Noachides

[Shem Ben Noah]

New member here. Would it be appropriate for a Noachide such as myself to hang out here?

See, I still keep kosher home, even though my (born) Jewish spouse has always been far less observant than me, and our kids... well, they all say their atheist, but strangely still Jewish...
Right...
See, still lots of issues and convos I'd perhaps like to have here.

 

[Tumah]

As a Noahide, you should be aware that there may be a prohition of "do not place a stumbling block" that you are transgressing with your marriage.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

I would say welcome, what may we do to assist

 

[rosends]

As a Noahide, you should be aware that there may be a prohition of "do not place a stumbling block" that you are transgressing with your marriage.

Is that law one of the seven? Is a Noachide allowed to place a michshol?

 

[Tumah]

Is that law one of the seven? Is a Noachide allowed to place a michshol?

To another eino yehudi yes, but I just saw today that it could be asur to be machshil a yisroel. Rav Yonasan Steif zt"l brings it in his sefer 'מצוות ה. The Aruch Hashulchan E"H 16:4 says eino neherag.

 

[rosends]

To another eino yehudi yes, but I just saw today that it could be asur to be machshil a yisroel. Rav Yonasan Steif zt"l brings it in his sefer 'מצוות ה. The Aruch Hashulchan E"H 16:4 says eino neherag.

I find that fascinating -- not conceptually, in that it makes logical sense, but in the possibility that hte Noachide is bound by anything beyond the 7, unless the tshuva you quote justifies by finding a makor in one of the seven (which would also be interesting).

 

[Tumah]

I find that fascinating -- not conceptually, in that it makes logical sense, but in the possibility that hte Noachide is bound by anything beyond the 7, unless the tshuva you quote justifies by finding a makor in one of the seven (which would also be interesting).

I'll try to remember to look it up tomorrow who he was quoting. You also know about this. I think there was also a Ramban about Kozbi but I have to check again.

 

[rosends]

I'll try to remember to look it up tomorrow who he was quoting. You also know about this. I think there was also a Ramban about Kozbi but I have to check again.

Yes, I know about the 30 specifics (and the four others suggested in A"Z) - in fact, one website I used to read went into even more detail and seemed to branch out to substantially more, but I'm still not sure how michshol would fit in (under gezel, for gneivas da'as?)

Kozbi/Zimri, it would seem to me, is a strange case. If it would fall under "adultery" that would require that Zimri was married and that his relationship wit Kozbi would be adultery, which halachically, it wasn't (I don't think).

 

[Akivah]

New member here. Would it be appropriate for a Noachide such as myself to hang out here?

See, I still keep kosher home, even though my (born) Jewish spouse has always been far less observant than me, and our kids... well, they all say their atheist, but strangely still Jewish...
Right...
See, still lots of issues and convos I'd perhaps like to have here.

While they debate your marriage, I'll address your other question. As you don't identify as Jewish, per RF rules you can only post respectful questions in the Judaism DIR. You can't teach or make declarative statements.

 

[Tumah]

Yes, I know about the 30 specifics (and the four others suggested in A"Z) - in fact, one website I used to read went into even more detail and seemed to branch out to substantially more, but I'm still not sure how michshol would fit in (under gezel, for gneivas da'as?)

I would guess under shfichas damim as a sub-category of סוטר לועו של ישראל. But I really don't know
Its an interesting sefer, in the section that deals with Bnei Noach, he goes through all the mitzvos and discusses which are nogeiah to them.

Kozbi/Zimri, it would seem to me, is a strange case. If it would fall under "adultery" that would require that Zimri was married and that his relationship wit Kozbi would be adultery, which halachically, it wasn't (I don't think).

It would require that Kozbi be married, not Zimri. There's no eishes ish between a married man and a penuya. I think theres also no din ishus by goyim klapei yisrael, but I'm not sure. But assuming she was a penuya and there's no din kenayim pogim bah then we need a reason why she was killed.

 

[rosends]

It would require that Kozbi be married, not Zimri. There's no eishes ish between a married man and a penuya. I think theres also no din ishus by goyim klapei yisrael, but I'm not sure. But assuming she was a penuya and there's no din kenayim pogim bah then we need a reason why she was killed.

I don't think Kozbi's being "married" would matter. I was just figuring that to be called "adultery" by any standard, it would require that the one bound by the halachos of adultery be married. Then one could figure out what could be chal between him and a non-Jew. So the question arises, what was the justified cause of action which made her chayav misah?

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

As a Noahide, you should be aware that there may be a prohition of "do not place a stumbling block" that you are transgressing with your marriage.

I was already converted when we married. Maybe I was not considered a Jew by black hats, but then they never would anyways.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

While they debate your marriage, I'll address your other question. As you don't identify as Jewish, per RF rules you can only post respectful questions in the Judaism DIR. You can't teach or make declarative statements.

LOL, ya, let them all they want.

I would say I'm still a Jew outwardly, my inlaws know no different.

But I know I just don't fit in the community, never did, time to admit it at least to myself. My spouse understands and is OK with it, knowing what I've been thru.

OK, for here...

Obviously I'd not teach or offer opinion on anything other than Noachide laws.

How about if I put a question mark on each sentence?

That way everthing is a question? Even if it's not really? Hey, this is fun?
IDK if I can keep it respectful to black hats as they sure as ...... never have been respectful to me?

 

[Tarheeler]

LOL, ya, let them all they want.

I would say I'm still a Jew outwardly, my inlaws know no different.

But I know I just don't fit in the community, never did, time to admit it at least to myself. My spouse understands and is OK with it, knowing what I've been thru.

OK, for here...

Obviously I'd not teach or offer opinion on anything other than Noachide laws.

How about if I put a question mark on each sentence?

That way everthing is a question? Even if it's not really? Hey, this is fun?
IDK if I can keep it respectful to black hats as they sure as ...... never have been respectful to me?

The DIR's require that posters be practicing members of the religion represented in that DIR.
Given what you're posted, I'd say you don't really fit the bill for the Judaism DIR.

But you're good for the parent directory, the Abrahamic DIR, and possibly either the Christianity DIR or Messianic Judaism DIR depending on your specific beliefs.

 

[Tumah]

I was already converted when we married. Maybe I was not considered a Jew by black hats, but then they never would anyways.

I think there may be some confusion here. Noahidism is not a seperate religion from Judaism. Its bound by the same Torah that Judaism is bound. See Maimonides Kings and wars 10:3 a convert can't become a Noahide. So you can argue that you never accepted on yourself the commandments of a Jew and your conversion was inherently invalid, in which case my point stands. Or your conversion was valid and your self description in wrong. In which case , please excuse my confusion.

I assume by "black hat" you mean "Orthodox Jews" although not all Orthodox Jews wear black hats. Your statement "they would never anyways" I assume you mean to say, "they would never accept me as a convert because my conversion was not through a competent Orthodox authority" and not "they would never accept me as a convert even had I converted in an acceptable manner".

 

[RabbiO]

I assume by "black hat" you mean "Orthodox Jews" although not all Orthodox Jews wear black hats.

You don't have to be Orthodox to be offended by the term "black hats" when, as here, it is used in a pejorative manner.

 

[Tumah]

You don't have to be Orthodox to be offended by the term "black hats" when, as here, it is used in a pejorative manner.

I thought it might just be a way of delineating between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews for someone who doesn't know better.

 

[rosends]

I just saw it as a common synecdoche.

 

[Tumah]

I don't think Kozbi's being "married" would matter. I was just figuring that to be called "adultery" by any standard, it would require that the one bound by the halachos of adultery be married. Then one could figure out what could be chal between him and a non-Jew. So the question arises, what was the justified cause of action which made her chayav misah?

OK, so after a big disturbance today, I have some information. The Rav Steiff was quoting the sefer Yalkut Sofer quoting the Nachal Eshkol (I think its on the sefer HaEshkol) that says that they should be chayav for being machshil from the sevara that if he's chayav for סוטר לועו then kol sheken for being machshil. I don't know what happened to ein onshin min hadin. I thought maybe he'll say potur aval ossur because of that. But he brings the case of the eino yehudi that ate from the korban pesach with Rav Yehudah ben Tabai as proof where he did get misa (even though the issur is to feed it to him not for him to eat it).

The Ramban here also says it for a different reason. I assume that Rav Steiff sees them as bnei Noach. The sefer Hamakneh is docheh the Ramban by differentiating between a meisis and a someone who wants to do the aveirah.

The Rambam paskens like the Aruch Hashulchan said, eino neherag in the case of a penuya. If its through marriage, then he holds its a lav of lo tischasen which she would get malkus for and if its not through marriage (or according to other poskim, not from the sheva amamim) then its a derabanan and makas mardus again for her. I want to be medayek that he says "eino neherag" and not "mutar" because the only onesh they have is sayif and this wouldn't get sayif. So potur aval assur. But so far I haevn't seen it anywhere.

The Or Sameach asks why there's no machsil here as there is in the case of a Yisroel with a goya where she also gets misa. He says because machshil only applies in a case of avizrayhu d'orayos which we see from kenaim pogim bo that for a Yisroel it is. But there's no kenaim pogim bah in the case of a Yisraelis so there's no arayos and therefore no machshil.

I think its the Nimukei Yosef who says that there is kareis drabanan by boel aramis b'tzinah and kenaim pogim is only b'farhesya. I don't know though if there's also kareis d'rabanan for a niveles al yidei arami.

/end chaburah

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

The DIR's require that posters be practicing members of the religion represented in that DIR.
Given what you're posted, I'd say you don't really fit the bill for the Judaism DIR.

I suppose you're right, mate. Seems likely anything I post here will be derailed, questions I can just google after all.

But you're good for the parent directory, the Abrahamic DIR, and possibly either the Christianity DIR or Messianic Judaism DIR depending on your specific beliefs.

I'm not at all Christian and as for MJ... well, I'd be doubly not a fit there, eh?.