"My Son is Gay"

[mudge991]

I would say upbringing plays a part in the way that if you took 200 people from Saudi Arabia and 200 people from Mexico, you can clearly tell that the religion alone in most cases would either be overwhelming Islamic or catholic.
"Researchers' public statements to the press are often grand and far-reaching. But when answering the scientific community, they speak much more cautiously.

"Gay gene" researcher Dean Hamer was asked by Scientific American if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology. He replied:

"Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors."

It is not possible to know what the findings mean--if anything--since sexual orientation cannot possibly be inherited in the direct way eyecolor is.

 

[mudge991]

The difference is, christians don't HAVE to know all the answers. That's where faith comes in. We don't have to know the how. All we need to know is the why.

Christians don't want to know the answers. Try to have a Christian logically explain why he believes what he does and you will find a circular argument that is akin to "because mommy told me so"

 

[rheff78]

Christians don't want to know the answers. Try to have a Christian logically explain why he believes what he does and you will find a circular argument that is akin to "because mommy told me so"

Thanks for telling me why I believe what I believe. Trying to talk to someone who doens't believe is like trying to to tell the sky not to be blue. Turn it around. We do want to know the answers, we can just wait till we see God to get them.

 

[Autodidact]

I would say upbringing plays a part in the way that if you took 200 people from Saudi Arabia and 200 people from Mexico, you can clearly tell that the religion alone in most cases would either be overwhelming Islamic or catholic.
"Researchers' public statements to the press are often grand and far-reaching. But when answering the scientific community, they speak much more cautiously.

"Gay gene" researcher Dean Hamer was asked by Scientific American if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology. He replied:

"Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors."

It is not possible to know what the findings mean--if anything--since sexual orientation cannot possibly be inherited in the direct way eyecolor is.

All good, all true. By the same token, it seems to have a strong biological component. More like intelligence or weight than eye color.

btw I agree that the evidence is tentative.

I guess my view is this: None of us chooses what we prefer; we all choose whether to act on our preferences. Since homosexuality is morally neutral to positive, there is no reason not act on it.

Religion is very interesting. Most religionists think they're being guided by the holy spirit or its equivalent, but the data seems to indicate that the strongest factors in determining religious belief are:
geography
family upbringing
education level
gender
race.

That is, if you are a male Pakistani raised in a Muslim family, the odds are overwhelming that you will be Muslim. If you are a female African-American from Texas with a high school education, raised in a Christian family, the odds are quite strong that you will be Christian. Substitute Utah and Mormon and you get Mormon. Funny how the holy spirit seems to track geography and upbringing like that. You'd almost think people believe what they're taught to believe, wouldn't you?

 

[Autodidact]

Thanks for telling me why I believe what I believe. Trying to talk to someone who doens't believe is like trying to to tell the sky not to be blue. Turn it around. We do want to know the answers, we can just wait till we see God to get them.

Do you see how you just illustrated his point? That is, do you see how circular this is? You're assuming the answer you're trying to establish.

 

[Smoke]

I would say upbringing plays a part in the way that if you took 200 people from Saudi Arabia and 200 people from Mexico, you can clearly tell that the religion alone in most cases would either be overwhelming Islamic or catholic.

Are you able to see that religion is not the same thing as sexuality?

You still haven't answered my questions.

How do you know for sure that upbringing plays a part in homosexuality?

Is there any evidence that heterosexuality is genetic?

It is not possible to know what the findings mean--if anything--since sexual orientation cannot possibly be inherited in the direct way eyecolor is.

You are aware, aren't you, that it's possible for two brown-eyed people to have a blue-eyed child?

 

[rheff78]

Do you see how you just illustrated his point? That is, do you see how circular this is? You're assuming the answer you're trying to establish.

Tell me, I tihnk that's a pretty straight forward answer. YOu don't believe so you don't understand. Liewise for us about you.

 

[Autodidact]

Also, mudge, you don't see the same kind of variation with sexual preference as with religion. That is, people from all kinds of families are gay/straight in about the same proportion.

 

[Mike182]

I am sorry if I offended you. I suppose I should have emphasized that the ONLY thing we have quantitative evidence of, is that upbringing has shown to be a factor in peoples development. I use it in the way that you are more likely to be Islamic than mormon growing up in saudi arabia.

i'm not offended, but it is an emotional topic, where off handed comments could be taken more to heart than you intend them to be taken.

 

[mudge991]

Are you able to see that religion is not the same thing as sexuality?

You still haven't answered my questions.

How do you know for sure that upbringing plays a part in homosexuality?

Is there any evidence that heterosexuality is genetic?


You are aware, aren't you, that it's possible for two brown-eyed people to have a blue-eyed child?

There is no evidence that any sexual orientation is genetic at all.

I did answer your other question. However I shall do so again, more simply;

I never claimed that upbringing you gay or straight, I said that it plays a part in your development, and that if you read the posts above, I reference in what context.

There are only two major principles that need to be carefully understood in order to see through the distortions of the recent research. They are as follows:

1. Heritable does not mean inherited.
2. Genetics research which is truly meaningful will identify, and then focus on, only traits that are directly inherited.

Inherited means "directly determined by genes," with little or no way of preventing or modifying the trait through a change in the environment.



​

 

[mudge991]

Also, mudge, you don't see the same kind of variation with sexual preference as with religion. That is, people from all kinds of families are gay/straight in about the same proportion.

What data are you using to make that statement? "people from all kinds of families are gay/straight in about the same proportion" ? I haven't seen that research. Can you give me a link?

Thankies

 

[Smoke]

I never claimed that upbringing you gay or straight, I said that it plays a part in your development, and that if you read the posts above, I reference in what context.

There are only two major principles that need to be carefully understood in order to see through the distortions of the recent research. They are as follows:

1. Heritable does not mean inherited.
2. Genetics research which is truly meaningful will identify, and then focus on, only traits that are directly inherited.

Inherited means "directly determined by genes," with little or no way of preventing or modifying the trait through a change in the environment.​

Please understand that I am not saying homosexuality is necessarily directly inherited. We simply don't know.

However, you are saying that it's at least partly the result of upbringing, and that you know this for sure. You still haven't presented any evidence for that position; all you've done is counter with arguments against a position that nobody here is defending.
​

 

[mudge991]

Ok even simpler for you and you alone; I did not say that environment made you gay, I said that all we know is that it influences your psychological/character makeup. Unless you know of a third option that shapes you as a child, other than having a crack addict mom that passes a habit to you.

 

[Smoke]

Ok even simpler for you and you alone; I did not say that environment made you gay, I said that all we know is that it influences your psychological/character makeup.

Of course it does. But does it follow from that that upbringing plays a part in determining our sexuality? Can there be any aspect of our psychology/character makeup that may not be the result of our upbringing?

Also, upbringing and environmental factors are not precisely the same. Upbringing is only a part of our environment.

 

[mudge991]

Of course it does. But does it follow from that that upbringing plays a part in determining our sexuality? Can there be any aspect of our psychology/character makeup that may not be the result of our upbringing?

Also, upbringing and environmental factors are not precisely the same. Upbringing is only a part of our environment.

I follow it only until it becomes speculation and wishful thinking. Feeling or hoping for something is a poor excuse for evidence. We already established that genes aren't the answer. If you know of a third option, I'd be happy to hear it. (maybe its gods plan?) j/k

I personally think it's not to be feared, as maybe we are all wrong, and its biology's built in plan to slow population growth at a certain evolution point.

 

[Smoke]

We already established that genes aren't the answer.

Actually, the only thing we've established is that we don't know the causes of human sexuality.

 

[mudge991]

MidnightBlue;
By the way, I have no personal axe to grind here. I abhor stupid/controlling behavior in any form, as i'm sure you do. You should see me have fun with Scientology's nut's ...lol

 

[Smoke]

MidnightBlue;
By the way, I have no personal axe to grind here. I abhor stupid/controlling behavior in any form, as i'm sure you do. You should see me have fun with Scientology's nut's ...lol

I'm not at all offended. But I still think any flat assertion about the causes of human sexuality is unwarranted.

 

[mudge991]

I'm not at all offended. But I still think any flat assertion about the causes of human sexuality is unwarranted.

Agreed.

 

[Sunstone]

Actually, the only thing we've established is that we don't know the causes of human sexuality.

Human sexuality was invented in 1898 by the Acme Latex Corporation's Public Relations Department as a ploy to sell Acme Latex Love Dolls and inflatable pylons.