My Paidagogos (Galatians 3:24)

[Shermana]

were they supposed to keep offering sacrifices as required by the law?

Apparently not since they weren't able to.

 

[Pegg]

Apparently not since they weren't able to.

so lets look at the chain of events:

God establishes a law covenant with Moses

He institutes a priesthood to oversee that covenant and its ordinances & festivals/sacrifices/judgements ect

Then sometime later allows the priesthood to disappear....


Who is overseeing all the ordinances of the covenant now? You? Did God suddenly grant authority to individual jews to oversee the covenant and all its ordinances? And if you are not fulfilling ALL of the law covenant then you are not fulfilling the law covenant. In Isreals time, if someone failed to fulfill one law of the covenant, they were required to make atonement.... you need to make atonement every day because you cannot fulfill the law covenant as laid out by Moses.


Does it seem reasonable to you that God would allow this situation to occur if he really wanted the law covenant to be carried out?

 

[Shermana]

Does it seem reasonable that men are now allowed to have carnal relations with their wives while they're having their menstrual cycles?

Does it seem reasonable that we're now allowed to charge interest on each other for loans?

We are still to do what we are able to do.

Who did he give authority to to say that we aren't supposed to anymore? Anyone who says to actively break the Law is a false prophet or teacher.

 

[Pegg]

Does it seem reasonable that men are now allowed to have carnal relations with their wives while they're having their menstrual cycles?

Does it seem reasonable that we're now allowed to charge interest on each other for loans?

We are still to do what we are able to do.

Who did he give authority to to say that we aren't supposed to anymore? Anyone who says to actively break the Law is a false prophet or teacher.

Gods laws on morality stood before mosaic law was given....people were living by Gods laws without the mosaic law. Job was a good example, Joseph also expressed knowledge of Gods moral laws while in the land of Egypt before the mosaic law was given


so we dont need the mosaic law to know right from wrong...that is inbuilt in us just as it was in Adam and Eve.

 

[Shermana]

Not having relations with your wife during her Menstrual cycle is a morality law?

You're saying the average person automatically knows not to do this?

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You made this guess:
"My guess is that you have never offered the animal sacrifices required by the mosaic law. How do you justify that before God?"
It is not possible, or, at the very least, it is very remotely possible to be justified before ELOHIM through works of the Law because it is through the Law that we also acquire a knowledge of our sin. Under the Law, this knowledge of sin requires that I bring and sacrifice various offerings if my sin was not intentional. The very existence of these requirements is based upon the assumption that I will sin; therefore, I always have something before me that I must accomplish.

agreed. And when Adam Sinned, what was the consequence to him?

Gen 3:19*In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

The consequence for sin is death. So if the mosaic law only highlights your sins, then the mosaic law can only ever lead to death. You can never be justified by the mosaic law... its not designed to justify sin but rather the highlight sin and condemn the sinner to death. If you cannot keep the law perfectly, then it works to convict us as transgressors as Paul said: “Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them,” (Gal. 3:10)

The mosiac law teaches us a great lesson....no matter how great our effort is we cannot keep Gods law perfectly.

So how can this situation be changed so that we can stopped being condemned to death? There is only one solution for us.

It is not through the attempted keeping of that law that one can be justified before God, rather it is only through faith in Christ’s atoning sacrifice that real relief & freedom from condemnation can come. Christ was the one man who kept the Law in all its parts, perfectly. He fulfilled the whole Law and therefore was used in the abolition of it.

Paul explained this in Ephesians 2:15 "*By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16*and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17*And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18*because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit

No man can be exempt from condemnation except by exercising faith in Jesus atoning sacrifice. If we approach God through the sacrifice offered by Christ, God will not condemn us to death. And this is why it is pointless to continue to try and atone for oneself by means of the mosaic law....it cannot save us.

This justification through works of the Law is very temporary, and it it only valid until the time comes around that I must offer my next animal sacrifice.
There does exist an alternate way to be justified before ELOHIM, but this justification cannot apply to you and other witnesses because you maintain that you have never been under the Law and, therefore, you have no need to fulfill the Law and thereby receive justification. My justification through the faith of My Messiah Yahushua is based upon my belief that I have fulfilled the requirements of the Law through HIM. I stand before ELOHIM justified because I have accomplished for all time everything required of me by the Law.
Does any of this make any sense to you?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

i totally understand this and this is the very reason why we no longer require the mosaic law to be justified as I explained above.

but for some reason, which i dont understand, you still think that you have to abide by certain dietary rules of the mosaic law. I dont know why you would need to do that. If Jesus sacrifice truly atones, and you really believe that, then what you eat should not affect your relationship with God.

 

[Pegg]

Not having relations with your wife during her Menstrual cycle is a morality law?

You're saying the average person automatically knows not to do this?

if it harms your wife, yes, it is a morality law.

You should not do anything which harms another person. And you dont need to be a follower of the mosaic law to know that.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Thank you for your response. There are many things that I would like to comment about, but one can only do so much in one post.
You wrote:
"It is not through the attempted keeping of that law that one can be justified before God, rather it is only through faith in Christ’s atoning sacrifice that real relief & freedom from condemnation can come."
Listen to yourself! Why in all the world do you believe in sacrifice? Why do you believe in atonement? Why do you believe in redemption? Why do you believe in purification? All of these are functions required by the Law, and since you have never been under the Law, why do you believe that these functions of the Law and their fulfillment apply to you and your fellow witnesses? How is it that you can claim to fall under any of them or in any way profit from them if you yourself have never been under the Law?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Thank you for your response. There are many things that I would like to comment about, but one can only do so much in one post.
You wrote:
"It is not through the attempted keeping of that law that one can be justified before God, rather it is only through faith in Christ’s atoning sacrifice that real relief & freedom from condemnation can come."
Listen to yourself! Why in all the world do you believe in sacrifice? Why do you believe in atonement? Why do you believe in redemption? Why do you believe in purification? All of these are functions required by the Law, and since you have never been under the Law, why do you believe that these functions of the Law and their fulfillment apply to you and your fellow witnesses? How is it that you can claim to fall under any of them or in any way profit from them if you yourself have never been under the Law?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Laturwr, the law teaches us that atonement for sin is needed. The fact that God made provision for animal sacrifices proves that the person who sins must pay with blood/life to attain atonement.

Yet even the mosaic law system could not 'completely' and 'wholly' atone for the sins of people...thats why they had to keep coming back again and again offering more and more sacrifices. The blood of animals could never really atone for human sin. So if you stick with the mosaic law, you can never have sin and death removed from you. You need something more valuable then the blood of animals. You need a perfect human sacrifice.

And that is the sacrifice God provided by means of Christ Jesus.


If you want complete atonement and salvation, you get it by following Jesus, not moses.

 

[Shermana]

if it harms your wife, yes, it is a morality law.

You should not do anything which harms another person. And you dont need to be a follower of the mosaic law to know that.

So people worldwide have an inner knowing that you should not have carnal relations while your wife is menstruating, and they should automatically know it harms her. Got it.

And may I ask if the Watchtower officially discourages carnal relations during this time?

 

[Pegg]

So people worldwide have an inner knowing that you should not have carnal relations while your wife is menstruating, and they should automatically know it harms her. Got it.

yes absolutely. Women know of the discomfort, sometimes pain and suffering, the menstruation causes.

do you show consideration for yourself when you are ill or in pain? Im sure you do. Why would anyone not show consideration for another person who may be suffering with some physical ailment?

And may I ask if the Watchtower officially discourages carnal relations during this time?

yes, it does because christian men are advised to dwell with their wives 'according to knowledge'

Showing consideration for ones wife is to 'love her as you love yourself'

 

[Shermana]

So what if a woman doesn't mind it?

I've heard that quite a few get quite.....in the mood during that time.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
It seems to me, and please tell me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you unintentionally admitted that the Law does teach you. Example from your words:
"The mosiac law teaches us a great lesson"
And again:
"Laturwr, the law teaches us that atonement for sin is needed."
Notice the "us" in your statements. This thread was started to establish the fact that the Law does lead us into Messiah Yahushua. Up till now, you have consistently denied that the Law leads you and other witnesses anywhere; yet, you are forced to admit all over the place the Law holds all the cards which you or no one else can possibly trump.
Consider this scripture:
Psalms 19:7
7 The law of YAHWEH is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of YAHWEH is sure, making wise the simple.
The Testimony of YAHWEH is the ten words spoken and written by the hand of YAHWEH. I know that you like some of them, but not all of them. Why don't you approve and support of all of them, Pegg?
The Law is also an important part of the word of YAHWEH ELOHIM. Consider this scripture:
Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of ELOHIM is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
As far as the twoedged sword goes, the Law is twoedged. It is both physical and spiritual as you have already agreed. So, Pegg, you are actually fighting against a twoedged sword, that is, your Paidagogos, and I am going to witness to you right now that you are not quicker, nor more powerful, nor more sharper than your Paidagogos.
How about it, Pegg, is the Law itself a significant part of the word of ELOHIM to which you have in the past listened and must now also listen?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Pegg]

So what if a woman doesn't mind it?

I've heard that quite a few get quite.....in the mood during that time.

lots of people like to smoke too... it doesnt mean it is good for you.

 

[Shermana]

lots of people like to smoke too... it doesnt mean it is good for you.

Did you forget what you were talking about? You said this was one of those things that people are supposed to naturally know about like not murdering or stealing or blaspheming.

Yet this is not whatsoever a worldwide custom.

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
It seems to me, and please tell me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you unintentionally admitted that the Law does teach you. Example from your words:
"The mosiac law teaches us a great lesson"
And again:
"Laturwr, the law teaches us that atonement for sin is needed."
Notice the "us" in your statements. This thread was started to establish the fact that the Law does lead us into Messiah Yahushua. Up till now, you have consistently denied that the Law leads you and other witnesses anywhere; yet, you are forced to admit all over the place the Law holds all the cards which you or no one else can possibly trump.

Luturwr,
The law was given to lead Israel to the Messiah. Once the Messiah had arrived, the Jews could have used the law to help them identify who he was. Jesus fulfilled all requirements of the law and he arrived at the correct time as prophesied by Daniel.

So once the Messiah had arrived and been identified, of what need would there be for anyone after that time to use the mosaic law to identify him?

The messiah was identified and a had many followers proclaiming his message and his instructions.
The gentiles didnt need the mosaic law to know who the Christ was because the followers of Jesus were able to inform them. And the gentiles came to Jesus, not through knowledge of the mosaic law....but through faith in what God was proclaiming and promising.

How about it, Pegg, is the Law itself a significant part of the word of ELOHIM to which you have in the past listened and must now also listen?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

what is more significant is the new covenant instituted by the Messiah.

Jeremiah 31:31*“Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32*not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”
33*“For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”


We learn to become members of the new covenant through Jesus, not moses.

 

[Pegg]

Did you forget what you were talking about? You said this was one of those things that people are supposed to naturally know about like not murdering or stealing or blaspheming.

Yet this is not whatsoever a worldwide custom.

when you are ill with a fever, do you call in work and ask for the day off?

Does employer expect their employees to come to work when they are ill? If we know this basic principle in regards to our own welfare, why cant you naturally apply it to women? Is it because of men are simply indifferent to the physical needs of women?

Perhaps some men have taken liberty for a long time, but that doesnt mean they would ignore their own physical needs and if they know how to care for themselves when they are unwell, then there is no excuse for being indifferent when a woman is unwell. And if they are indifferent, then it comes down to pure selfishness and lack of love.

 

[Shermana]

So you're saying from the dawn of time, men have known that just as murder is bad and theft is wrong, that it's harmful to engage in marital relations when a woman is on her time?
Does this apply to those married/cohabiting with women who are at their most "in the mood" during this time? How exactly is it harmful to her? Do you have medical evidence that says carnal relations during the period is bad for her health? What if the woman wants it during that time? Is he supposed to automatically know to say no?

Sorry but I ain't exactly buying the logic that men are supposed to automatically know that it's wrong. Finding it gross and icky? Perhaps. In fact, I'd say so. Finding it morally wrong and knowing it's harming the woman, especially if she asks for it during that time? Not necessarily. Maybe we Jews do. I get the same sort of "bad feeling" from the thought of it as I would from eating pork. But do others? I don't think so.

And how about coveting? Do you think we automatically know it's wrong to not Covet?

Even Paul says he had to learn it was a sin!

 

[Pegg]

why must absolutely everything be spelled out? If someone is not feeling well, why must there be a written law stating that you need to be considerate toward them? If your child is sick, do you send it to school anyway?
If your donkey has a sore leg, do you load it up and make it work anyway?

If basic considerations need to be made into a law before people will practice them, something is very wrong.

 

[Shermana]

You're the one saying that it's as natural as knowing not to murder.

Let me repeat that part about Paul for you.

Paul needed it spelled out for him.

There goes your logic. Out the window. Bye bye. Curteousy of Paul.