Native American mascots: OK or offensive?

[KirbyFan101]

So if Native Americans don't have redskin, then why take offense to it? Skinning a person and calling thier appearance redskinned can be applied to any race.
Distorted spite... what a crazy thing.

Because it was to do with the Native Americans in specific. It wasn't "any race" that was getting scalped.

 

[michel]

Just for the record "red-skin" is a racial slur and has been for more than a century. :149:

I find it odd that many think its ok to have a happy cliche big nosed red skinned bonnet wearing tomahawk wielding 'holywood beat' dancing indian... but if you had a team named the "jews" or to quote south park "the darkies" it would cause an uproar.

Just my take, but hey I'm biased

wa:do

I didn't really want to try and join in on a subject that is so tailored to American Culture - simply because I don't believe that a 'foreigner' can pass judgement on the behaviour of people from another country. But I will!

I tend to go with Melody's and Painted Wolf's views - anything that might offend anyone else is 'out of bounds' as far as I am concerned; and that is not just in racism - it applies to anything in life - ageism, for example.

I think that it is far better to have a good, happy atmosphere throughout society with no one group feeling 'got-at', even at the very small price of losing a few words from the dictionary.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I would have to recuse myself on the 'Noles (Being a die-hard decent Gator). However, I think any name associated with any particular race is ill advised.

Crystallas,

The red or ruddy appearance of the Native Americans' skin has nothing to do with skinning. Why do you think they call chineese "yellow skinned"? Because they urinate all over it or something?

 

[BUDDY]

Precisely Kreedan

and those who want to perpetrate the stereotype of the "warring redman" look like total fools to me. I could not have said it any better. Couch it in any terms you want, but the stupidity of debating why we think racial stereotypes are "OK" is beyond me.

Lets see how far the "New York Hebes" goes.

But only the racial stereotypes that are not PC, right? In other words people aren't up in arms about the Fighting Irish, or the Demon Deacons because they are white. But, if you say anything about the native american, there is hell to pay. Even if you are trying to emulate a historical character, and not a racial stereotype. What hypocracy. In fact being PC is usually just a practice in hypocracy.

I, for one, do not believe that a racial stereotype is what is going on in these cases. We are not naming these teams after current, radical, racist misrepresentations of the native american. No one actually believes that the native american still rides around on horses all the time with a spear and war paint, do they? No. What we are doing is emulating a certain characteristic of a noble race of people that we want to represent our sports teams. I see nothing wrong with that. If you think this is so horrible, maybe it is because you are still under the impression that the historical figure is still the accurate modern day figure. FYI, it isn't. Just like folks in northern Tenessee don't carry muskets, wear coon skin caps and leather clothes and call themselves volunteers. Just like people in New England don't all wear colonial clothing, ride around on horses saying the red coats are coming, and call themselves patriots. Historical characters and racials stereotypes are two very different things, and only the radical PC proponents fail to see the difference.

 

[Scuba Pete]

No one actually believes that the native american still rides around on horses all the time with a spear and war paint, do they?

News Flash!!! News Flash!!! Very few native americans ever did! But that you state that they don't anymore shows just how bad such stereotypes affect us.

But you're right. The fighting Irish is NOT a good name. The fighting Leprechans would be better.

 

[Ryan2065]

News Flash!!! News Flash!!! Very few native americans ever did! But that you state that they don't anymore shows just how bad such stereotypes affect us.

Depends really who you are talking about. To use your sarcastic language... News Flash News Flash, there were many tribes of indians and saying that all indians did or didn't do something is completely wrong.
Plains Indians used horses and they did ride around with spears and war paint. (Note, war paint refers to them riding them in a time of war)

[font=book antiqua,times new roman,times]The Pueblo Rebellion of 1680 forced the Spanish out of New Mexico and many horses were left behind. The Pueblo Indians and other tribes in the area took full advantage of these horses.[/font]

[font=book antiqua,times new roman,times]Within a few decades after acquiring horses, many military leaders considered the Comanche as the finest light cavalry in the world.[/font]

[font=book antiqua,times new roman,times]The Shoshone traded with the Utes and Comanche for their first horses in the early seventeen hundreds. Not long after, the Nez Perce had horses, and by 1740 the Crow had horses. About this same time, the Blackfeet got horses from the Nez Perce and Flatheads. Indians not only acquired Spanish horses, the warriors followed the ways of the Spanish in terms of handling, riding, and use of equipment.[/font]

[font=book antiqua,times new roman,times]It took decades for a tribe to accumulate enough horses for their needs. Of the true nomadic tribes only the Comanche, Kiowa, and Crow had enough horses throughout most of the horse period (Haines). Haines states that it took eight to ten horses to satisfy the needs of each family.[/font]

http://www.thefurtrapper.com/indian_horse.htm

 

[BUDDY]

News Flash!!! News Flash!!! Very few native americans ever did! But that you state that they don't anymore shows just how bad such stereotypes affect us.

But you're right. The fighting Irish is NOT a good name. The fighting Leprechans would be better.

In refence to the FSU maskot, who comes out and runs the field with his spear before every game. While the seminole indians did not have a lot of uses for horses since they were mostly involved in agriculture, this representation (agreed to by the tribe) uses one in its act. I guess someone should tell the tribe that they are perpetuating their own stereotype, huh?

Also, the native american relationship to the horse is not a stereotype. While most tribes in the pacific northwest, south east and great lakes regions did not have horses for the majority of their existence in North America, the great tribes of the great plains region, did and used them quite effectively to expand and enrich their lives and their culture.

http://www.pbs.org/wildhorses/wh_man/wh_man.html

 

[painted wolf]

Sadly there are a lot of sterotypes that are ingrained into the pop culture of America.

the biggest issues with the Mascots are:
1) racist imagry
2) mocking use of scarid icons (feathers, bonnets, face paint and so on)
3) perpetuization of falce ideas of what Native Americans are and the Trivialization of our religion, traditions and culture.

As NetDoc pointed out only a few tribes used the horse as a means of travel... and that was only in the last few hundred years when they were introduced by Europeans.
We didn't all live in teepees, wear war paint, have war bonnets, carry spears and so on.
There are more than 500 tribes.

No one likes to see thier people trivialized. It is a degradation of human dignity.

wa:do

 

[DreamQuickBook]

No one likes to see thier people trivialized. It is a degradation of human dignity.

wa:do

Not really. A degradation of human dignity is what we did to the Natives when we got here. Having mascots is about sports and stereotypes that relate to strength, ferocity and competition.

 

[Crystallas]

Forgiveness is more important than dignity.

 

[Crystallas]

Crystallas,

The red or ruddy appearance of the Native Americans' skin has nothing to do with skinning. Why do you think they call chineese "yellow skinned"? Because they urinate all over it or something?

I think you missed my point.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Ryan...

Name ONE AMERICAN NATIVE TRIBE that ran around on horseback with war paint on and a spear in one hand. Just one. That's my point, mon ami. EEWRED used the word "still" which implied that they USED to do that. NEWS FLASH: They didn't!

War was the exception: not the rule! We make it the rule not the exception. How sad. But hey, I guess you must like war.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I think you missed my point.

Your point (if any) was poorly made. Where do you think the term red skin came from, but the color of their skin?

 

[Ryan2065]

Ryan...

Name ONE AMERICAN NATIVE TRIBE that ran around on horseback with war paint on and a spear in one hand. Just one. That's my point, mon ami. EEWRED used the word "still" which implied that they USED to do that. NEWS FLASH: They didn't!

War was the exception: not the rule! We make it the rule not the exception. How sad. But hey, I guess you must like war.

Ok, I gave references to tribes that used horses in war, I just assumed you would be able to make the connection that they also used war paint and spears at the same time. Or maybe I assumed you would do your own research before saying what you said. I quoted you, you are asking me to name one Native American tribe that used the following: Horses, War Paint, and Spears, all at the same time. The Arapaho Indian tribe used horses, spears, and war paint.

http://www.geocities.com/bigorrin/arapaho_kids.htm

And before you "bash" the source calling it a geocities site... This is linked from http://www.native-languages.org/arapaho.htm

Apparently there is at least ONE Native American tribe who used war paint, spears, and horses.

 

[Scuba Pete]

It was actually not that bad of site.

They made reference to their mode of transportation before Europeans showed up: DOG. However, your first post not only contained a characature of Indian life, you said they did it ALL OF THE TIME. See how pervasive your stereotype is? Next you'll be telling us that blacks ALWAYS want watermelon, and that Jews ALWAYS cheat people.

Stereotypes of people are BAD. Way BAD. You can ascribe to them if you want, but I think I will steer clear. I don't buy into this "F-Troop" mentality.

 

[Ryan2065]

They made reference to their mode of transportation before Europeans showed up: DOG. However, your first post not only contained a characature of Indian life, you said they did it ALL OF THE TIME. See how pervasive your stereotype is? Next you'll be telling us that blacks ALWAYS want watermelon, and that Jews ALWAYS cheat people.

So first off... Just to point this out, what does the fact that Indians got around by dog have to do with anything? Secondly, please do quote where I said that Indians always rode around on horses. I notice you did not quote the exact time that I said this and I went back and could not find any time where I said that Indians rode around on horses and in war paint all the time.

What I think you were referring to was when EEWRED said:

No one actually believes that the native american still rides around on horses all the time with a spear and war paint, do they? No. What we are doing is emulating a certain characteristic of a noble race of people that we want to represent our sports teams.

Note I actually quoted his WHOLE statement. When in a debate, it is usually good to read someones actual statement and not just parts. EEWRED's full statement shows that he did not mean that Indians would ALWAYS run around on horses and in war paint, but that it WAS a characteristic that they had years ago. He just worded his statement badly and you jumped on him from this and changed the debate from Native American Mascots to Did Native Americans use horses, spears, and war paint.
Here is another News Flash for you. The fact that some Native Americans used war paint, spears, and horses does nothing for the debate on either side because it is still a stereotype that they all used these things. You effectively used what is called a "Red Herring" where you start argueing something that has nothing to do with the topic to make the debate lose focus. You NEVER addressed the point EEWRED posed because you were too busy argueing over a silly mistake in wording. The point EEWRED posed was this:

What we are doing is emulating a certain characteristic of a noble race of people that we want to represent our sports teams. I see nothing wrong with that. If you think this is so horrible, maybe it is because you are still under the impression that the historical figure is still the accurate modern day figure

 

[Scuba Pete]

My apologies,

the original quote was by EEWRED.

What about "all the time" did you think did not mean "all the time"???

But listen. Continue to stereotype others. May you be blessed as you do so.

 

[Mister Emu]

War was the exception: not the rule! We make it the rule not the exception.

No, I for one do not make it the rule. But when a mascot is for a violent, agressive, battle-like game, what better imagery to use than war? The mascots are there to inspire pride and fear, not accurately represent daily life.

I understand that you are a gator fan, and, to mildly say so, dislike florida state. The question asked still remains, an unnamed school with full support from the tribe represented has a native american mascot, what possible reason is there to force them to change?

 

[Scuba Pete]

To that un-named school: Please choose another mascot.

For those who choose to still use such mascots: you have lost me as a customer.

 

[Mister Emu]

To that un-named school: Please choose another mascot.

So Native American opinions don't really matter?