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Featured Noah's flood story, did it happen?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by SA Huguenot, May 21, 2021.

  1. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    False. That is a non sequitur.
    No. That is your belief coming to the surface here.
     
  2. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    You saw his fallacy too.
     
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  3. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    You should review the words allegory and metaphor. That might help you understand.
     
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  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Fundamentalists tend to make the unjustified assumption that Adam is necessary for sin to exist. There may even be a "logical" tie between that and their likewise false belief of "Once saved always saved".
     
  5. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I see Adam as representing mankind. As such, his reality is not required.

    I think they believe the are targeting didactic, but hit pedantic every time.
     
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  6. NewGuyOnTheBlock

    NewGuyOnTheBlock Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate

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    I have started a thread; and started it with a list of all the reasons why Noah's flood story did not and could not happen.
     
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  7. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Otherwise? Mankind is a victim and God has committed a heinous crime.

    Well, let's see. Do you believe your god is eternal? Of course, you do. Does the bible say he came to earth for about 30 years? Of course, it does. See, I do know.

    You apparently are having a hard time understanding the concept of eternal. Man can live to around 100 years. One hundred years is far less than .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of eternity. He gave up his freedom for comparatively less time than I lose my sight for one blink of my eyes. That's no big deal. For the blink of an eye, he gave up his omnipotence and omniscience. No big deal. He has known for eternity that he would give up his omnipotence and omniscience for an eyeblink.

    I have known from an early age that I would lose my sight for 100 milliseconds every so often. No big deal.

    Nonsense. He is one third of the tripart godhead. You are saying 1/3 submitted to the will of another 1/3. Big deal.


    I see something. I blink. For 100 milliseconds I suffer blindness. Then I see things again. This happens to me 1000 times a day, every day of my life. Your Jesus only gave something up for one eyeblink. Big Deal.

    Being part of an omnipotent tripart godhead, he/they could have done a lot of things. They could have wiped out mankind - again.

    Maybe your omnipotent tripart godhead should have done a better job planning it all out ahead of time. Oh, wait. It didn't need planning, it had omniscience. And yet, its creation still doesn't work very well.

    It must be hard for an omnipotent, omniscient entity to look in a mirror and say oops - again.
     
  8. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    To an omniscient entity there is no such thing as "possibility". There is only knowledge.
    omniscient

    om·ni·scient | \ äm-ˈni-shənt \
    Definition of omniscient

    1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
    2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge the omniscient God

    See the part about "complete knowledge"?

    Your omniscient, omnipotent god designed Adam & Eve and built them exactly as he wanted to.

    What I am saying is not ignorant. It is based on knowledge of the bible (The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost) and knowledge of the beliefs of believers (God is eternal, omniscient, and omnipotent. If any of that is wrong, please correct me.

    If you find the facts offensive, well, they are your beliefs after all.
     
  9. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    My beliefs too. But I find your posts interesting, informative and thought provoking. I have never found them threatening or offensive. Perhaps it is a matter of a difference in security in beliefs and a recognition of what faith is.
     
  10. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    It means the gospel claims are incorrect.
     
  11. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    I see. This demonstrates that modern science has ruled out a world wide flood on the basis of several different factors.

    Some people follow bad sources but they still believe in some science backing their choices.

    No, it's way more jumbled than that, the Biblical record doesn't seem to know what exactly happened:


    Of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark. Genesis 6:19

    Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. Genesis 7:8-9

    Every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. Genesis 7:14-15

    Of every clean beast thou shalt take thee by sevens, the male and his female. Genesis 7:2

    It does but first it sounds pissed - "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;"
    That is pissed. Had you read that from any other character you would say pissed. This is common in the OT.


    The flood lasted 40 days.
    And the flood was forty days upon the earth. Genesis 7:17
    The flood lasted 150 days.
    And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days. Genesis 7:24
    And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the one hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. Genesis 8:3


    On the first day of the first month.
    In the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth. Genesis 8:13
    On the 27th day of the second month.
    And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. Genesis 8:14
     
  12. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    This is what happens when several different people write and/or amend parts of a story.

    This does not happen if the author (God) is commanding what should be written.

    I'm sure the Koran has no such contradictions since Allah communicated directly with Mohammed.





    Did I really need to indicate that the last sentence was sarcasm?
     
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  13. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Don't bother. I find apologetics to be silly.
     
  14. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure you do.
    Because as has been the case in this thread, creationists almost always only refer to Carbon dating. As if that is the only method used.
    Most of your kind do, but good for you.
    Then it is wrong.
    Don't think so, I've only seen mention of C14 in this thread. But I could have missed something.
     
  15. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Golly, who can say?
    Yes.
    You make an assertion that flies in the face of all we actually know about physiology. You provide no evidence, why should I?
    Are you accusing me of having small hands?
    Sorry sir, is that not natural?
    I guess you missed the link...
     
  16. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    No evidence for that, either, just zany fantasies.
    In the fog? Golly, AMAZING!!!
     
  17. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    But it is not impossible to provide evidence for one position or the other.
    Odd how infrequently one side presents evidence of any sort.
    So you've been pointing out that there is no real evidence for a global flood? I must have missed it.. My mistake.
    It does? Hmmm.... I do wonder why t hen your side does so preferentially.
     
  18. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Where in Genesis II does it say that the 'mist' remained until the flood?

    How can plants grow when it is is foggy all the time?
    Is there a verse in Genesis II that describes light being able to penetrate "mist" up until the flood?
     
  19. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Active Member

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    These types of discussion can be frustrating because it is impossible to discuss any of these topics and principles in a vacuum.

    Nothing is isolated. Everything is connected. And prayer is a perfect example of that.

    The more I try to focus just on prayer - the further my need grows to mention other things - because they are all connected.

    For example - if someone has not done their due diligence in studying the Word of God - prayer may not do them much good - because they do not have an idea to Whom they are praying.

    Like you said - it's like talking to the wall.

    Also - if that person is not taking the opportunity to apply what they studied into their life - like being chaste for example - then prayer might not help them much either.

    This being because God does not answer prayers just to sate our curiosity. He answers us when He knows that we will act on the answer we are given.

    So - if we are not trying to come to know Him and are not trying to be like Him - prayer won't have as much of an effect.
    This - to me - is an example of people who didn't take the opportunity to study the Word of God.

    Besides particular ordinances being performed by holders of the Priesthood - God encourages us to pray to Him ourselves.

    The idea that people would ask their pastor to pray on their behalf is like asking someone else to go to college in your stead. It does you no good. You learn nothing.

    And also the idea that people think of prayer as nothing more than wish making - that is sad.
    Well - you're not wrong. Many answers I have gotten through prayer have been along those lines.

    God is not in the business of just giving us everything we need. If that were the case - then there would be no need for us to be here in mortality.

    He almost always requires us to prove ourselves before He blesses us.

    The times I believe I receive the most revelation is not when I'm praying - but when I'm either studying the scriptures or after I have been actively pondering on an idea for a time.

    I believe that God wants us to use all that we have first. Exercise our minds, hearts and spirits - before He opens the gates of revelation.

    Prayer can motivate us. Comfort us. Point us in the right direction - but He wants us to work out our salvation.
    It is important - but there are some times when simply saying, "I don't know" is acceptable.

    Like me and this case of Noah, the Ark and the Flood.
    I believe that the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ was revealed to Adam and Eve some time after their expulsion from the Garden.

    This is why they and their children performed animal sacrifice - to be obedient to God's command to remember the Sacrifice of the Son of God.

    This leads me to believe that this idea was passed down throughout all the generations of the Earth - yet not all of Adam's descendants were faithful - therefore many apostasies and false interpretations were had.

    So - it is my belief - that the Christian concept of Sacrifice and the Atonement are the culmination of God's promises made to Adam and Eve - our first parents.
    Oh ok - this is where I diverge from other Christians I guess.

    I believe that the Law has existed as long has God has - they are both co-eternal - and that God is perfect because He operates according to the Law.

    I believe that He is God because of His adherence to eternal Law - and His sustaining and honoring the Law.

    Basically - He did not make the Law up - it is the Law and He is a perfect Being because He does not violate it.

    If any of us wish to become more like Him - we would need to keep the Law - however - since none of us are perfect - we are going to violate the Law along the way.

    This condemns us - however - if the punishments for violating the Law were placed upon a willing Being - one who never once violated the Law - then the Law's demand for justice could be appeased.

    The Lord Jesus Christ did not suffer and die for Man because God demanded it - but because the Law demanded that all the punishments were issued for the violations.
    I don't think that's so weird.

    If my son were guilty of a crime - even unto death - and there was a way for me to be sacrificed in his stead - I may do it.

    Of course - that is not the same case as with the Lord Jesus Christ and us - but it is all my feeble mortal brain can contemplate right now.
    These types of questions always lead me to ask one in return,

    "If you were made all-powerful - would you do what you want to do or what you don't want to do?"

    God adheres to the Law perfectly - not because someone has a gun to His head - but because that is His nature. That is what He wants to do.

    And why? I believe it is because following the Law is the only means by which eternal life and joy are given and accomplished.

    God can only forgive sin according to the Law - because that is who He is - He is a perfectly Lawful Being.
    And I believe it is because we all share the same first parents - who taught their children the truth.
    I don't understand.

    I mean - would it not be reasonable to assume that if two baseball players had the same coaches, same training regimen, same experiences, same work ethic, same workouts, same desires - that they would have similar outcomes when playing the game?

    I understand that genetics may play a huge factor - but barring that?
    Well - the Allah thing is kinda weird.

    Conversations I have had with Muslims made it clear that they do not believe that Allah makes house calls like that. No personal revelation.

    Anyways - I can understand where you are coming from - and also where the other people are coming from.

    If they had experiences - then they would believe that anyone else could have them too.

    And my experience tells me that if someone is not getting answers - then they are doing something wrong.

    I understand it sounds unfair - but that is just my experience - and I have been on both sides of it - no one is perfect.

    To go back to my baseball analogy - you wouldn't be upset with a pro player for telling you that you were swinging wrong - would you?

    Now - don't get me wrong - I am not claiming to be a "pro" at any of this - but I do feel confident in sharing my experience.

    No offense intended - but there will always be someone better than you at something - and if your first instinct is to be offended - doesn't that prove that you were not being humble?

    And if them saying that was enough to knock you off your game - were you being sincere in your seeking?

    If Peter were to come and tell me that I'm doing something wrong - which I know I am all the time - then I wouldn't be a humble person if I got offended by that and I wouldn't be a sincere seeker of truth if that made me give up.

    Please understand that I did not mean to say any of this as a judgment - because I know where you are coming from and how much you probably don't want to hear it.

    We all start at the same place.
    Of course - not everyone lives in the same house.

    At your place - every light switch may work - but my place might have a few that don't - it all depends on how well we take care of our homes and our affairs.

    If you are a person who does not take care of your home and doesn't always pay your electric bill - then you may have find yourself flipping dead switches.

    If you take the time to study God's Word - learn who He is - and try to live by His commands - then your home will be better taken care of - and you can be more confident flipping those switches.
    But it does require a certain specific amount of resources, planning and preparedness.

    What if you flip a light switch that you haven't connected to any wires yet? What if the power company turned off your power because you weren't paying?

    There are things that you need to do to ensure that the lights come on when you flip the switch.

    If you don't do those things - you're never gonna get any light.

    None of us are entitled to revelation - just like none of us are entitled to electricity.

    If you want the light - either physically or spiritually - there are things you need to do.
     
  20. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Active Member

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    I suppose that depends on what you are asking about/for.

    I'm going to share a personal experience - there once was a time in my life when I was much more...adamant... about certain things than I am now.

    I mean - I was praying all the time and I was really "jonesing" for those spiritual experiences - and I had some - but I wanted more.

    I really wanted to be the next Apostle Paul or something.

    During this time - my wife's grandfather died - and we went to the hospital to visit with family and to see him.

    While we were there his daughters - all of which were nurses - were upset and wailing and demanding to see his chart. They couldn't believe it and wanted someone to blame.

    I knew the guy well - super funny - and we all remarked on how he did not look dead. He retained color and he still felt warm to the touch.

    When it came to be my turn to approach his bed and pay my respects - I was praying to God in my heart - nothing specific - but I wanted that connection there because of the solemnity of the scene.

    When I touched this dead man's hand - I believe I had a revelation - and it consisted of a scene playing in my head.

    In this scene I raised my right hand and I commanded this man to rise up - and he did - and his family began shouting joyously and I was initially very happy.

    Then however - the family eventually turned to me - and they looked at me with awe and praise - and then the doctor and nurses entered and started asking questions.

    This made me feel very uncomfortable - because I did not like how they were all looking at me and I didn't have the answers to their questions.

    This scene played in my head for the span of a heartbeat - and then I was back in the room looking at this dead man - and I felt that if I did in real life what I had seen in my head - it would happen.

    I stood there just staring at the face of this dead man I had known - teetering - weighing my options - and feeling this subtle pressure in my mind signifying that now was the time to make a decision.

    Finally - after maybe thirty seconds - that feeling passed - I felt the window of opportunity close - and I was ashamed.

    That was when I heard a voice in my head - and I recognized it but it was not my own voice - and it told me that I was not prepared to receive all the things I had been praying for.

    I was not prepared to be the next Apostle Paul - because I was not willing to sufficiently change my life - not willing to accept all the responsibilities associated with those blessings and that authority.

    Soon after I heard this voice one of my wife's aunt's remarked that their father no longer retained any color and that he finally felt cold.

    I related the entire experience to my wife after we left - and I apologized to her for my unwillingness to bring her grandfather back - she believed me and told me that it just wasn't meant to be.

    This experience has always stayed with me - telling me that it is more important to ask Him what we should pray for.

    Because - even though I was praying all the time - I didn't actually want to be the next Apostle Paul - and I assume that God did not want that for me either.

    This is why it is important to seek His will - through either prayer or His Word - and a desire to do it.

    Sorry for the lengthy story.
    Oops. I kinda did that already. Hah!
    Of course I am - we are all Fallen. We are all spiritually weak and underdeveloped.

    I'm sorry to say - but that's your pride talking.
    Correct.

    Don't ask me to find it - I mean I could - but I don't wanna - but there are verses in both the Old and New Testament that shed some light on this.

    First - that our spirits came from God, second - that God knew us before we came to this world, third - that God chooses where everyone goes, fourth - that we can only receive as much of the truth as we are able.

    There is truth in every religion. Some have more than others - but they all have truth.

    All of the practicing Muslims I have personally met - without exception - have been wonderful, kind and patient people.

    I know that their religion has a lot to do with that.

    However - I remember having a conversation with a Muslim friend of mine about the Holy Spirit - and he said that in his religion that anyone who claimed to have received a witness from any spirit - holy or otherwise - would have been considered a crazy person.

    They do not believe in having conversations with God or receiving witness through the Holy Spirit.

    So - I believe that God knows them and He put them where they are - and which religion they follow - because that was all the truth that they themselves were willing to receive.

    That may change in time - but they have what they need now.

    So - yes - had I been born in a Muslim part of the world - I may never have gotten the opportunity to pray about anything and ask God for answers - and I would most likely be a Muslim.
    It can be if you know something about the house or it's owner.
    I don't. I believe that the most important things in our lives are those that cannot be proven. It will always be that way.
    Sure - but we kill each other over pretty much anything - possibly even curry.

    I also don't see what the fuss is all about - but some people just like being in conflict and killing.
    Well - "all" except what was on the Ark - right?

    And He even told Noah to take "all" the food - didn't He?

    I think we are lacking context.

    I believe that God was referring to previous conversations that He had with Noah.

    That the "all" was a reference to the things that they had discussed.

    Kinda like, "You remember those people I was talking about? Yeah - all of them."

    "You remember those food stuffs I told you to prepare? Bring all of that."

    That's just my way of seeing it.
     
    #440 Fallen Prophet, Jun 3, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
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