill the very end, and that too for warning the knowledgeable infidels who KNEW the truth but simply denied it because it did not suit their lifestyles and they were not ready to stop the ill practices that they were into. Most of them agreed within themselves that they knew it was the real Messenger of God and the book was the final testament from God, but believing in Him would take away the few worldly privileges they thought they'd never loose by denying Him, but alas they lost all the privileges of this world and the next one too.

One can just go on and on about it, but its not really of any use when the other side has opinions based on Islam and Allah while looking through the fence that is created by their own sense of inhibition.

How can one explain to somebody that when they think of the Sun, and the bigger suns of the universe or the space collisions, one cannot even imagine having the eye sight to witness the colossally intense forms of energy and the collisions that happen in space, its just not possible to view the sun at a closer distance with naked eye or even go near it,and yet its quite strange that they have a hard time thinking that while its so difficult watching these huge forms of energies, How can it be easy viewing somebody who is the King of all these things?

And despite all those things, He is the closest to us in so many ways so that we can actually get to know Him through His abilities and qualities and it is just that recognition that is going to lead one into heaven, in which no-one will die or age and all our desires will come true in a way that we wont even have to struggle for them, its only this world which asks for struggle.

If you had read the Quran you would have known what happened to those who wanted to see God, and they said in return we'll start believing in Him. This short event has been shared because God knew that people would insist on seeing Him but even after that, they refused to believe. I don't doubt for a second that people of today are any better.

That is the paramount of belief, it has just got nothing to do with eyes. He did not even show a small tiny flash of lesser fraction than one millionth of a second to those people, and all the mountains and the people turned to burnt dust .

(they all got resurrected again to be asked if they saw, and even then only some of them admitted to believe and the rest came up with the same old lame excuses all athiests, infidels, polytheists and satanists always come up with, quite interesting to note that all their asinine excuses have been foretold by God.)..

And that wasn't even the whole image, just a minute flash, can't even explain its time or size or occurrence because God knows better, but he did share that information in the book.

But, yes its going to be one of the privileges of the people of the heaven, only they would be able to see God when they are in heaven. Its not like Muslims, christians and other God believing people don't WANT to see Him, they do too, but that requires a bit of patience and some testing of a person's belief whether he really wants to or not and whether he obeys his natural instinct of finding the One True God.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

It's a free country, at least he's interacting with the boards more.

Maybe he'll see that we don't bite before the end.

[technically, this is a multi-national board, there has to be some law in some country that forces you to answer potentially argumentative forum posts] =)
so you're saying we can't bite him? ugh.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

But, yes its going to be one of the privileges of the people of the heaven, only they would be able to see God when they are in heaven. Its not like Muslims, christians and other God believing people don't WANT to see Him, they do too, but that requires a bit of patience and some testing of a person's belief whether he really wants to or not and whether he obeys his natural instinct of finding the One True God.

so god said in a book he wrote about himself that if you saw him you would turn to dust... and THAT's why i'm not allowed to have any verifiable evidence that he exists before entertaining the idea of his existence?

and the only people who are allowed to have ANY verifiable evidence at all are people who have already resigned themselves to believing in him (and died believing/serving)?

makes perfect sense...

could you, please, go into the "lame excuses" that the "infidels" came up with?

 

[Meow Mix]

To your earlier posts and this one, you've got it all wrong when you say that God is going to punish somebody who was thrown in the woods and grew up a tarzan..Although all civilizations have shown to be born and brought up with some sense of the creator, the punish is for those only who grew up DENYING God while knowing the reality. And Please, God is the most reasonable deity you or anyone can ever relate to. You doubt the hell concept because you havent chosen to accept to read or know about His kindness.

Even infinite kindness doesn't make up for torturing someone infinitely or knowingly allowing them to be tortured infinitely. That's just insane to say that anyone deserves infinite misery, let alone that the one inflicting the torture or allowing it to be inflicted could be "just," "good," or "merciful" in any respect.

(they all got resurrected again to be asked if they saw, and even then only some of them admitted to believe and the rest came up with the same old lame excuses all athiests, infidels, polytheists and satanists always come up with, quite interesting to note that all their asinine excuses have been foretold by God.)..

Many holy books say the equivalent that "There will be unbelievers, but you're actually smarter than them by having faith" in one form or another. From the Bible it says God will destroy the wisdom of the wise, yada yada: it's a clever "trap" built right into the mythologies that convinces believers that they've already won any possible debate because any amount of intellectual opposition amounts to something faith is better than, or that God will destroy, etc.

I'm not impressed by such tricks.

As I said, I'm an atheist because there is no justification to believe theism is true. No matter what you think about how we're really "secretly believers who are rebelling," that's nonsense. Is it really that hard to believe that people just might be skeptical about your god because it doesn't make sense to them; because they have no evidence to believe it? If someone told you they had a dragon in their garage, would you believe them outright or would you wait before believing for a little bit of support/evidence?

Ask yourself why you'd be skeptical of someone who says "There are leprechauns in my garden" and you'll understand why atheists are skeptical of your god. Then ask yourself how silly it would be if, once you told them you were skeptical, they said "Ah, I can see that you actually do believe there's leprechauns in my garden, you're just afraid to admit it to yourself because you don't want to change your lifestyle" or something like that. See how absurd that is?

 

[Starsoul]

>>yourhopeboundheart>>

so god said in a book he wrote about himself that if you saw him you would turn to dust... and THAT's why i'm not allowed to have any verifiable evidence that he exists before entertaining the idea of his existence?

you are saying that you'd rather have the verification of a scientific proof which will make more sense to you when some long haired half mad scientist would say 'Hey I think there's god! and You'd be like 'oh yeah maybe!cuz a guy ,who's gone half crazy burying his nose in some Man made books all his life, has developed a sense that makes him a highly capable intellectual ,says so!'

The whole world lies infront of your eyes as a proof of creation, If you had the vision, you've got more proof than a deaf blind person..Not to say that I have yet to meet a physically disabled person who does Not believe in God, rather, they have a striking acknowledgment of God no matter what religion they belong to, everybody has a sense of their Creator in them, why them when they cant even see?

But, I'd say probably Not those who've willingly chosen their ancestors as monkeys, might have a problem regarding limited intellectual capacity there, but not the rest.

and the only people who are allowed to have ANY verifiable evidence at all are people who have already resigned themselves to believing in him (and died believing/serving)?

You really sound like you have no idea what religion is or what is being discussed here, it would help if you improved your knowledge about several religions so that your senses have a chance to evolve.(oops, I didn't say anything! Its athiests who believe in the theory of evolution!)



[youtube]p7a7ywCJ65Y[/youtube]
YouTube - Why He Convert in Islam -Amazing Story Part 1

[youtube]c0Wl0W1ou1g[/youtube]
YouTube - Why He Convert in Islam -Amazing Story Part 2 ( Last)

could you, please, go into the "lame excuses" that the "infidels" came up with?

YouTube - If Atheists Ruled the World

A good idea would be to read the book's translation Yourself, they are too many to list.

I don't expect the least Interest from anyone here, but then as long as someone denies God, he will have to keep on facing this.

 

[Starsoul]

The links that I shared are just a small peek into what some Athiests come to as a conclusion, don't understand why they do... Don't seem like the people who believe in mindless tricks ..

 

[Meow Mix]

>>yourhopeboundheart>>

you are saying that you'd rather have the verification of a scientific proof which will make more sense to you when some long haired half mad scientist would say 'Hey I think there's god! and You'd be like 'oh yeah maybe!cuz a guy ,who's gone half crazy burying his nose in some Man made books all his life, has developed a sense that makes him a highly capable intellectual ,says so!'

You're arguing against your own case, considering holy texts were written by men; and we're expected to believe people gods exist because they say so, or some book written by men says so.

The whole world lies infront of your eyes as a proof of creation, If you had the vision, you've got more proof than a deaf blind person..Not to say that I have yet to meet a physically disabled person who does Not believe in God, rather, they have a striking acknowledgment of God no matter what religion they belong to, everybody has a sense of their Creator in them, why them when they cant even see?

There are disabled people who don't believe in gods. Just like every other group of people, many of them do believe in gods while some of them don't. That's exactly what we find in EVERY population of people: most do, some don't.

Most people believe in luck, some people don't. Do you believe in luck? There is as much "evidence" for luck as there is for your god: people swearing by testimony that they experienced a "miracle" of luck, books written about methods to get better luck, etc. etc.

When you realize why you don't believe in luck you will realize why atheists don't believe in your god: because there is no evidence.

(Unless you do believe in luck, in which case we'd have to find another analogy...)

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

you are being very sassy...

>>yourhopeboundheart>>

you are saying that you'd rather have the verification of a scientific proof which will make more sense to you when some long haired half mad scientist would say 'Hey I think there's god! and You'd be like 'oh yeah maybe!cuz a guy ,who's gone half crazy burying his nose in some Man made books all his life, has developed a sense that makes him a highly capable intellectual ,says so!'

i didnt ask that someone else get verifiable evidence, i asked that everyone got verifiable evidence. it's easier to believe long hair'd folks when i can check the data myself, it's harder when they are telling me i have to believe what's behind the curtain without looking (oh, and i want a percentage of your paycheck). it's always very funny when faith-based believers try to make the scientific method of skeptical inquiry into something just as farcical as their own arrival at what they believe.

The whole world lies infront of your eyes as a proof of creation,

actually, the whole world lies in front of my eyes as a proof that "creation" isn't the right word for it.

But, I'd say probably Not those who've willingly chosen their ancestors as monkeys, might have a problem regarding limited intellectual capacity there, but not the rest.

once again you show that you're lacking in your grasp of what science does. we dont decide that we are the descendants of former species, we accept that we are based on the evidence produced. the second that that evidence is refuted through empirical scientific study we wont have to decide to change our minds, we'll just accept it. nobody decided that the reason for the salem witch trials (aside from bigoted religious influence) was ergot poisoning, we simply accept it as more reasonable than demon possession.

You really sound like you have no idea what religion is or what is being discussed here, it would help if you improved your knowledge about several religions so that your senses have a chance to evolve.

honestly, if that's how i come across, i'm really glad. if there's one thing i would love to be ignorant about, or at least though ignorant, it's religion.
but, i'll do my homework if you do yours.

 

[Starsoul]

Even infinite kindness doesn't make up for torturing someone infinitely or knowingly allowing them to be tortured infinitely. That's just insane to say that anyone deserves infinite misery, let alone that the one inflicting the torture or allowing it to be inflicted could be "just," "good," or "merciful" in any respect.

No-one deserves to be tortured, or go through infinite misery, to even relate misery as an infliction from God is the most childish thing one can agree with.

For those who think that the Prophets had a flashy, luxurious life, just go through an independent biography of the Messengers of God , you'd be surprised how most of them lived in extremely low life circumstances, some did not have parents, people ridiculed them, they got stones thrown at them and pestered in every way beyond imagination. Why ,then did they not choose to disbelieve?

They could easily say, 'Lord I'm your best man, give me all the comfort that I deserve, ' but no, they never asked because they were told by God that, 'All men of God are tested and his best men will be tested the most.' And there was huge relief after every test , and his men were thankful to Him instead of walking away proud, pompous, and complaining. All people of this world have fairly better lives than the Messengers of Allah, cant be thankful enough for that..

When we buy a cloth, even we have expectations for it to run atleast for the price that it cost and the usual run time, why do we think that God would not test our capabilities as a creation? It's only to increase our ranks in Heaven. If there was a free huge mansion and plenty of beautiful women/men and 24 hr help around, being gifted to someone for a life time, we all would really be ready to do 'Anything' for that, but when God promises all this for the little miseries which We should KNOW ,never last for long, we just abandon the whole idea and of heaven to something even more depressing.

I agree we all go through very exhaustive experiences physically,mentally or emotionally in our lives but you have no right to think that Muslims lead a very comfortable and misery-free life, Whats happening in the Muslim world must give you an idea that they are being killed left right and centre ,their women being raped and children being blown up, should make us say' Oh, God is not helping us, 'He' is killing us so He does not exist!'

Nobody among the Muslims says that, why? because they know that no matter how trying the conditions would be for them in this world, the reward will be so huge that a man who went through the most miseries in life will THANK God that he was miserable in this world, for the huge rewards he'd receive in the afterlife.( mansions, women ,family everything he could not even dream of possessing in this world, would be all his and this is just a limited list, the rewards of heaven are huge!).Not only that, He'll forget all his pain at even the slightest glimpse of Heaven.

And when he will be asked 'How long did you stay in the world being miserable, he'd be like, ' just a day or a part of it maybe?" That is the true reality and time frame of our existence as compared to the afterlife, and we, owing to our lack of knowledge feel that we have lived an eternity here and nothing good would come out of it, well why not?

I'd want every reward for the slightest discomfort that i have endured, nobody can re-pay me in a way that I can forget the pain, Only God. So instead of directing my pain into aggression over disbelieve, I direct it towards patience in belief, honestly believing that there are people in this world living in worst conditions that I am, and that really is the truth, and the fact that all this will be over soon and all the misery will be gone.

I'm not impressed by such tricks.

You don't have to be, Its just a choice anyway, nobody's forcing you. I know Heaven is an idea so un-perceive-ably, beautifully, massively refreshing and prosperous that we want to continue feeling miserable in our existence rather than grasp the idea and get a grip on our life.

All miseries have made people stronger, its only those who deny themselves a chance to heaven who don't see the loving arms of God when they return from this world to the real one..Although a few definitions exist throughout the divine books, stealing a glimpse of heaven or hell before the test is complete, would be cheating really . It is just fair to keep the idea in a vivid imagination because there's different things different people want in heaven and there's no limit to how good they want it to be, an accurate description would just limit it's magnificence.

 

[Meow Mix]

No-one deserves to be tortured, or go through infinite misery, to even relate misery as an infliction from God is the most childish thing one can agree with.

For those who thing that the Prophets had a flashy, luxurious life, just go through an independent biography of the Messengers of God , you'd be surprised how most of them lived in extremely low life circumstances, some did not have parents, people ridiculed them, they got stones thrown at them and pestered in every way beyond imagination. Why ,then did they not choose to disbelieve?

The main reason not to believe in gods isn't because there's suffering in the world, it's because there's no evidence that gods or a god exists.

That being said, the problem of evil isn't solved just by getting a reward for suffering. The problem of evil is that suffering isn't necessary in the first place.

Consider that someone has a baby who is going to die shortly after birth. Should they therefore do their best to slap and dropkick the baby to ensure that it suffers before entering heaven?

If you say yes, then I question your sanity.

If you say no, then why do you suppose suffering is necessary for any of us at all? After all, it's "a day, maybe part of one" for any of us, right? There's no need for suffering to exist if there exists a being powerful and knowledgeable enough to prevent its existence.

Even so, as I've said, that is not the main reason to be an atheist. That's just a question atheists ask to point out an absurdity in many theistic beliefs. The main reason to be an atheist is that there's no reason to suppose any gods exist. No evidence, no justification, nothing that I or many an atheist have ever seen that even remotely makes theism appear to be a rational, justified belief.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Even so, as I've said, that is not the main reason to be an atheist. That's just a question atheists ask to point out an absurdity in many theistic beliefs. The main reason to be an atheist is that there's no reason to suppose any gods exist. No evidence, no justification, nothing that I or many an atheist have ever seen that even remotely makes theism appear to be a rational, justified belief.

In addition, another primary reason to be an atheist is that there exist perfectly rational psychological and sociological explanations for why people do develop and maintain religious beliefs. These types of beliefs are adequately explained by simpler explanations than the existence of unseen, supernatural entities.

 

[Zadok]

The main reason not to believe in gods isn't because there's suffering in the world, it's because there's no evidence that gods or a god exists.

That being said, the problem of evil isn't solved just by getting a reward for suffering. The problem of evil is that suffering isn't necessary in the first place.

...

First – The absents of evidence is not evidence of absents.

Second – Suffering does exist – the question is – will justice prevail; ever? or is the inevitable result of life the injustice of suffering?

Zadok

 

[Kilgore Trout]

First – The absents of evidence is not evidence of absents.

Actually, absence of evidence certainly can be evidence of absence.

There exists no evidence of people who can fly by merely flapping their arms. This absence of evidence is actually pretty strong evidence that no such people exist.

 

[Meow Mix]

First – The absents of evidence is not evidence of absents.

Second – Suffering does exist – the question is – will justice prevail; ever? or is the inevitable result of life the injustice of suffering?

Zadok

Absence of evidence can be evidence of absence when the proposed properties or qualities of the thing in question should be perceivable or easily accessed.

"There is a gorilla in this room."

Notice the premise has the quality of being in this room. Since I don't see or otherwise a detect a gorilla in this room, the absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Likewise, a god with certain properties like "omniscience, omnipotence, benevolence" are incongruent with the existence of suffering in the world; therefore absence of evidence is certainly a good case of evidence for absence.

Theodicy is a branch of theology that focuses on falsifying this evidence for absence. Of course, it's failed so far.

As for whether ultimate justice exists, must it? Saying "X exists, because if X did not exist it would be undesirable" is the fallacy of an argument from adverse consequences. Reality isn't always what we want it to be. That's why we must do our best to minimize injustice and suffering to the maximum of our ability because we're the only ones that we know can do it: sitting around praying for results doesn't seem very efficacious.

 

[Starsoul]

An excerpt from the well known French Biologist,

"Louis Pasteur (1822-1895) after long carried researches refuted the foundation of the theory that bases evolution as the origin of life forms and Humans.'Can matter organize itself? No! Today there is no circumstance known under which one could affirm that microscopic beings have come into the world without parents resembling themselves.'

Louis Pasteur, Fox& Dose, Origin of Life, P-4,5).

The Case Against Darwin.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21776

 

[Starsoul]

WHERE ARE ALL THE HALF EVLOLVED DINOSAURS?


BY: BABU G. RANGANATHAM



June 7, RUSSIA (PRAVDA) — Millions of people are taught that the fossil record furnishes proof of evolution. But, where are there fossils of half-evolved dinosaurs or other creatures?

​

The fossil record contains fossils of only complete and fully-formed species. There are no fossils of partially-evolved species to indicate that a gradual process of evolution ever occurred. Even among evolutionists there are diametrically different interpretations and reconstructions of the fossils used to support human evolution from a supposed ape-like ancestry.


Even if evolution takes millions and millions of years, we should still be able to see some stages of its process. But, we simply don't observe any partially-evolved fish, frogs, lizards, birds, dogs, cats among us. Every species of plant and animal is complete and fully-formed.


Another problem is how could partially-evolved plant and animal species survive over millions of years when their basic organs and tissues were still in the process of evolving?

How, for example, were animals breathing, eating, and reproducing if there respiratory, digestive, and reproductive organs were still evolving?


In fact, precisely because of this problem more and more modern evolutionists are adopting a new theory known as Punctuated Equilibrium which says that plant and animal species evolved suddenly from one kind to another and that is why we don't see evidence of partially-evolved species in the fossil record. Of course, we have to accept their word on blind faith because there is no way to prove or disprove what they are saying. These evolutionists claim that something like massive bombardment of radiation resulted in mega mutations in species which produced "instantaneous" changes from one life form to another. The nature and issue of mutations will be discussed later and the reader will see why such an argument is not viable.


The fact that animal and plant species are found fully formed and complete in the fossil record is powerful evidence (although not proof) for creation because it is evidence that they came into existence as fully formed and complete which is possible only by creation.


Evolutionists claim that the genetic and biological similarities between species is evidence of common ancestry. However, that is only one interpretation of the evidence. Another possibility is that the comparative similarities are due to a common Designer who designed similar functions for similar purposes in all the various forms of life. Neither position can be scientifically proved.


Although Darwin was partially correct by showing that natural selection occurs in nature, the problem is that natural selection itself is not a creative force. Natural selection can only work with those biological variations that are possible.



The evidence from genetics supports only the possibility for horizontal evolution (i.e. varieties of dogs, cats, horses, cows, etc.) but not vertical evolution (i.e. from fish to human). Unless Nature has the ability to perform genetic engineering vertical evolution will not be possible.
The early grooves in the human embryo that appear to look like gills are really the early stages in the formation of the face, throat, and neck regions. The so-called "tailbone" is the early formation of the coccyx and spinal column which, because of the rate of growth being faster than the rest of the body during this stage, appears to look like a tail. The coccyx has already been proven to be useful in providing support for the pelvic muscles.


CONTD----