Noah's flood story, did it happen?

[Fallen Prophet]

False. That is a non sequitur.

Explain.

Why does Man need to be Redeemed if they are not Fallen?

No. That is your belief coming to the surface here.

Yes - my belief that is founded on the scriptures.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You should review the words allegory and metaphor. That might help you understand.

I'm not the one who is confused.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not the one who is confused.

Not so.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I'm not the one who is confused.

Are you sure?

 

[Jose Fly]

For example - if someone has not done their due diligence in studying the Word of God - prayer may not do them much good - because they do not have an idea to Whom they are praying.

Like you said - it's like talking to the wall.

Also - if that person is not taking the opportunity to apply what they studied into their life - like being chaste for example - then prayer might not help them much either.

Dude, I was immersed in Christianity from the time I was literally one week old. I went to church activities at least three days a week for 15 years. So please don't assume that I just didn't know enough about the Bible or Christianity for prayer to "work".

Also, what kind of system is this where a person has to fully believe in it, study it, and understand it before something like prayer works? Does that mean all those stories of unsaved people living awful lives, but receiving sudden revelations about Christ are wrong? After all, they obviously hadn't studied the Bible or lived properly etc.

Seems entirely psychological to me.

This - to me - is an example of people who didn't take the opportunity to study the Word of God.

Besides particular ordinances being performed by holders of the Priesthood - God encourages us to pray to Him ourselves.

The idea that people would ask their pastor to pray on their behalf is like asking someone else to go to college in your stead. It does you no good. You learn nothing.

And also the idea that people think of prayer as nothing more than wish making - that is sad.

Funny how you Christians can't agree on even the most basic things about your faith. You'd think if this was all a revelation from a god, it'd at least be clear on important details like this.

Again, your reply can be seen as very insulting.

Well - you're not wrong. Many answers I have gotten through prayer have been along those lines.

God is not in the business of just giving us everything we need. If that were the case - then there would be no need for us to be here in mortality.

He almost always requires us to prove ourselves before He blesses us.

The times I believe I receive the most revelation is not when I'm praying - but when I'm either studying the scriptures or after I have been actively pondering on an idea for a time.

I believe that God wants us to use all that we have first. Exercise our minds, hearts and spirits - before He opens the gates of revelation.

Prayer can motivate us. Comfort us. Point us in the right direction - but He wants us to work out our salvation.

It is important - but there are some times when simply saying, "I don't know" is acceptable.

Like me and this case of Noah, the Ark and the Flood.

Well there ya' go....apparently God's message to me was to stop praying, forget the Bible, stop wasting time in church, and when I encounter problems I need to figure things out myself.

I believe that the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ was revealed to Adam and Eve some time after their expulsion from the Garden.

This is why they and their children performed animal sacrifice - to be obedient to God's command to remember the Sacrifice of the Son of God.

This leads me to believe that this idea was passed down throughout all the generations of the Earth - yet not all of Adam's descendants were faithful - therefore many apostasies and false interpretations were had.

So - it is my belief - that the Christian concept of Sacrifice and the Atonement are the culmination of God's promises made to Adam and Eve - our first parents.

Okay, thanks for answering.

Oh ok - this is where I diverge from other Christians I guess.

I believe that the Law has existed as long has God has - they are both co-eternal - and that God is perfect because He operates according to the Law.

I believe that He is God because of His adherence to eternal Law - and His sustaining and honoring the Law.

Basically - He did not make the Law up - it is the Law and He is a perfect Being because He does not violate it.

If any of us wish to become more like Him - we would need to keep the Law - however - since none of us are perfect - we are going to violate the Law along the way.

This condemns us - however - if the punishments for violating the Law were placed upon a willing Being - one who never once violated the Law - then the Law's demand for justice could be appeased.

The Lord Jesus Christ did not suffer and die for Man because God demanded it - but because the Law demanded that all the punishments were issued for the violations.

Sorry, that still seems circular and nonsensical to me. But if it works for you, by all means....

I don't think that's so weird.

If my son were guilty of a crime - even unto death - and there was a way for me to be sacrificed in his stead - I may do it.

Of course - that is not the same case as with the Lord Jesus Christ and us - but it is all my feeble mortal brain can contemplate right now.

Guess we'll just disagree on that.

These types of questions always lead me to ask one in return,

"If you were made all-powerful - would you do what you want to do or what you don't want to do?"

God adheres to the Law perfectly - not because someone has a gun to His head - but because that is His nature. That is what He wants to do.

And why? I believe it is because following the Law is the only means by which eternal life and joy are given and accomplished.

God can only forgive sin according to the Law - because that is who He is - He is a perfectly Lawful Being.

Again, that still seems nonsensical to me.

I don't understand.

I mean - would it not be reasonable to assume that if two baseball players had the same coaches, same training regimen, same experiences, same work ethic, same workouts, same desires - that they would have similar outcomes when playing the game?

I understand that genetics may play a huge factor - but barring that?

Again you're trying to analogize to something that's physical and objectively measurable, which is entirely unlike prayer.

And my experience tells me that if someone is not getting answers - then they are doing something wrong.

Why can't you just say "I don't know"?

No offense intended - but there will always be someone better than you at something - and if your first instinct is to be offended - doesn't that prove that you were not being humble?

LOL....or it proves that it's a result of self-delusion. And again, I have to point out that you're assuming all sorts of things about my experiences, even though I only told you very little about them.

It could very well be that the reason you're so quick to make so many unwarranted and baseless assumptions is that you're avoiding an uncomfortable conclusion and the consequences it might lead to. As you described, your faith is a big part of who you are today and how you turned your life around. So the conclusion that maybe it's all just made up and imaginary carries a lot of psychological risks for you, which is why you immediately made so many assumptions about me and my experiences.

You had to find an excuse for why things didn't "work" for me, because the alternative (your revelations and such were imaginary) is simply unacceptable.

As one of my old internet friends used to say....humans have an almost infinite capacity for self-delusion. Why would you be any different?

And if them saying that was enough to knock you off your game - were you being sincere in your seeking?

If Peter were to come and tell me that I'm doing something wrong - which I know I am all the time - then I wouldn't be a humble person if I got offended by that and I wouldn't be a sincere seeker of truth if that made me give up.

Please understand that I did not mean to say any of this as a judgment - because I know where you are coming from and how much you probably don't want to hear it.

Oh I've heard this sort of thing from Christians before. They, just like you, also invoke the "you didn't do it right" excuse as a means to protect their own faith from an unacceptable possible alternative.

Of course - not everyone lives in the same house.

At your place - every light switch may work - but my place might have a few that don't - it all depends on how well we take care of our homes and our affairs.

If you are a person who does not take care of your home and doesn't always pay your electric bill - then you may have find yourself flipping dead switches.

If you take the time to study God's Word - learn who He is - and try to live by His commands - then your home will be better taken care of - and you can be more confident flipping those switches.

But it does require a certain specific amount of resources, planning and preparedness.

What if you flip a light switch that you haven't connected to any wires yet? What if the power company turned off your power because you weren't paying?

There are things that you need to do to ensure that the lights come on when you flip the switch.

If you don't do those things - you're never gonna get any light.

None of us are entitled to revelation - just like none of us are entitled to electricity.

If you want the light - either physically or spiritually - there are things you need to do.

Again, you're trying to analogize between objective, observable, measurable things (the existence of wires and connections, paid/unpaid status of a bill) and something that's 100% subjective.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Explain.

Why does Man need to be Redeemed if they are not Fallen?

Yes - my belief that is founded on the scriptures.

I never said that we have not fallen. You read things in there that are not in anything I wrote. Apparently, for you, it must be the literal story or nothing.

Mine if founded on faith in the existence of God.

 

[Jose Fly]

I suppose that depends on what you are asking about/for.

I'm going to share a personal experience - there once was a time in my life when I was much more...adamant... about certain things than I am now.

I mean - I was praying all the time and I was really "jonesing" for those spiritual experiences - and I had some - but I wanted more.

I really wanted to be the next Apostle Paul or something.

During this time - my wife's grandfather died - and we went to the hospital to visit with family and to see him.

While we were there his daughters - all of which were nurses - were upset and wailing and demanding to see his chart. They couldn't believe it and wanted someone to blame.

I knew the guy well - super funny - and we all remarked on how he did not look dead. He retained color and he still felt warm to the touch.

When it came to be my turn to approach his bed and pay my respects - I was praying to God in my heart - nothing specific - but I wanted that connection there because of the solemnity of the scene.

When I touched this dead man's hand - I believe I had a revelation - and it consisted of a scene playing in my head.

In this scene I raised my right hand and I commanded this man to rise up - and he did - and his family began shouting joyously and I was initially very happy.

Then however - the family eventually turned to me - and they looked at me with awe and praise - and then the doctor and nurses entered and started asking questions.

This made me feel very uncomfortable - because I did not like how they were all looking at me and I didn't have the answers to their questions.

This scene played in my head for the span of a heartbeat - and then I was back in the room looking at this dead man - and I felt that if I did in real life what I had seen in my head - it would happen.

I stood there just staring at the face of this dead man I had known - teetering - weighing my options - and feeling this subtle pressure in my mind signifying that now was the time to make a decision.

Finally - after maybe thirty seconds - that feeling passed - I felt the window of opportunity close - and I was ashamed.

That was when I heard a voice in my head - and I recognized it but it was not my own voice - and it told me that I was not prepared to receive all the things I had been praying for.

I was not prepared to be the next Apostle Paul - because I was not willing to sufficiently change my life - not willing to accept all the responsibilities associated with those blessings and that authority.

Soon after I heard this voice one of my wife's aunt's remarked that their father no longer retained any color and that he finally felt cold.

I related the entire experience to my wife after we left - and I apologized to her for my unwillingness to bring her grandfather back - she believed me and told me that it just wasn't meant to be.

This experience has always stayed with me - telling me that it is more important to ask Him what we should pray for.

Because - even though I was praying all the time - I didn't actually want to be the next Apostle Paul - and I assume that God did not want that for me either.

This is why it is important to seek His will - through either prayer or His Word - and a desire to do it.

Sorry for the lengthy story.

Do you really think you could have resurrected that man? Do you often hear voices in your head? If so, do they usually tell you to do, or not to do things?

Of course I am - we are all Fallen. We are all spiritually weak and underdeveloped.

I'm sorry to say - but that's your pride talking.

Not from my POV. I see it as being because I tend to value objectivity, have good critical thinking skills, and am not prone to self-delusion.

Correct.

Don't ask me to find it - I mean I could - but I don't wanna - but there are verses in both the Old and New Testament that shed some light on this.

First - that our spirits came from God, second - that God knew us before we came to this world, third - that God chooses where everyone goes, fourth - that we can only receive as much of the truth as we are able.

There is truth in every religion. Some have more than others - but they all have truth.

All of the practicing Muslims I have personally met - without exception - have been wonderful, kind and patient people.

I know that their religion has a lot to do with that.

However - I remember having a conversation with a Muslim friend of mine about the Holy Spirit - and he said that in his religion that anyone who claimed to have received a witness from any spirit - holy or otherwise - would have been considered a crazy person.

They do not believe in having conversations with God or receiving witness through the Holy Spirit.

So - I believe that God knows them and He put them where they are - and which religion they follow - because that was all the truth that they themselves were willing to receive.

That may change in time - but they have what they need now.

So - yes - had I been born in a Muslim part of the world - I may never have gotten the opportunity to pray about anything and ask God for answers - and I would most likely be a Muslim.

Do you believe the Muslims that God put in Muslim cultures will be rewarded in the afterlife?

Sure - but we kill each other over pretty much anything - possibly even curry.

I also don't see what the fuss is all about - but some people just like being in conflict and killing.

That's true.

Well - "all" except what was on the Ark - right?

And He even told Noah to take "all" the food - didn't He?

I think we are lacking context.

I believe that God was referring to previous conversations that He had with Noah.

That the "all" was a reference to the things that they had discussed.

Kinda like, "You remember those people I was talking about? Yeah - all of them."

"You remember those food stuffs I told you to prepare? Bring all of that."

That's just my way of seeing it.

What's that based on? I don't recall any depictions of these previous conversations in the Bible.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Dude, I was immersed in Christianity from the time I was literally one week old. I went to church activities at least three days a week for 15 years. So please don't assume that I just didn't know enough about the Bible or Christianity for prayer to "work".

Also, what kind of system is this where a person has to fully believe in it, study it, and understand it before something like prayer works? Does that mean all those stories of unsaved people living awful lives, but receiving sudden revelations about Christ are wrong? After all, they obviously hadn't studied the Bible or lived properly etc.

Seems entirely psychological to me.


Funny how you Christians can't agree on even the most basic things about your faith. You'd think if this was all a revelation from a god, it'd at least be clear on important details like this.

Again, your reply can be seen as very insulting.


Well there ya' go....apparently God's message to me was to stop praying, forget the Bible, stop wasting time in church, and when I encounter problems I need to figure things out myself.


Okay, thanks for answering.


Sorry, that still seems circular and nonsensical to me. But if it works for you, by all means....


Guess we'll just disagree on that.


Again, that still seems nonsensical to me.


Again you're trying to analogize to something that's physical and objectively measurable, which is entirely unlike prayer.


Why can't you just say "I don't know"?


LOL....or it proves that it's a result of self-delusion. And again, I have to point out that you're assuming all sorts of things about my experiences, even though I only told you very little about them.

It could very well be that the reason you're so quick to make so many unwarranted and baseless assumptions is that you're avoiding an uncomfortable conclusion and the consequences it might lead to. As you described, your faith is a big part of who you are today and how you turned your life around. So the conclusion that maybe it's all just made up and imaginary carries a lot of psychological risks for you, which is why you immediately made so many assumptions about me and my experiences.

You had to find an excuse for why things didn't "work" for me, because the alternative (your revelations and such were imaginary) is simply unacceptable.

As one of my old internet friends used to say....humans have an almost infinite capacity for self-delusion. Why would you be any different?


Oh I've heard this sort of thing from Christians before. They, just like you, also invoke the "you didn't do it right" excuse as a means to protect their own faith from an unacceptable possible alternative.


Again, you're trying to analogize between objective, observable, measurable things (the existence of wires and connections, paid/unpaid status of a bill) and something that's 100% subjective.

It is an irony that I often learn more about my own believing from those that do not believe at all than from those that shout all over the place how great they believe.

 

[Jose Fly]

It is an irony that I often learn more about my own believing from those that do not believe at all than from those that shout all over the place how great they believe.

That's similar to why I read, watch, and listen to right-wing media, even though I'm not a conservative. I already know what I, and people like me, think, so I'm not likely to learn much from them. I want to know what the other side thinks.

The older I get, the more I appreciate how rare and valuable intellectual curiosity is.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Dude, I was immersed in Christianity from the time I was literally one week old. I went to church activities at least three days a week for 15 years. So please don't assume that I just didn't know enough about the Bible or Christianity for prayer to "work".

Wow - I didn't assume this or anything else about you.

I was lamenting how frustrating it was to try and talk about only prayer in a vacuum - because that is impossible.

In order to properly discuss prayer - I would need to discuss other things - such as studying the Word of God and applying it to our lives.

I claimed that "someone" (not necessarily you) would need to do these things as well as pray in order to receive revelation - and I shared this because that is what I have come to believe from my study of the scriptures and my personal experience.

I don't understand why you took it as a personal attack.

While we are on that subject though - and don't take this the wrong way - but your "immersive" childhood doesn't mean you actually came out understanding anything.

Basically - there is a reason that children were not Prophets or Apostles.

I took years of piano lessons and Spanish classes in my youth - but I can't play piano or have a conversation in Spanish today.

If anyone who could do those things were to share with me their experiences and how they came to be proficient at the piano and in speaking Spanish - it would be foolish of me to interpret that as some sort of attack on me personally just because I had failed to continue practicing those things.

I never stopped studying the Word of God and applying what I learned to my life - so there is no reason for you to be upset with me when I place value in that experience and share it.

This reaction of yours does not bode well for the remainder of your post.

Also, what kind of system is this where a person has to fully believe in it, study it, and understand it before something like prayer works?

A system that requires a certain level of faith and understanding before receiving revelation.

Does that mean all those stories of unsaved people living awful lives, but receiving sudden revelations about Christ are wrong?

After all, they obviously hadn't studied the Bible or lived properly etc.

Seems entirely psychological to me.

I don't subscribe to the "saved" system of belief.

My understanding of the scriptures is that the Lord Jesus Christ came to save us from both sin and death - so if you are an individual who still commits sin and is still subject to death (literally everyone on the planet) - then you are not "saved".

Now - as to the witness of the Holy Spirit - which can occur through prayer or other means - that does not necessarily require any preparation on our part - other than the desire to be better I suppose.

So far in our discussion we have been talking about receiving answers (revelation) to specific questions - which definitely require study and application.

Even though the Holy Spirit is involved in both of these things - I do not believe them to be the same.

So - I do not believe that anyone is "saved" - and the bar for the Holy Spirit to witness to an individual is rather low - and happens more often than you'd think.

Funny how you Christians can't agree on even the most basic things about your faith.

"You" Christians and "your" faith - eh? You're becoming rather divisive.

Anyways - I can't think of any group of people who agree on everything - not even scientists with all their "facts".

People love getting in their own way - be they secular or religious - and if no one is willing to do the work and find these things out for themselves - then they are always going to stumble.

You'd think if this was all a revelation from a god, it'd at least be clear on important details like this.

He was - several times.

The most "cut and dry" example is from the Lord Jesus Christ in His Sermon on the Mount when He told His disciples to not pray like the hypocrites in the streets to be seen of men - but to do it in secret (Matthew 6:6).

My study of the scriptures has taught me that God wants us to pray to Him personally - and the fact that the church you went to didn't get that memo speaks volumes.

If they are unwilling to study the teachings of the Savior - then they aren't going to know or understand the teachings of the Savior - it's that simple.

Your fifteen year "immersion" may have been in the shallow end of the pool.

Again, your reply can be seen as very insulting.

It's 2021 - everything is offensive.

Except - of course - to humble and sincere people. Those people are pillars.

Well there ya' go....apparently God's message to me was to stop praying, forget the Bible, stop wasting time in church, and when I encounter problems I need to figure things out myself.

I cannot receive revelation for you.

However - considering your claims about the church you attended - I doubt you were at all prepared to receive any revelation about the need for prayer, the Bible or church attendance.

You not receiving revelation on these things does not mean that they are not important or true.

I'm glad you learned the lesson of being independent and figuring things out for yourself though.

That is a good thing - but I believe it needs to be tethered by seeking God's guidance.

He isn't going to give you all the answers or solve all of your problems - but if you are doing your very best (which does not involve having a pastor pray on your behalf) - then you can receive more guidance from Him.

Sorry, that still seems circular and nonsensical to me. But if it works for you, by all means....

Well - would it help if I shared that I believe that all things are eternal - including you and I?

I believe that we have always existed - in some form - and that we will always exist in some form.

We are just as eternal as God and the Law.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Guess we'll just disagree on that.

You'd never consider sacrificing yourself for a loved one?

Again, that still seems nonsensical to me.

How so?

Are you saying that you would do things against your own nature if you became all-powerful?

Again you're trying to analogize to something that's physical and objectively measurable, which is entirely unlike prayer.

But things like training are completely subjective.

Just like with the two baseball players - both would need to be applying reasonably similar amounts of effort and time to gain similar results.

Have you spent the bulk of your life studying the Word of God? Fasting? Praying?

If you put in less effort and time than I do - don't be upset if we get different results - and don't assume that with enough effort and time on your part that you cannot receive similar results.

How could you make that determination without ever expending the effort and committing the time?

It has been my experience - with family and friends - that those who asked the "big questions" aren't doing it to find answers - but are looking for excuses to give up.

I believe that the answers to the big questions are out there - but they take effort and time to receive - and you can't get them if you are having your pastor pray for you in lieu of doing it yourself.

I don't think there were any fifteen year old Prophets or Apostles - so expecting the big answers so early was unreasonable in my opinion.

Why can't you just say "I don't know"?

You can. I have done that with this topic. I have said so many times.

However - I got that "I don't know" as an answer to my prayers.

I received testimony of various things - that Noah was a real person, that there was an Ark, that there was an event that caused massive loss of life.

However - as to whether it was one global event - or a series of regional events - or just one local event - I got a wall - a non-answer - which is an answer.

It wasn't a "nothing" - there was an answer - it was just void of information. It is not easy to explain.

He is not revealing that knowledge to anyone anytime soon for reasons that I don't understand.

And I'm fine with that.

However - it's important to start seeking revelation on smaller things - rather than on the validity of Genesis stories.

LOL....or it proves that it's a result of self-delusion. And again, I have to point out that you're assuming all sorts of things about my experiences, even though I only told you very little about them.

I don't think I assumed anything. You were offended by what they told you - you said as much.

And that is not the reaction of a truly humble person. They tend to be patient, long-suffering and slow to anger.

And - in all honesty - I've never met a humble fifteen year old and I doubt I ever will.

It could very well be that the reason you're so quick to make so many unwarranted and baseless assumptions is that you're avoiding an uncomfortable conclusion and the consequences it might lead to. As you described, your faith is a big part of who you are today and how you turned your life around. So the conclusion that maybe it's all just made up and imaginary carries a lot of psychological risks for you, which is why you immediately made so many assumptions about me and my experiences.

I struggle with pride all the time.

And because of that I know that you taking things personal and then attacking me in this way is a sign of pride.

I'm in no position to judge you or tell you how to live your life - but I can say that you are derailing this conversation.

And if that is your intent - then let's just stop.

I thought this was one of the good ones - but I don't want to waste my time if that is not the case.

You had to find an excuse for why things didn't "work" for me, because the alternative (your revelations and such were imaginary) is simply unacceptable.

Your personal experiences have as much of an effect on my beliefs as mine have on yours.

You not receiving revelation is no skin off my nose.

However - I was willing to answer your questions and relate my experiences.

If you are unwilling to put in the necessary effort and time - why should that matter to me?

You not showing up to practice isn't going to stop me nor will it affect my ability to hit a home-run.

As one of my old internet friends used to say....humans have an almost infinite capacity for self-delusion. Why would you be any different?

I cannot confirm or deny any of this to you.

I am merely answering your questions and relating my experiences.

And - just so we are clear - that same question can be applied to you.

It has been my experience that people look for reasons to stop trying.

Oh I've heard this sort of thing from Christians before. They, just like you, also invoke the "you didn't do it right" excuse as a means to protect their own faith from an unacceptable possible alternative.

No - I'm trying to explain what humility and sincerity are.

Those are two traits that most teenagers do not have.

And I was unaware that my faith was under attack - so why do you assume I'm defending it?

Again, you're trying to analogize between objective, observable, measurable things (the existence of wires and connections, paid/unpaid status of a bill) and something that's 100% subjective.

Once you receive the testimony from the Holy Spirit and start receiving revelation - it doesn't matter what other people say.

I cannot pray on your behalf. I cannot receive revelation for you. I cannot force the Holy Spirit to visit your mind and heart.

You would need to prepare for those things and seek them yourself.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Do you really think you could have resurrected that man?

No - that would not have been a Resurrection.

The Resurrection will be a permanent thing - when our physical bodies will be perfected and we will never be separated from them again.

A person returning to mortal life - which is a phenomenon often recorded in the scriptures - can happen if the person performing the blessing has the authority from God and is acting according to God's will.

I honestly believe I could have - but I see the experience more as an object lesson for me. God was taking the opportunity to teach me.

Do you often hear voices in your head? If so, do they usually tell you to do, or not to do things?

Aw - so I'm a crazy person now?

So much for, "If you experienced something meaningful, who am I to try and take that away? I say, go forth and be at peace."

You are trying to take it away - so I'm not going to indulge you anymore.

This is very disappointing.

Not from my POV. I see it as being because I tend to value objectivity, have good critical thinking skills, and am not prone to self-delusion.

Of course - because you believe that religious people do not posses critical thinking skills. They need college to teach them that - right?

To save them from their deluded and ignorant selves?

No - if you convince yourself that you are superior to others - that is your pride talking.

I believe that we are all in the same boat. Adrift. Looking for answers from the same POV of ignorance.

Do you believe the Muslims that God put in Muslim cultures will be rewarded in the afterlife?

I don't understand the question.

I believe that Islam has gotten many things wrong and some things right.

What's that based on? I don't recall any depictions of these previous conversations in the Bible.

Did God destroy "all" life or not?

What sense would it make for Him to claim that He was going to kill everything while simultaneously commanding Noah to build an Ark in order to save something?

So obviously God's use of the word "all" did not literally mean "all" - since He went out of His way to spare some.

That is why I believe His use of the word "all" needs to be viewed from the proper context.

I cannot confirm or deny that I have applied the proper context - but it makes sense to me.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I never said that we have not fallen. You read things in there that are not in anything I wrote. Apparently, for you, it must be the literal story or nothing.

Mine if founded on faith in the existence of God.

How could Man have Fallen without choice?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Are you sure?

Yes - you believe they are allegories - I believe that they are mostly literal events.

I am not confused.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes - you believe they are allegories - I believe that they are mostly literal events.

I am not confused.

Are you sure? There is no evidence they were literal events. Seeing them as literal events is a belief.

Feel free to read anything into my words that you see fit. Whether it is there or not.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

How could Man have Fallen without choice?

I don't know. I never said that.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Explain.

Why does Man need to be Redeemed if they are not Fallen?

Yes - my belief that is founded on the scriptures.

I forgot the explanation. Your conclusion doesn't follow the premises.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is why I believe His use of the word "all" needs to be viewed from the proper context.

Oh the irony!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes - you believe they are allegories - I believe that they are mostly literal events.

I am not confused.

Since we know that they did not happen it appears that you are very confused.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Are you sure? There is no evidence they were literal events. Seeing them as literal events is a belief.

There is no evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ even existed - let alone that He died for my sins and rose from the dead.

Believing in things without evidence is kind of part and parcel to being a Christian.

Feel free to read anything into my words that you see fit. Whether it is there or not.

When have I ever done this?