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My Paidagogos (Galatians 3:24)

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Latuwr, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    Hi Latuwr, yes, maybe you are right about making adjustments in our lives.

    Bowing the knee? Hmm? I wonder what that means? Have you taken the time to look at H1288-barak? Please consider that the Law, our Paidagogos, has made the commandments to be both a blessing, and a cursing (Deu 30:19). The vast majority of the time that this word (H1288) is used, it refers to "blessing," but it also can refer to cursing:

    Job 1:5
    (5) And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed (H1288) Elohim in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

    How does the Law, our Paidagogos, in delivering or bringing us to Messiah, make the lost 10 tribes to be a blessing and a cursing (make the Camels H1288)? KB
     
  2. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    yes of course im familiar with them. Nelson Barbour did not believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christs blood...that is why Russell stopped associating with him. At that time, brother Russell was an editor of the magazine that Barbour produced. It wasnt the Watchtower, nor was Barbour a Bible Student or a Jehovahs Witness. So this was not a person who was part of the Watchtower Society...which was not established until several years later.


    I am going to give you the current JW teaching on the Ransom directly from our 'What Does The Bible Really Teach' booklet. This is the booklet we use to conduct our free home bible study course with...so it is being used world-wide and is printed in hundreds of different languages.

    [QUOTE='What Does The Bible Really Teach' Chp 5]
    WHAT IS THE RANSOM?
    3 Put simply, the ransom is Jehovah’s means to deliver, or save, humankind from sin and death. (Ephesians 1:7) To grasp the meaning of this Bible teaching, we need to think back to what happened in the garden of Eden. Only if we understand what Adam lost when he sinned can we appreciate why the ransom is such a valuable gift to us.

    4 When he created Adam, Jehovah gave him something truly precious—perfect human life. Consider what that meant for Adam. Made with a perfect body and mind, he would never get sick, grow old, or die. As a perfect human, he had a special relationship with Jehovah. The Bible says that Adam was a “son of God.” (Luke 3:38) So Adam enjoyed a close relationship with Jehovah God, like that of a son with a loving father. Jehovah communicated with his earthly son, giving Adam satisfying assignments of work and letting him know what was expected of him.—Genesis 1:28-30; 2:16,*17.

    5 Adam was made “in God’s image.” (Genesis 1:27) That did not mean that Adam resembled God in appearance. As we learned in Chapter*1 of this book, Jehovah is an invisible spirit. (John 4:24) So Jehovah does not have a body of flesh and blood. Being made in God’s image meant that Adam was created with qualities like those of God, including love, wisdom, justice, and power. Adam was like his Father in another important way in that he possessed free will. Hence, Adam was not like a machine that can perform only what it is designed or programmed to do. Instead, he could make personal decisions, choosing between right and wrong. If he had chosen to obey God, he would have lived forever in Paradise on earth.
    6 Clearly, then, when Adam disobeyed God and was condemned to death, he paid a very high price. His sin cost him his perfect human life with all its blessings. (Genesis 3:17-19) Sadly, Adam lost this precious life not only for himself but also for his future offspring. God’s Word says: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12) Yes, all of us have inherited sin from Adam. Hence, the Bible says that he “sold” himself and his offspring into slavery to sin and death. (Romans 7:14) There was no hope for Adam or Eve because they willfully chose to disobey God. But what about their offspring, including us?

    7 Jehovah came to mankind’s rescue by means of the ransom. What is a ransom? The idea of a ransom basically involves two things. First, a ransom is the price paid to bring about a release or to buy something back. It might be compared to the price paid for the release of a prisoner of war. Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something. It is similar to the price paid to cover the damages caused by an injury. For example, if a person causes an accident, he would have to pay an amount that fully corresponds to, or equals, the value of what was damaged.
    8 How would it be possible to cover the enormous loss that Adam inflicted on all of us and to release us from slavery to sin and death? Let us consider the ransom that Jehovah provided and what this can mean for you.

    HOW JEHOVAH PROVIDED THE RANSOM
    9 Since a perfect human life was lost, no imperfect human life could ever buy it back. (Psalm 49:7,*8) What was needed was a ransom equal in value to what was lost. This is in harmony with the principle of perfect justice found in God’s Word, which says: “Soul will be for soul.” (Deuteronomy 19:21) So, what would cover the value of the perfect human soul, or life, that Adam lost? Another perfect human life was the “corresponding ransom” that was required.—1*Timothy 2:6.

    10 How did Jehovah provide the ransom? He sent one of his perfect spirit sons to the earth. But Jehovah did not send just any spirit creature. He sent the one most precious to him, his only-begotten Son. (1*John 4:9,*10) Willingly, this Son left his heavenly home. (Philippians 2:7) As we learned in the preceding chapter of this book, Jehovah performed a miracle when he transferred the life of this Son to the womb of Mary. By means of God’s holy spirit, Jesus was born as a perfect human and was not under the penalty of sin.—Luke 1:35.

    11 How could one man serve as a ransom for many, in fact, millions of humans? Well, how did humans numbering into the millions come to be sinners in the first place? Recall that by sinning, Adam lost the precious possession of perfect human life. Hence, he could not pass it on to his offspring. Instead, he could pass on only sin and death. Jesus, whom the Bible calls “the last Adam,” had a perfect human life, and he never sinned. (1*Corinthians 15:45) In a sense, Jesus stepped into Adam’s place in order to save us. By sacrificing, or giving up, his perfect life in flawless obedience to God, Jesus paid the price for Adam’s sin. Jesus thus brought hope to Adam’s offspring.—Romans 5:19; 1*Corinthians 15:21,*22.

    12 The Bible describes in detail the suffering that Jesus endured before his death. He experienced harsh whipping, cruel impalement, and an agonizing death on a torture stake. (John 19:1, 16-18,*30; Appendix, pages*204-6) Why was it necessary for Jesus to suffer so much? In a later chapter of this book, we will see that Satan has questioned whether Jehovah has any human servants who would remain faithful under trial. By enduring faithfully in spite of great suffering, Jesus gave the best possible answer to Satan’s challenge. Jesus proved that a perfect man possessing free will could keep perfect integrity to God no matter what the Devil did. Jehovah must have rejoiced greatly over the faithfulness of his dear Son!—Proverbs 27:11.

    13 How was the ransom paid? On the 14th day of the Jewish month Nisan in 33*C.E., God allowed his perfect and sinless Son to be executed. Jesus thus sacrificed his perfect human life “once for all time.” (Hebrews 10:10) On the third day after Jesus died, Jehovah raised him back to spirit life. In heaven, Jesus presented to God the value of his perfect human life sacrificed as a ransom in exchange for Adam’s offspring. (Hebrews 9:24) Jehovah accepted the value of Jesus’ sacrifice as the ransom needed to deliver mankind from slavery to sin and death.—Romans 3:23,*24.


    [/quote]
     
  3. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    Hi Latuwr, I know your main objection to the 10 camels representing the 10 commandments is the fact that camels are unclean. Have you considered that the Word of Elohim rode on both an ***, and a white horse, and both of those animals are unclean. Or how about as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness, so the Son of Man was lifted up...isn't a serpent unclean, so how can it represent the Son of Man? I'm just trying to help you out here. KB
     
  4. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    Hi Pegg, who received the ransom payment? KB
     
  5. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Paul explains this in Hebrews chpater 9:

    9 For its part, then, the former [covenant] used to have ordinances of sacred service and [its] mundane holy place.... the priests enter the first tent [compartment] at all times to perform the sacred services; 7*but into the second [compartment] the high priest alone enters once a year, not without blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of ignorance of the people.
    8*Thus the holy spirit makes it plain that the way into the holy place had not yet been made manifest while the first tent was standing. ...

    11*However, when Christ came as a high priest ...12*he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us].


    When Christ entered the 'most holy', he offered his blood sacrifice to God in the same way that the high priest entered the most holy of the tabernacle and offered the blood to God on the alter. God accepted that blood sacrifice as the atonement for the sins of the entire nation.
    And this is exactly what God did when he received that ransom blood offered by Christ....he accepted that sacrifice as is proved by his acceptance of people of all nations and the pouring out of his holy spirit upon the unrighteous.
    Paul concludes by saying:

    24*For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. 25*Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own. ...28*so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many...
    5*Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6*You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin [offering].’ 7*Then I said, ‘Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” ...He does away with what is first that he may establish what is second. 10*By the said “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.



    And this really explains why the tabernacle and the priesthood and its sacrifices was no longer required after Christ had died. Those things were a mere 'representation' of the reality of Messiahs sacrifice. A sacrifice that God himself orchestrated for the purpose of saving all mankind from sin and death. It was only required 'once' for all time.
     
    #145 Pegg, Aug 19, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  6. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi Ken Brown,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    Thank you for the help. I did need your help because I looked up H1288 in Strong's and then looked for Barak (H1288) in both Deuteronomy 30:19 and in Isaiah 45:23, and I for some reason could not find Barak (H1288) in either scripture. So, I was scratching my head trying to figure out what you were saying or implying.
    Please allow me to restate my position. The Law, Our Paidagogos, is both a blessing (H1293) and a curse (H7045), see Deuteronomy 30:19. The Law is not a camel, and, therefore, the Law, which is the holy and pure Word of YAHWEH ELOHIM, does not bend the knee or bow down to itself. Camels, however, which are unclean, can bow down or bend the knee before the Law.
    This happened to me. I finally was forced to submit to the Law, My Paidagogos. I was forced to bend the knee before the Law. I was forced to repent of my Sabbath Breaking simply because the Law says:
    Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy!
    Later, I was baptized in order to comply with the final order of My Paidagogos, and you and I both know where water baptism is required by the Law.
    When you yourself submitted to be baptized, were you submitting to the directive of a camel, or were you submitting to a directive of the Law?
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
  7. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi Pegg,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    When I read your reply to me about the atoning sacrifice, I see where you quote a whole list of NT Scriptures. That is good, but the Gospel must be according to OT Scriptures, that is, if we are to understand the meaning of what the Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
    Paul preached My Messiah Yahushua from Old Testament Scriptures whenever he encountered his fellow Jews in the Diaspora. He did not have the NT Scriptures, and it would not have done him any good if would have had all the New Testament Scriptures which the JW'S have used in the article which you quoted to me. No one, either Jew or Gentile would have listened to him.
    Now, I know that this is hard to grasp, but the Gospel, which you have devoted your life to teach to the world, is not according to the OT Scriptures. Consider this alone. My Messiah referred to HIMSELF as the Son of the Man. It is without reservation written in the Law:
    Deuteronomy 24:16
    16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
    If My Messiah is the Son of the Man, then it is clear from this directive of our Paidagogos that our Messiah Yahushua could not die to pay any penalty which you or I may have before the Law. This is not according to justice. Actually, the whole idea of child sacrifice is absolutely forbidden by the Paidagogos. All sinners must die to pay for their own sin according to the Paidagogos.
    Mr. Balfour, according to his credit, in his denial of the atoning sacrifice, recognized that any teaching which promoted such a substitutional sacrifice was wholly "obnoxious". Do I need to quote what C.T. Russel and your own literature has to say about the position of Mr. Barbour against substitutional sacrifice?
    How do you know, Pegg, whether Mr. Russel or whether Mr. Barbour was correct in their teaching? I can only ask, how long will it be before you bend the knee to your Paidagogos?
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
  8. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Paul used the OT in his teachings...and he had them recorded for us that we could continue to learn from what he taught regarding the OT.

    To say that the NT is not the OT is like saying the books of the prophets are not the writings of Moses and therefore do not constitute Gods Word.

    The NT is the written teachings of the Apostles. Their teachings are the 'Explanation' of the OT writings .

    The expression 'son of man' was to designate that he was the “son of man” as referred to in the prophecy of Daniel 7:13,*14.

    *“I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14*And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

    So Jesus was confirming his identity as 'the' Messiah.

    And that is right, no sinful human can redeem another. Each of us die for the sins we personally committ.

    However, Jesus was not the son of any sinful man. He was the Holy Son of God as expressed in the book of Hebrews:

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2*has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things

    Jesus is a direct creation of God, he's not the seed of any man, therefore this scripture you quote does not apply to him.



    The scriptures themselves are what should be examined. Even Jesus himself declared the atonement sacrifice :

    Mark 10:45 “The Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom [Gr., ly′tron] in exchange for many.”

    I think we should take the word of Jesus as evidence over the word of a fallible, imperfect human, dont you?
     
    #148 Pegg, Aug 20, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  9. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    Hi Latuwr, I don't think you quite followed my logic. Let me explain further. First, I never said that Deuteronomy 30:19 and Isaiah 45:23 had H1288 (Barak) written in those two Scriptures. Now, I did quote a Scripture that did use H1288 and that was Job 1:5 where it is translated "cursed." The point I wanted you to see is that of the 319 times that H1288 is used in the OT, the vast majority of the time it is translated into a form of the word "bless." There are 7 occurrences of where it is translated in a form of the word "curse." And only 3 times is this Hebrew word translated in the form of the word "kneel." These quantities are from the NASB translation. And it should show you that the hidden meaning of the camels was that they were made by the Law to be a blessing and a cursing as H1288 shows.

    The Commandments, especially those which are spoken by the mouth of Elohim (the 1 to Adam and the 10 at Sinai), can be a blessing or a cursing, depending on one's obedience to them, as the Law, our Paidagogos has made them (Deu 30:19). This is what Gen 24:11 is stating (the commandments/camels are made by the Law to be both a blessing and a cursing), and upon these Commandments rest the treasures of Elohim.

    Wisdom speaks of herself in this manner:

    Pro 2:1
    (1) My son, if you will receive my words And treasure my commandments within you...

    And within Messiah, The Word, are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge that are carried by the commandments/camels.

    Col 2:3
    (3) in whom (The Word) are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Now, you did not address how The Word of Elohim can be carried by an unclean animal:

    Mat 21:5 (NASB)
    (5) "SAY TO THE DAUGHTER OF ZION, 'BEHOLD YOUR KING IS COMING TO YOU, GENTLE, AND MOUNTED ON A DONKEY, EVEN ON A COLT, THE FOAL OF A BEAST OF BURDEN.'"

    And for that matter, you did not address the decision of the Council of Acts 15, along with the Holy Spirit, to lay no greater burden upon the Gentiles than those four necessary commandments. Again, I ask, how could a commandment be a "burden?"

    KB
     
  10. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi Ken Brown,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    Honestly, I am just about ready to cry, uncle, and admit to you that the ten camels are the ten commandments, and then say to you, Ken Brown, where to we go from here?
    You know full well that I am extremely reluctant to enter into any discussion which divides the Law. Traditional Christians love to divide the Law so I am looking at your teaching about the Paidagogos and the Camels as another attempt to divide the Law.
    The Paidagogos leads us to Messiah Yahushua; the Camels do not. They have no idea where the Paidagogos is going, neither do they have any control over his guidance. They carry the treasure, but they are completely unaware of his purpose whatever that purpose might be.
    They do have a burden which they have to carry, but the Law is not their burden, and the Ten Commandments are not a burden as John testifies:
    1 John 5:3
    3 For this is the love of ELOHIM, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    So, the Camels carry a burden, and the burden is not the Law. What then, Ken Brown, is the nature of their burden? And please, if possible, do not ask me to consider again that their burden is hidden in the Ten Commandments. If so, then the Ten Commandments are burdensome.
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
  11. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Hi Latuwr,

    i havnt understood what you are talking about when you mentioned the 'camels'

    but now im starting to wonder if they are the 'oral laws' the oral traditions of men that caused the people in Jesus day to be weighed down...burdened.

    Jesus was clearly against the Oral laws of the religious teachers. These were laws created in addition to the mosaic law. And the religious teachers put their oral laws above the mosaic law which is why Jesus condemned them

    “Why is it you also overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition? .*.*. You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.” He applied God’s Word to them when it said: “It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.” (Matthew 15:1-6,*9)
    Never do we see Jesus quoting from, or teaching, the oral laws. He always promoted Gods Word above mans.

    Is that what the 'camel' is ?
     
  12. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi Pegg,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    You wrote:
    "To say that the NT is not the OT is like saying the books of the prophets are not the writings of Moses and therefore do not constitute Gods Word."
    I am not saying that the NT Scriptures are not ELOHIM'S word. What I am saying is simply this: Paul did not have the NT Scriptures which you yourself possess. When Paul wrote that the Gospel is according to the Scriptures, he was simply referring to Old Testament Scriptures, and Paul could take those Old Testament Scriptures and argue from them that My Messiah Yahushua was the Messiah. Look here:
    Acts 17:2-3
    2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
    3 Opening and alleging, that Messiah must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Yahushua, whom I preach unto you, is Messiah.
    Do JWS presently have this capability? If so, Pegg, please enlighten or convince me how it is that Messiah arose from the dead on the third day according to the Scriptures. Of course, if you youself were able to do so, then you would be giving me water, would you not? And right here is your denial:
    I dont claim to water you. Only God can do that.
    Pegg, Rebekah watered the camels. If I am a camel as I have confessed on this thread, please water me!
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
  13. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    yes that true and i agree with that. The christians were avid readers of the hebrew scriptures. You can see that in their own writings...the number of references they use to the OT is very large... if we took all their scriptural references out of the NT, there would be very little left.

    The 'gospel' means 'good news'

    The Christians were preaching a 'good news' which were according to the Hebrew scriptures. And that good news was that the long awaited Messiah had arrived. That was the 'gospel' they preached. And they used the Hebrew scriptures to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.


    I have absolutely no idea what you calling yourself a camel means. So i cant respond to that.

    But i can respond to you question as to whether we have the capability of reasoning from the scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah. Of course we can. We use the hebrew and greek scriptures to do that.
     
  14. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi Pegg,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    The Camels did bow the knee according to the command of the Paidagogos, and the Camels after bowing the knee awaited for the watering. They were watered by Rebekah. Does this watering have anything in symbol to do with the water of life as indicated right here:
    John 4:10
    10 Yahushua answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of ELOHIM, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
    If this giving is possible, then should we consider it impossible that the Chosen Ones in Messiah can also give to others the water of life?
    Accordingly, are you sure that only ELOHIM can give the water of life? Then, how is it that I, a camel, having received of the water of life, how is it that I can claim to give of that life to others?
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
  15. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    whether the account about Rebecca watering the camels of Abrahams servant is prophetic, im not sure. As far as im aware, their drinking would act as a sign to Abrahams servant that the women watering those camels is the wife chosen for Isaac.

    However, the hebrew scriptures do speak of the 'water of life/salvation'

    According to the scriptures, the Jews are not the source of this water because they get their 'water' from other sources (cisterns)
    Jeremiah 2:13 ‘because there are two bad things that my people have done: They have left even me, the source of living water, in order to hew out for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns, that cannot contain the water.’


    But God has promised that the source of Water will come out of Jerusalem - not from the Jews as a nation, but out of Jerusalem as a location
    Zechariah 14:8 And it must occur in that day [that] living waters will go forth from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. In summer and in winter it will occur.

    And if I were to put a face to those 'waters', it would be the face of Jesus who, from Jerusalem, declared himself to be the source of the water that gives life
    John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the festival, Jesus was standing up and he cried out, saying: “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.

    John 4:14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”

    John 6:35 Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all.


    Now tell me this Latuwr, is it the hebrew scriptures that give us the teachings (waters) of Christ Jesus? Or are his teachings found in the Gospel of the NT?
     
    #155 Pegg, Aug 21, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  16. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    His teachings are to obey the Torah, and they involve correcting misunderstandings of the Torah. I know it might be hard to believe that Jesus was teaching Torah and proper obedience to it and that you can't separate his teaching from the Torah, but that's just how it is. To say Jesus's teachings have nothing to do with the Old Testament is beyond ridiculous. Why do you suppose anyone would have even accepted Jesus as the Messiah in the first place?
     
  17. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    did Jesus tell us to keep sacrificing at the Temple?

    Tithes to the priesthood are a requirement under the law...Did Jesus demand the payment of tithes?

    Did Jesus ask us to be followers of Moses, or himself?


    God may have required obedience to the mosaic law covenant from the Israelites, but he certainly did not require it of anyone else...ever.

    So to claim that all mankind are to observe the law of Moses is really going against Jesus.
     
  18. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    #158 Shermana, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  19. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi Pegg,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    You asked:
    "Now tell me this Latuwr, is it the hebrew scriptures that give us the teachings (waters) of Christ Jesus?"
    Absolutely, yes! Listen to what My Messiah Yahushua has to say about this issue:
    John 12:49
    49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
    I know, Pegg, that you would agree that the Words of the Old Testament are from the Father of us all, and, therefore, you should be able to see that the teachings of My Messiah Yahushua are in complete agreement with the teaching of our Father. My Messiah Yahushua received HIS doctrine from all the Words of our Heavenly Father. Everything that Messiah taught is found in the writings of the Old Testament Scriptures, but here is the problem for Christians like yourself: You falsely imagine that Messiah Yahushua came with a teaching that is greater or a teaching that overrides the teaching of our Heavenly Father in the Old Testament. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    Consider the Living Waters. Please check out your translation of Jeremiah 2:13. Also check out Jeremiah 17:13. You, that is, JWS, in your translation call the Hebrew word there: Living.
    Now, please turn to Numbers 19:17 and look for the same Hebrew word, and see how the JW translators have translated the Word of YAHWEH. They translate the same Hebrew word as "running".
    Now, the question which I have for you is simply this: If "living" water by the command of YAHWEH ELOHIM is to be sprinkled upon the unclean, that is, you and me, why do the JW translators want to call living water, running water?
    The Old Testament Scriptures openly teach that the Servant of YAHWEH will sprinkle many nations:
    Isaiah 52:15
    15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
    How about that, Pegg? You right now are not able to hear me from my writing to you through the written word, and no one else has told you about these things; otherwise, you would have already understood that it is written that camels should be sprinkled or watered with the living word.
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
  20. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi Pegg,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    Shabbat Shalom!
    I run the risk here of making my last post to you as something that is thrown away by adding this post to that post. You wrote:
    "Never do we see Jesus quoting from, or teaching, the oral laws. He always promoted Gods Word above mans."
    Your statement is not totally true. My Messiah was required by the Law to uphold the decisions and rulings of the Leaders of Israel (see Deuteronomy 17:10-11). This requirement shows that My Messiah Yahushua was not against all Oral Law. My Messiah Yahushua only spoke out against any Oral Teaching or commandment which went against any original intent or teaching of the Law.
    Consider eating with unwashed hands. Hand washing was required by the Rabbis before one should eat. My Messiah did not make HIS Disciples follow that Oral Tradition because My Messiah knew in a spiritual sense that HIS Disciples were not yet eating. How so?
    My Messiah clearly teaches that eating in a spiritual sense is a doing or work. Look at this:
    John 4:34
    34 Yahushua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
    So, if we should look around can we find any instance where Yahushua did wash HIS Hands in a physical sense before HE did consume the food or work that YAHWEH ELOHIM had set before HIM? Let's look here:
    John 13:3-5
    3 Yahushua knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from ELOHIM, and went to ELOHIM;
    4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
    5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
    So, you should be able to see, Pegg, that My Messiah did wash HIS Hands before HE accomplished the will of HIS Father; therefore, it can be said that My Messiah supports the washing of hands before one eats. How about that? Is that not a real surprise?
    Open you eyes, Pegg, to the spiritual behind the Scriptures. I am curious, do JWS ever wash hands and feet? If not, why not? If so, when?
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
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