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My Paidagogos (Galatians 3:24)

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Shermana,
Genesis 31 relates the account about Rachael and the teraphim. She stole her fathers teraphim and hid it, he was frantically searching for it. The account explains:

gen 31:34*Now Rachel had taken the teraphim, and she resorted to putting them in the woman’s saddle basket of the camel, and she kept sitting upon them. So La′ban went feeling through the whole tent, but did not find them. 35*Then she said to her father: “Do not let anger gleam in the eyes of my lord, because I am not able to get up before you, for the customary thing with women is upon me.” So he searched on carefully, but did not find the teraphim.


this account shows that before the mosaic law was given, men were quite aware of the menstural cycle of women and they gave them special consideration during such times. Laban did not force Racheal to get up from where she was sitting, he search around her but allowed her to stay where she was.

what does that tell you about knowledge and understanding that men in ancient times had of women and the menstrual cycle?
 

Shermana

Heretic
So a woman not being able to get up on a horse or camel because of her flow relates to automatically knowing that they can't have sex with her.

Interesting logic.

So how do you tell what parts of the Mosaic Law weren't proscribed as the "judgments, statutes and ordinances" Abraham obeyed exactly?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
So a woman not being able to get up on a horse or camel because of her flow relates to automatically knowing that they can't have sex with her.

if the man has any moral sense, yes.


So how do you tell what parts of the Mosaic Law weren't proscribed as the "judgments, statutes and ordinances" Abraham obeyed exactly?

Abraham was a righteous man.... to be righteous implies to do what is right.

If something causes another person pain or harm, can it be said to be right?
 

Shermana

Heretic
if the man has any moral sense, yes.

So if she wants it, a man's natural moral sense is to say no?

Is it moral sense for a woman to not grab a man by his goolies if he's assaulting her husband?

Was it also moral sense to not Covet? Or did Paul lack this moral sense?


Abraham was a righteous man.... to be righteous implies to do what is right.

So how are you determining what is right and what's not right? How do you know obeying Sabbath isn't what's right? How do you know not eating blood isn't right?

How do you know Abraham wasn't given the same "Statutes, judgments, and ordinances" as Moses received later?


If something causes another person pain or harm, can it be said to be right?

So nothing victimless like disobeying Sabbath was not right?
 

Latuwr

Member
Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
You wrote:
"So once the Messiah had arrived and been identified, of what need would there be for anyone after that time to use the mosaic law to identify him?"
The Apostle Paul used the Law over and over again in an effort to convince his fellow Jews that Yahushua was the Messiah (This scripture shows the MO of Paul, see Acts 17:1-3) . Paul always argued and taught about Yahushua from the scriptures, and Paul details in Galatians 3:19 exactly why YAHWEH added the Law to the Promise given to Abraham.
The Law was added to the Promise in order to make the Seed of Abraham stand out like a sore thumb. The Law did this by giving to the Children of Israel, and through them, the whole world, a grace of transgressions. In other words, the Law made everyone a sinner (this includes you, Pegg), and it is impossible that sinners can claim to be the Seed of Abraham. Abraham did everything commanded, so the Seed must also do everything commanded. Like father, like son! It is not understood by many that the Law serves the Promise in this manner.
In Romans 5:20, Paul specifically says that the Law entered the picture so that the Offence of Adam might abound. In other words, the Law was given so that each of us would be given the same opportunity as Adam to deliberately sin.
It is utterly amazing to me how this actually works in our favor. The Paidagogos gives each of us instructions. Some we keep, some we disobey. Take the Sabbath Day for instance. Witnesses like yourself deliberately refuse to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. So, Witnesses are no different from Adam. Now, like Adam, you get the opportunity to die for your own sin. There is no way to get around it. You are going to die unless, of course, you should change you mind, repent of your disobedience and begin to obey your Paidagogos.
The Paidagogos is actually a big help here. The Paidagogos has a secret weapon. Let's call it the command to bring sacrifice. There was a time in my life where I indeed sought to sacrifice, but the more I looked into the process, and the more I learned, the more I began to realize that there is no opportunity to bring physical sacrifices. It is not presently possible. So, what can one do?
After many struggles seeking to understand Paul, a light bulb come on, and I realized that I had unknowingly been sacrificing my whole life. I began to understand that Yahushua was my sacrifice whom I did slay through my sin. In other words, Pegg, I saw that YAHWEH ELOHIM through the work of My Messiah Yahushua have given me a tremendous gift of obedience to the Paidagogos, obedience that I had no idea that I was receiving through all my disobedience.
Now, the question becomes simply this: Why would YAHWEH ELOHIM give me a tremendous gift of obedience to the Paidagogos? Is this gift of righteousness given so that I can continue in my disobedience to the Paidagogos?
Do you think that was YAHWEH'S purpose?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
You wrote:
"So once the Messiah had arrived and been identified, of what need would there be for anyone after that time to use the mosaic law to identify him?"
The Apostle Paul used the Law over and over again in an effort to convince his fellow Jews that Yahushua was the Messiah (This scripture shows the MO of Paul, see Acts 17:1-3) . Paul always argued and taught about Yahushua from the scriptures, and Paul details in Galatians 3:19 exactly why YAHWEH added the Law to the Promise given to Abraham.

Yes sure. And we still use the Hebrew scriptures today to help people reason on the facts. But that doesnt mean we need to follow Moses as our leader. Moses informed the Isrealites that when the promised one arrived, even they would have to start listening to his voice and following him;

Deut 18:15*A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you—to him YOU people should listen

What do you think it means to listen to Jesus? Moses wrote a law for people to follow until the Messiah came... when the Messiah came, new instructions would be given as Jeremiah foretold and a new covenant would be established.

Do you know what that new covenant entails? If you are a follower of Jesus, you must surely know what the new covenant is because Jesus instituted it the night before he died.



The Law was added to the Promise in order to make the Seed of Abraham stand out like a sore thumb. The Law did this by giving to the Children of Israel, and through them, the whole world, a grace of transgressions. In other words, the Law made everyone a sinner (this includes you, Pegg), and it is impossible that sinners can claim to be the Seed of Abraham. Abraham did everything commanded, so the Seed must also do everything commanded. Like father, like son! It is not understood by many that the Law serves the Promise in this manner.
In Romans 5:20, Paul specifically says that the Law entered the picture so that the Offence of Adam might abound. In other words, the Law was given so that each of us would be given the same opportunity as Adam to deliberately sin.
It is utterly amazing to me how this actually works in our favor. The Paidagogos gives each of us instructions. Some we keep, some we disobey. Take the Sabbath Day for instance. Witnesses like yourself deliberately refuse to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. So, Witnesses are no different from Adam. Now, like Adam, you get the opportunity to die for your own sin. There is no way to get around it. You are going to die unless, of course, you should change you mind, repent of your disobedience and begin to obey your Paidagogos.

You know, for the child to benefit from the teacher, he must let go of the hand of the Paidagogos.
When you take your child to school, do you keep holding his hand at the gate, or do you let go of his hand and allow him to go to the teachers?


Jesus is the teacher, not the Paidagogos.


Now, the question becomes simply this: Why would YAHWEH ELOHIM give me a tremendous gift of obedience to the Paidagogos? Is this gift of righteousness given so that I can continue in my disobedience to the Paidagogos?
Do you think that was YAHWEH'S purpose?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

the mosaic law does not make one righteous though. If it could make you righteous before God, then there would be no need for the Messiah.

Think about Abraham. He was righteous, but he did not have the law of Moses.

So the law of Moses is not what makes a person righteous.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
If the scriptures were not myth/ fables, would there be any disagreements about the interpretations of them?
 

Latuwr

Member
Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote:
"So the law of Moses is not what makes. a person righteous."
No where did I say that the Law of Moses, that is, our Paidagogos, makes a person righteous. I would right now call your attention to the Apostle Paul's bottom line statement about righteousness:
Romans 2:13
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before ELOHIM, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
I would exhort you to keep Paul's statement in mind whenever you write or think about justification. There is absolutely no way to be declared righteous or just without keeping the Law in some fashion. Please allow me to repeat that statement. There is absolutely no way to be declared righteous or just without keeping the Law in same fashion. Paul did not believe that anyone could be justified or declared righteous through just hearing the Law, and Paul did not believe that anyone could be declared righteous through completing works of the Law, that is, through any physical doing of the Law, but Paul was a firm believer in the spiritual fulfillment of the Law that each of us can posses through faith in the work of My Messiah Yahushua.
Consider this: The Law commands the sacrifice of a Passover Lamb. Believers understand that Yahushua is our spiritual Passover Lamb. If we admit that we have sacrificed HIM, then we have fulfilled our obligation under the Law to sacrifice a Passover Lamb, and therefore we possess the righteousness that come through doing or completing what the Law has commanded. We become doers of the Law through our faith in the the work of Messiah Yahushua, and thereby we are justified!
Pegg, is Yahushua your Passover Lamb?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote:
"So the law of Moses is not what makes. a person righteous."
No where did I say that the Law of Moses, that is, our Paidagogos, makes a person righteous. I would right now call your attention to the Apostle Paul's bottom line statement about righteousness:
Romans 2:13
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before ELOHIM, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I would exhort you to keep Paul's statement in mind whenever you write or think about justification. There is absolutely no way to be declared righteous or just without keeping the Law in some fashion. Please allow me to repeat that statement. There is absolutely no way to be declared righteous or just without keeping the Law in same fashion. Paul did not believe that anyone could be justified or declared righteous through just hearing the Law, and Paul did not believe that anyone could be declared righteous through completing works of the Law, that is, through any physical doing of the Law, but Paul was a firm believer in the spiritual fulfillment of the Law that each of us can posses through faith in the work of My Messiah Yahushua.

completely agreed. Faith in Chirst is the mark of righteousness right now.

So why do you feel the need to keep some of those ceremonial aspects of the law?



Pegg, is Yahushua your Passover Lamb?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr


He most certainly is. ;)

And that is why I do not need to be a follower of the mosaic law and its rites, rituals, festivals, legal systems, justice system.... Christ is my Teacher and by following his example, we can not only have a righteous standing before God, but we can fulfill the laws requirements (perhaps not perfectly, but we are striving toward that end)


Btw, I'm still interested in your view of the New Covenant that Jesus instituted with his apostles. Do you believe that it is the new covenant as prophesied by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31:31?
 

Latuwr

Member
Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You asked:
Btw, I'm still interested in your view of the New Covenant that Jesus instituted with his apostles. Do you believe that it is the new covenant as prophesied by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31:31?
I sure do. Please allow me to recite several verses which do follow verse 31:
Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith YAHWEH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YAHWEH:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YAHWEH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their ELOHIM, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YAHWEH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YAHWEH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Notice that the New Covenant places the Law of YAHWEH (this Law includes the Law of Moses) within the people of that covenant, and notice also that HIS Law is written upon their hearts and not just upon tables of stone.
This is in accord with what is foretold by YAHWEH through the Prophet Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 36:24-27
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
I myself am of the House of Israel, and I have been gathered by YAHWEH unto My Messiah Yahushua, who is the Promised Land. Being gathered, I like Abraham was required to get up out of my former father's land, the kingdom of HaSatan and go to My Messiah Yahushua according to the instruction of My Paidagogos, my guide into Messiah Yahushua!
Having been guided to Messiah by the Law of YAHWEH, should I now turn my back on that Law? ELOHIM forbid! How can I deny the very Law which has guided me to My Messiah Yahushua?
You have stated with a wink, Pegg, that Yahushua is your Passover Lamb. The Law of YAHWEH requires that the Passover Lamb be slain by the Children of Israel:
Exodus 12:6
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
If Yahushua is your lamb as you have confessed, how exactly did you kill HIM?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I myself am of the House of Israel, and I have been gathered by YAHWEH unto My Messiah Yahushua, who is the Promised Land. Being gathered, I like Abraham was required to get up out of my former father's land, the kingdom of HaSatan and go to My Messiah Yahushua according to the instruction of My Paidagogos, my guide into Messiah Yahushua!
Having been guided to Messiah by the Law of YAHWEH, should I now turn my back on that Law?

if you can't fulfill all of the mosaic law, you already have been counted worthy of death according to that law.

What do you think Jesus meant when he said "come to me and i will refresh you"

If you cling to a covenant which you cannot fulfill, you have not learned anything from the blessing of the Messiah.

Colossians 2:13*Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14*and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.

The new covenant is not like the old covenant...Jeremiah foretold that the new covenant would be different.

Christ implemented a new covenant and he implemented a new law along with that covenant. The mosaic law does not lead you to the new covenant, it leads you to the Christ.... and when you reach the christ, you will know that you certainly CAN let go of the hand of the Paidogogos and reach out for the hand of Christ.

But you will never reach out for the hand of Christ if you continue to hold onto the Paidogogos.


ELOHIM forbid! How can I deny the very Law which has guided me to My Messiah Yahushua?

You dont have to deny the law. None of us deny that law. We completely acknowledge that the law is good and righteous. But it also highlights our sins and condemns us to death.

If you want to be confined in a yolk of slavery to sin and death, that is your perogrative. However, Christ leads us back to God through the expression of love. There is nothing more perfect then love because God IS Love.

If you practice love as the motivating force for all you do, you dont need the mosaic law because you will have fulfilled the law in its entirety.
And as Paul says at Galatians 5:22*On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love... Against such things there is no law.


You have stated with a wink, Pegg, that Yahushua is your Passover Lamb. The Law of YAHWEH requires that the Passover Lamb be slain by the Children of Israel:
Exodus 12:6
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
If Yahushua is your lamb as you have confessed, how exactly did you kill HIM?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

well i didnt kill him, but I certainly have faith that the value of his sacrifice covers my sins and I know God is granting us forgiveness through, not the mosaic law, but through Jesus Christ.
 

Latuwr

Member
Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You asked of me?:
What do you think Jesus meant when he said "come to me and i will refresh you"
It is my understanding that ELOHIM created man a living soul, and through sin, man became a dead soul (see Ezekiel 18:4). Accordingly, all men are deeply burdened by their inability to continue to live and not die. We are all required to pay the price for our rebellion, and, as the Apostle Paul teaches, that price is physical death (Romans 6:23).
If you should take the time to examine Ezekiel 18, you will discover that through repentance, a dead soul can become a living soul again, that is, if YAHWEH ELOHIM is to be believed:
Ezekiel 18:21-23
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith ADONAI YAHWEH: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:27-28
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
How many witnesses believe YAHWEH right here? Do you yourself, Pegg, believe that your dead soul can be refreshed so that you will continue to live and not suffer physical death?
If so, then we are in agreement concerning what My Messiah Yahushua meant by offering refreshment to dead souls.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You asked of me?:
What do you think Jesus meant when he said "come to me and i will refresh you"
It is my understanding that ELOHIM created man a living soul, and through sin, man became a dead soul (see Ezekiel 18:4).


the hebrew word for soul is ne′phesh נֶפֶשׁ
According to H.*M. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College, he says: ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.”—The New York Times, October 12, 1962.

So when Ezekiel says "the soul (the living person) that is sinning, it itself will die" he means that death will come to be upon every soul (living person) who sins.

So there are no 'dead' souls. Thats impossible according to the hebrew language because the 'soul' is a living breathing person. Someone who is alive is a 'soul'

Only when you die physically do you become a dead soul.


Accordingly, all men are deeply burdened by their inability to continue to live and not die. We are all required to pay the price for our rebellion, and, as the Apostle Paul teaches, that price is physical death (Romans 6:23).
If you should take the time to examine Ezekiel 18, you will discover that through repentance, a dead soul can become a living soul again, that is, if YAHWEH ELOHIM is to be believed:
Ezekiel 18:21-23
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith ADONAI YAHWEH: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:27-28
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

These scriptures can only be referring to the resurrection day. Only at that time will people who obey God live and keep living. We still live in a world where all people are dying...so no one is obeying God perfectly in this world. Sin still exists.

And if you are still unsure about that, ask yourself why the patriachs died, why did Gods faithful servants die regardless of their faith and obedience to the law? Why did Noah die even though he was the only righteous man on earth at the time?

The soul is not dead until it is physically dead. Until we physically die, we are walking and talking living souls.



How many witnesses believe YAHWEH right here? Do you yourself, Pegg, believe that your dead soul can be refreshed so that you will continue to live and not suffer physical death?
If so, then we are in agreement concerning what My Messiah Yahushua meant by offering refreshment to dead souls.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

During the resurrection i believe so, yes. But until Christs Millennial reign begins, we will continue to die for our sins. No one is perfect, no one does not sin.
 

Latuwr

Member
Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote:
"Only when you die physically do you become a dead soul."
Formerly, I believed exactly as you believe concerning the nature of a soul, but I was forced to alter my thinking somewhat. Consider this saying of Yahushua:
Matthew 8:22
22 But Yahushua said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
The resurrected Messiah Yahushua right now has dominion over both Living and Dead:
Romans 14:9
9 For to this end Messiah both died, and rose, and revived, that he might have dominion over both dead and living.
Both states exist presently in the world. Have you ever wondered how Messiah could make this statement about Abraham and the Fathers:
Luke 20:37-38
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth YAHWEH the ELOHIM of Abraham, and the ELOHIM of Isaac, and the ELOHIM of Jacob.
38 For he is not a ELOHIM of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Concerning the Elect, Paul said this:
Romans 14:7-8
7 For none of us liveth by himself, and no man dieth by himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto YAHWEH; and whether we die, we die unto YAHWEH: whether we live therefore, or die, we are YAHWEH'S.
And My YAHWEH Messiah Yahushua is the Living ELOHIM. So, I had to alter my thinking about souls whether they be living or dead.
What you have shared with me about souls is totally from your human perspective. YAHWEH ELOHIM does not think about these things in the manner in which humans think about them. When YAHWEH looks upon mankind, YAHWEH sees nothing but a bunch of dead bodies. You yourself are a dead body, Pegg, because you have in the past, and you are now continuing to rebel against the Law, your Paidagogos. If you do not repent of your sins, and immerse or bury your dead body in the water of life, which is the Word of ELOHIM, then you will eventually physically die because you have not followed the commands of your Paidagogos.
The Law does not command the ELOHIM to sacrifice, and neither did the Law command Messiah Yahushua to kill himself. Rather, the Law commands sinners to bring and kill their sacrifices.
If you do what the Law says, Pegg, then you have the possibility of life. If not, then the Law will have its way with you, and you will go on to physically die.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Hi Pegg,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote:
"Only when you die physically do you become a dead soul."
Formerly, I believed exactly as you believe concerning the nature of a soul, but I was forced to alter my thinking somewhat. Consider this saying of Yahushua:
Matthew 8:22
22 But Yahushua said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
The resurrected Messiah Yahushua right now has dominion over both Living and Dead:
Romans 14:9
9 For to this end Messiah both died, and rose, and revived, that he might have dominion over both dead and living.
Both states exist presently in the world. Have you ever wondered how Messiah could make this statement about Abraham and the Fathers:
Luke 20:37-38
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth YAHWEH the ELOHIM of Abraham, and the ELOHIM of Isaac, and the ELOHIM of Jacob.
38 For he is not a ELOHIM of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Concerning the Elect, Paul said this:
Romans 14:7-8
7 For none of us liveth by himself, and no man dieth by himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto YAHWEH; and whether we die, we die unto YAHWEH: whether we live therefore, or die, we are YAHWEH'S.
And My YAHWEH Messiah Yahushua is the Living ELOHIM. So, I had to alter my thinking about souls whether they be living or dead.
What you have shared with me about souls is totally from your human perspective. YAHWEH ELOHIM does not think about these things in the manner in which humans think about them. When YAHWEH looks upon mankind, YAHWEH sees nothing but a bunch of dead bodies. You yourself are a dead body, Pegg, because you have in the past, and you are now continuing to rebel against the Law, your Paidagogos. If you do not repent of your sins, and immerse or bury your dead body in the water of life, which is the Word of ELOHIM, then you will eventually physically die because you have not followed the commands of your Paidagogos.
The Law does not command the ELOHIM to sacrifice, and neither did the Law command Messiah Yahushua to kill himself. Rather, the Law commands sinners to bring and kill their sacrifices.
If you do what the Law says, Pegg, then you have the possibility of life. If not, then the Law will have its way with you, and you will go on to physically die.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

i'll take my chances with Jesus ;)
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
And Jesus says the "doers of Lawlessness" will be rejected.

What you're taking your chances on is a faulty and twisted understanding of what he meant regarding the Law itself.

Do you think its impossible to live by Gods righteousness without the mosiac law?

Before the mosaic law came into existence, people like Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Abel, Job etc live by the rightousness of Gods laws. But you and Latuwr feel it is impossible to do so....i dont understand how you can't marry the fact that some people were able to live by Gods righteousness without being adherents to the mosaic law.

As christians, we know its entirely possible to live by Gods righteous standards without being adherents to the mosaic law covenant and we do. Christ came to remove the law so as to allow people to practice Gods righteousness from the heart....that is what God wants us to do and that is why we have no need of the mosaic law:

Romans 7:6*But now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code.


Lawless people need written laws to tell them what they can and can't do. However, Righteousness is a state of mind and heart as Paul is saying above. If you are a righteous person at heart, you dont need a written code to tell you not to steal because a righteous person will not steal. Likewise, a morally upright young man will not need to be told not to commit adultery or fornication because a morally upright person will not allow himself to be led by the desires of the flesh and do that which God condemns.

So, if you kill the wrong desire, and live by the kingly law of love, you have no law against you because “Against such things there is no law.” Gal 5:22,23
 
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Shermana

Heretic
What were the "Statutes, ordinances, and judgments" which Abraham obeyed which found him favor with God? How do we know the Law given to Moses was not a reinstating of these principles?

If Paul says we are "discharged" from the Law, then he is directly violating what Jesus taught and is, as many Nazarenes and Ebionites charged, a lying false apostle who goes directly against what Jesus says.

It appears what you are taking your chances on is Paul, and directly rejecting what Jesus explicitly taught.

we know its entirely possible to live by Gods righteous standards without being adherents to the mosaic law covenant and we do

Right, as if you "know" for a fact what God's standards are. Presumptious Chutzpah that makes Jesus a liar.
 
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Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Hi Pegg and Shermana, there is an understanding that is different from each of your separate beliefs, and it is based upon the Spiritual side of the Law. Paul states that the Law is Spiritual (Rom 7:14), Yeshua states to us concerning a New Covenant, based upon how hatred is now as murder, and lust as adultery. Isn't Yeshua taking the Old Covenant (what is written of old), and placing those commands upon the heart (the Spiritual intent-Jer 31:33)? Each and every command of the Old Covenant has a Spiritual Fulfillment, or more simply stated, a hidden or veiled side of the command. Didn't Paul look at the command to not muzzle an ox as meaning that Elohim was directing that those who tread out the Gospel should share in that work, and it really wasn't physical oxen that Elohim was concerned with (1 Cor 9:9-12 & 1 Tim 5:17-18). When one starts to view the Law according to the Spirit, and to walk according to the Spiritual intent of those commands, there is now no condemnation (Rom 8:1-4), but if one turns from this righteousness (the Spiritual DOING of the Law), it would be better for them to have never known or understand this Truth (2 Pet 2:19-22).

The Truth is that ALL sinners have, with the help of wicked men, followed the directive of the Paidagogos, and have fulfilled the Spiritual intent of killing their sacrifice, by sinning. By not following the directives of the Paidagogos (sinning against the Old Covenant) we have all been given a Free Gift, and that is the Free Gift of Righteousness in following the Spiritual intent of those sacrificial commands, thus DOING the directive of the Paidagogos for those sins. By sinning, we ALL have placed Yeshua upon the stake/cross, and pierced Him, and caused Him to suffer so, so that a blessing could occur in TURNING us from our iniquity (Acts 3:26). Acknowledging that Yeshua is our sacrifice, and realizing that it was our sin which placed Him upon the stake/cross, and will place Him up again IF we fall away to where we need to again repent (Heb 6:6), is the catalyst to redeem us out from our sin, and start us on a course of looking at the Law in a new and better way, according to its Spiritual Fulfillment. Does this now mean that we throw out doing all physical "works" of the Law, by no means, and the Body of Messiah (Col 2:17) is to determine/judge what will be retained or remitted (John 20:23), and loosened or bound (Matt 16:19, 18:17-18), and He will fully support the decisions of His Wife.

Now, isn't this a solution to the differences between what you two believe? KB
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
What were the "Statutes, ordinances, and judgments" which Abraham obeyed which found him favor with God? How do we know the Law given to Moses was not a reinstating of these principles?

well for instance, we know that the observance of the Sabbath was NOT something Abraham practiced. How do we know?

There is an account of the Isrealites after they had left Egypt, Moses had just given them the Mosaic law and an israelite man was caught picking up sticks on the Sabbath. The camp didnt know what to do about it. It was a situation they had never encountered before....they sought advice from Moses as to what should be done to someone who works on the sabbath.

Now why didnt they know what the law stated about work on the sabbath? Dont you think it was because this was a new law for them???

Where was their 'oral' tradition regarding the Sabbath law? Simply put, they didnt have one! Why? Because they never knew of such a law as keeping the sabbath day. Why? Because Abraham never practiced such a law and he never handed it down orally to his Son Isaac who never handed it down to his son Jacob, who never handed it down to his 12 Sons who made up the tribe of Israel.

No Sabbath law means that what Moses gave the people were 'new' laws and requirements. And my guess is that the statutes and laws that Abraham knew, were the ones that God gave to Noah and laws concerning righteous moral behaviours as we learn from in the account about Job.
 
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