My Paidagogos (Galatians 3:24)

[Shermana]

So there's no possibility that the Hebrews simply had forgotten or gone into lax with their commandments that Abraham may have taught them during those 400 years in slavery without any leadership or authority?

By your logic, they never knew not to blaspheme either, since they had to consult what to do with the half-Egyptian.

So which one is it? Blasphemy is a new concept that did not exist before or they forgot about the concept?

 

[Pegg]

So there's no possibility that the Hebrews simply had forgotten or gone into lax with their commandments that Abraham may have taught them during those 400 years in slavery without any leadership or authority?

By your logic, they never knew not to blaspheme either, since they had to consult what to do with the half-Egyptian.

So which one is it? Blasphemy is a new concept that did not exist before or they forgot about the concept?

Do you really need a written law to know that blaspheming or abusing God is wrong? Seriously?

We have a God given conscience... we know when something is bad because our conscience condemns us. A 'guilty' conscience is a powerful motivator to repent. And our ability to weigh and judge a matter is only due to our God given conscience.

How did Joseph know that having sexual relations with another mans wife was a sin against God? Its called a conscience.

 

[Shermana]

Pegg, your logic got shot down, now you're changing the subject.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, your logic got shot down, now you're changing the subject.

Not at all.

There is no logic in claiming that Abraham knew the mosiac law before it had been given to mankind.

Do you believe in the so-called 'Oral Laws'?

 

[Shermana]

Not at all.

There is no logic in claiming that Abraham knew the mosiac law before it had been given to mankind.

Do you believe in the so-called 'Oral Laws'?

You said they didn't know about Sabbath since they didn't know what to do about an offender.

But apparently this doesn't apply to blasphemy even if they didn't know what to do about an offender.

And then you say that thus, blasphemy is something in our inner conscience but obedience to Sabbath is not, as if that somehow proves that one was simply forgotten or something but the other was new and never existed prior to that.

Just admit it Pegg, your logic is illogical.

I do believe there are some oral laws, yes. Determining which ones are valid is not easy. I believe kosher slaughter is one of them. But not prohibiting milk and meat.

 

[Ken Brown]

well for instance, we know that the observance of the Sabbath was NOT something Abraham practiced. How do we know?

There is an account of the Isrealites after they had left Egypt, Moses had just given them the Mosaic law and an israelite man was caught picking up sticks on the Sabbath. The camp didnt know what to do about it. It was a situation they had never encountered before....they sought advice from Moses as to what should be done to someone who works on the sabbath.

Now why didnt they know what the law stated about work on the sabbath? Dont you think it was because this was a new law for them???

Where was their 'oral' tradition regarding the Sabbath law? Simply put, they didnt have one! Why? Because they never knew of such a law as keeping the sabbath day. Why? Because Abraham never practiced such a law and he never handed it down orally to his Son Isaac who never handed it down to his son Jacob, who never handed it down to his 12 Sons who made up the tribe of Israel.

No Sabbath law means that what Moses gave the people were 'new' laws and requirements. And my guess is that the statutes and laws that Abraham knew, were the ones that God gave to Noah and laws concerning righteous moral behaviours as we learn from in the account about Job.

Hi Pegg, what about circumcision? KB

 

[Pegg]

You said they didn't know about Sabbath since they didn't know what to do about an offender.

But apparently this doesn't apply to blasphemy even if they didn't know what to do about an offender.

And then you say that thus, blasphemy is something in our inner conscience but obedience to Sabbath is not, as if that somehow proves that one was simply forgotten or something but the other was new and never existed prior to that.

Just admit it Pegg, your logic is illogical.

I do believe there are some oral laws, yes. Determining which ones are valid is not easy. I believe kosher slaughter is one of them. But not prohibiting milk and meat.

You are not making a lot of sense now.

If there were oral laws, then the sabbath requirements would have certainly been among them.

Even people of the nations know that it is wrong to blaspheme God. Are you honestly saying that no one knows what is right or wrong unless they have the mosaic law??

Look at the laws of various ancient nations. Adultery was a crime in other nations who did not have the mosiac law....always has been. Stealing has always been a crime, lying is a known wrong, murder is wrong in every tribe and nation.

The ancient romans and greeks had laws...many of the same laws you find in the mosaic law.


How do people of the nations know right from wrong?

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg, what about circumcision? KB

circumcision was certainly practised... it was handed down from Abraham.
Joshua 5:5*For all the people who came out (of Egypt) proved to be circumcised, but all the people born in the wilderness on the road when they were coming out of Egypt they had not circumcised.


This is another good reason to ask why they remembered circumcision, but not how the Sabbath was to be observed.

 

[Ken Brown]

circumcision was certainly practised... it was handed down from Abraham.
Joshua 5:5*For all the people who came out (of Egypt) proved to be circumcised, but all the people born in the wilderness on the road when they were coming out of Egypt they had not circumcised.

This is another good reason to ask why they remembered circumcision, but not how the Sabbath was to be observed.

Hi Pegg, have you not read:

Gen 18:19
(19) For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Yahweh, to do justice and judgment; that Yahweh may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

According to Yahweh's judgment:

Eze 44:23-24
(23) And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
(24) And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Pegg, are you suggesting that Abraham taught his children and household differently to do justice and judgment than how Yahweh required of the Levites? KB

 

[Shermana]

You are not making a lot of sense now.

If there were oral laws, then the sabbath requirements would have certainly been among them.

Even people of the nations know that it is wrong to blaspheme God. Are you honestly saying that no one knows what is right or wrong unless they have the mosaic law??

Look at the laws of various ancient nations. Adultery was a crime in other nations who did not have the mosiac law....always has been. Stealing has always been a crime, lying is a known wrong, murder is wrong in every tribe and nation.

The ancient romans and greeks had laws...many of the same laws you find in the mosaic law.


How do people of the nations know right from wrong?

No Pegg, you are the one not talking sense, and you are changing the subject to wiggle out of the blatant contradiction in your arbitrary logic. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make regarding Sabbath Oral laws. It's very simple, Abraham may very well have been taught the Sabbath, and like the Blasphemy laws, the Israelites simply may have forgotten about them or what to do about a violator. Apparently, blasphemy may have been quite a common occurence among the Israelites when Moses led them through the Desert.

A point I've brought up several times which you have left unaddressed each time, is that Paul himself said that he did not know it was a sin to covet until the law revealed it to him.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
One of my all time favorite scriptures is this:
Deuteronomy 32:1-4
1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of YAHWEH: ascribe ye greatness unto our ELOHIM.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: an EL of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
I absolutely love the phrase, "Gentle rain upon the tender grass".
Who is the Rock? The Apostle Paul asserts that My Messiah Yahushua is the Rock:
1 Corinthians 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Messiah.
Accordingly, Pegg, why do you not believe My Messiah Yahushua when HE exhorts all the earth through Moses to choose life over death (see Deuteronomy 30:19)? Why do you believe that you yourself have any chance to live when by your actions and your word, you prove that you choose death over life? Your chance for life is nil unless you yourself can fulfill the Law of Moses. Therefore, under the Law, you have, despite what you think, you have absolutely no chance for continued life. You must and will die in your sins as the teaching of Moses does teach. As far as your continued physical life right now is concerned, this is gentle rain upon the tender grass:
Pegg, do you yourself really have a Savior from sin and death?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
P.S. Do Witnesses really publish the Name of YAHWEH better than the teaching of Moses?

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
The Apostle Paul taught that the Law was given through Moses:
Romans 5:13-14
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
If the Law was given to Abraham, then sin would have been imputed from Abraham to Moses. All those that attempt to teach that the whole Law was given to Abraham, and especially that the Sabbath Command was given to Abraham, they are blowing smoke! They don't know what they are talking about!
So, you have an ally here on this issue. How about that?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
The Apostle Paul taught that the Law was given through Moses:
Romans 5:13-14
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
If the Law was given to Abraham, then sin would have been imputed from Abraham to Moses. All those that attempt to teach that the whole Law was given to Abraham, and especially that the Sabbath Command was given to Abraham, they are blowing smoke! They don't know what they are talking about!
So, you have an ally here on this issue. How about that?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Yes, that I do

And thats a very good scripture to use too...i hadnt thought of that one. I wonder what Shermana will reply?

I might just ask you regarding this....if there was no Law given to Abraham, what was it about him that made him righteous in Gods eyes. What was it about Abraham that God counted him as a 'friend'....and if Abraham can gain such a friendship with God apart from mosaic law, then why cant we?

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg, have you not read:

Gen 18:19
(19) For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Yahweh, to do justice and judgment; that Yahweh may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

According to Yahweh's judgment:

Eze 44:23-24
(23) And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
(24) And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Pegg, are you suggesting that Abraham taught his children and household differently to do justice and judgment than how Yahweh required of the Levites? KB

What you are quoting from in Ezekiel does not relate to Abraham. Its way out of context. At the time of Ezekiels prophesying, the priesthood was corrupt and the nation were in captivity in Babylon.

God was going to restore them and the priesthood would once again teach the people Gods law. Abraham did not have the mosaic law....but the example he gave to his children was to obey God in whatever God asked. He led by example to the point of willingly offering up his son isaac in sacrifice at Gods request.

Later when God gave the Israelites the mosaic law, they accepted that law covenant and swore to uphold it just as Abraham would have wanted them to.

 

[Pegg]

No Pegg, you are the one not talking sense, and you are changing the subject to wiggle out of the blatant contradiction in your arbitrary logic. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make regarding Sabbath Oral laws. It's very simple, Abraham may very well have been taught the Sabbath, and like the Blasphemy laws, the Israelites simply may have forgotten about them or what to do about a violator. Apparently, blasphemy may have been quite a common occurence among the Israelites when Moses led them through the Desert.

A point I've brought up several times which you have left unaddressed each time, is that Paul himself said that he did not know it was a sin to covet until the law revealed it to him.

you are speculated on something that is not found in scripture.

How could they 'forget' about the sabbath, yet 'remember' the circumcision?

You are making things up because you want to push the idea that the mosaic law is what Abraham practiced.....but there is absolutely no evidence for that idea. The only evidence we have is that 400 years after Abraham died, Moses was sent to the Israelites and given a new set of laws...some of which were so knew to them that they had no idea what to do with a person who broke one of them.

The biblical evidence doesnt lead to where you are suggesting.

 

[Ken Brown]

What you are quoting from in Ezekiel does not relate to Abraham. Its way out of context. At the time of Ezekiels prophesying, the priesthood was corrupt and the nation were in captivity in Babylon.

God was going to restore them and the priesthood would once again teach the people Gods law. Abraham did not have the mosaic law....but the example he gave to his children was to obey God in whatever God asked. He led by example to the point of willingly offering up his son isaac in sacrifice at Gods request.

Later when God gave the Israelites the mosaic law, they accepted that law covenant and swore to uphold it just as Abraham would have wanted them to.

Hi Pegg, my point was that Abraham was going to TEACH his children to do "justice and judgment." How do we know what justice and judgment is? This might help concerning the Sabbath:

Isa 56:1-2
(1) Thus saith Yahweh, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
(2) Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

I would also like to ask you something else. According to Yahweh's justice and judgment, do you think Abraham ate swine's flesh? KB

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg, my point was that Abraham was going to TEACH his children to do "justice and judgment." How do we know what justice and judgment is? This might help concerning the Sabbath:

Isa 56:1-2
(1) Thus saith Yahweh, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
(2) Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

We can see from Abrahams example, he was a man of justice and righteousness. He paid tribute to the Priest Melchizadek, he obeyed Gods direction in leaving the city of Ur and traveling to a distant land to live in tents, he fought for the lives of his nephew, he allowed his nephew to choose the best piece of land, he chose to find a wife for his son Isaac from among his family rather then a wife from the nations who did not know Jehovah.

He practised his righteousness in many ways. But no where in the accounts about his life do we hear any mention of the mosaic law. So all im saying is that the justice and judgements he practised were not those we find in the mosaic law.

I would also like to ask you something else. According to Yahweh's justice and judgment, do you think Abraham ate swine's flesh? KB

yes i think he very well could have eaten pig flesh. As a descendent of Noah, he would have known of the permission God had given to Noah, that he could eat from all the animals. There were no restrictions at that time. So Abraham could have eaten it if he wanted to. But he would not have offered it as a sacrifice...he would have chosen from the clean animals for that.

 

[Shermana]

you are speculated on something that is not found in scripture.

How could they 'forget' about the sabbath, yet 'remember' the circumcision?

You are making things up because you want to push the idea that the mosaic law is what Abraham practiced.....but there is absolutely no evidence for that idea. The only evidence we have is that 400 years after Abraham died, Moses was sent to the Israelites and given a new set of laws...some of which were so knew to them that they had no idea what to do with a person who broke one of them.

The biblical evidence doesnt lead to where you are suggesting.

And when I bring up that they didn't know what to do with someone who blasphemed, your argument is that it's something they were supposed to know about, in what is a blatant change of subject.

And I'm still waiting to hear about the issue of Paul and coveting.

 

[Ken Brown]

We can see from Abrahams example, he was a man of justice and righteousness. He paid tribute to the Priest Melchizadek, he obeyed Gods direction in leaving the city of Ur and traveling to a distant land to live in tents, he fought for the lives of his nephew, he allowed his nephew to choose the best piece of land, he chose to find a wife for his son Isaac from among his family rather then a wife from the nations who did not know Jehovah.

He practised his righteousness in many ways. But no where in the accounts about his life do we hear any mention of the mosaic law. So all im saying is that the justice and judgements he practised were not those we find in the mosaic law.

yes i think he very well could have eaten pig flesh. As a descendent of Noah, he would have known of the permission God had given to Noah, that he could eat from all the animals. There were no restrictions at that time. So Abraham could have eaten it if he wanted to. But he would not have offered it as a sacrifice...he would have chosen from the clean animals for that.

Hi Pegg, my point is that Abraham did keep Elohim's judgments and followed justice, as evidenced by this Scripture:

Gen 26:5
(5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And are you willing to state that the food laws and Sabbath were not part of the commandments, statutes, and laws that Abraham obeyed? I'm in agreement with you that the WHOLE Law of Moses was not given until the time of the Exodus, but many of the basic and fundamental judgments and charges were given to Abraham. The Sabbath was made BEFORE Abraham and it is a judgment that is forever:

Exo 31:13-17
(13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
(14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
(15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
(16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(17) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Why would not Abraham keep this sign? KB

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
This may be helpful in the coming discussion. What was it exactly that Abraham obeyed?:
Genesis 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham in the offering of Isaac obeyed the voice of YAHWEH:
Genesis 22:18
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
And Abraham obeyed any charge given to him by YAHWEH. A charge of ELOHIM is any duty given by ELOHIM which must be completed by those charged (see Numbers 3).
Commandments are those "laws dictated by the moral sense, e.g. against the crimes of robbery, bloodshed, etc." (Pentateuch And Haftorahs, J. H. Hertz, Snd Edition, page 95).
Statutes are those "laws ordained by God which we are to observe although reason cannot assign an explanation, e.g. the prohibition of swine's flesh". (Ibid)
Laws are "customs and traditional ordinances orally transmitted from generation to generation". (Ibid)
No where in the list of obedience by Abraham does it make mention that Abraham was made aware of or that he obeyed the whole Law. Some Jews claim this obedience for Abraham, but how do we know that this is nothing more than a Jewish myth?
I trust the Apostles of Yahushua like Paul and John and their testimony. John said this:
John 1:17
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Yahushua Messiah.
Abraham was not given everything that was given to Moses. Abraham was given the Promise, and the Law was added to the Promise by YAHWEH ELOHIM through the agency of Moses. If the Law was added to the Promise, as is taught by Paul in Galatians 3, then the Law came subsequent to Abraham who was given the Promise.
Included in the Law that was added to the Promise is the Sabbath commandment. Of course this commandment is according to the Voice of YAHWEH who thundered this commandment from Mt. Sinai. The Sabbath commandment is also part of the Testimony of YAHWEH ELOHIM, and this commandment is also a significant part of the duty (charge) of each individual. So, the Sabbath commandment is according to the Charge of YAHWEH ELOHIM. The Sabbath commandment is not itself a statute as defined by the Jews; nor can the Sabbath commandment be said to be a traditional observance as you have rightly argued on this thread.
So how is it that some claim that Abraham was given the Sabbath commandment? Did YAHWEH ELOHIM instruct Abraham to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy? Was the Sabbath commandment orally transmitted to Abraham from previous recipients? If so, why is there no mention of the Sabbath commandment prior to Moses?
These things must be answered (among others) before anyone can claim that Abraham was given the Sabbath commandment or that Abraham was required to observe the Sabbath according to the Commandment given by YAHWEH ELOHIM at Sinai.
I write to you these things to help clarify the argument that might very well develop on this thread.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr