Muslims, Jews, & Christians - A look at the seperation.

[Poisonshady313]

but what if the evidence of Tarrantinos involvement with Pulp Fiction is on a par with the evidence for his involvement in Jackie Brown In fact the fans of jackie Brown say the Version of Pulp fiction you are watching is not the Original Tarrantino film at all, and is a poorly made version produced in the back streets of the far east, and that they have a directors cut of Jackie Brown where Tarrantino Himself says so and that Jackie Brown is his final Movie and there will be no more.

I probably wouldn't think very highly of them... and they probably wouldn't think very highly of me... but I'd still watch Pulp Fiction on their DVD player.

They agree you are a Tarrantino Fan but you dont have a real movie and you dont get to join the fan club because your Tarrantino is in fact a pseudonym for Run Run shaw. The same for Kill Bill Fans. As only Tarrantino or Run Run Shaw can clear this up , and they have decided to remain silent, Its a matter of conjecture.
that was fun

The DVD extras for Pulp Fiction have footage of Tarrantino holding the camera, filming scenes from Pulp Fiction, and giving interviews where he talks about making it. I would hardly say he remains silent.

 

[kai]

I probably wouldn't think very highly of them... and they probably wouldn't think very highly of me... but I'd still watch Pulp Fiction on their DVD player.

and you would still come to the conclusion that yours is the bona fide version

The DVD extras for Pulp Fiction have footage of Tarrantino holding the camera, filming scenes from Pulp Fiction, and giving interviews where he talks about making it. I would hardly say he remains silent.

But the Jackie brown fans say thats a corrupted film and bears no resemblance to the original that was given to their fan club and lost many years ago.


To you your god did not reveal the Quran and Mohamed is not your prophet there is no room for manoeuvre there is there? that's a fact to you.

to a Muslim Allah did reveal the Quran and Mohamed is his prophet that's a fact to him and there is no room for manoeuvre.


if you both accept that these are unalterable truths to each oher ,then i dont see how you can be worshipping the same God, your just wallpapering over the awkward questions so you both dont have to see them.

 

[Poisonshady313]

But the Jackie brown fans say thats a corrupted film and bears no resemblance to the original that was given to their fan club and lost many years ago.


To you your god did not reveal the Quran and Mohamed is not your prophet there is no room for manoeuvre there is there? that's a fact to you.

to a Muslim Allah did reveal the Quran and Mohamed is his prophet that's a fact to him and there is no room for manoeuvre.


if you both accept that these are unalterable truths to each oher ,then i dont see how you can be worshipping the same God, your just wallpapering over the awkward questions so you both dont have to see them.

Which brings me back to my original setup regarding pulp fiction. I am who I am. You might believe I've never watched it. Someone else might believe I have... and both of you might be very well convinced of your positions... but I am still me, regardless of what either of you think I have or haven't done.

 

[kai]

Poisonshady could you have a stab at answering this question for me.

if there is only one god, then any other percieved god is a false god yes?

How far can the perception of the real god be altered before your not worshipping the real one at all?

how many fundamental aspects and actions of God can be attributed to God before the identity of god has become so changed that you would not be even thinking of the original god and in fact have created in your mind another god? In fact a False God.

not a real one of course because there is only one,

 

[Michel07]

The fact that the Messiah has not come means the claim to be the Messiah is not worth the time or the effort of thinking about it.


And you're wrong that Jesus was the only person for whom this was claimed.

Here's a list of people who either declared themselves the messiah or other people declared them the messiah...

• Judas son of Hezekiah (Ezekias) (c. 4 BCE)
• Simon son of Joseph (c. 4 BCE) a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled. The messiah of Gabriel's Revelation.
• Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE)
• Jesus of Nazareth (ca. 4 BC - AD 30-?), in the Roman province of Iudaea. Jews who believed him to be the Messiah were the first Christians.
• Theudas (44-46)
• Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea
• Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Bar Kokhba revolt
• Moses of Crete (5th century)
• Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).
• Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
• Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)
• David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
• Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
• Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.
• Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)
• Asher Kay (1502) a German near Venice.
• David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).
• Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).
• Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Zvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)
• Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi.
• Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
• Mordecai Mokiakh ("the Rebuker&quot of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)
• Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.
• Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century
• Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.
• Shukr Kuhayl I, 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
• Rabbi Nachman of Breslov (Hebrew: נחמן מברסלב&#8206, Nachman from Uman (April 4, 1772 – October 16, 1810), was the founder of the Breslov Hasidic dynasty.
• Judah ben Shalom (Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
• Menachem Mendel Schneerson; a 20th century Rabbi and charismatic leader who is believed to be the Messiah by many of his adherents.

Of course, by the time these people died, it became perfectly clear that they were not the Messiah, although for some of them, they probably could have been. (Jesus is not one of them that probably could have been, from what I've read about him.)

Claiming to be the Messiah does NOT make anyone worth of my time as a Jew, because the simple fact remains that we are not in the messianic age.

There is not world peace, there is no Temple in Jerusalem, all the children of Israel are not living in Israel.

The notion that the Messiah had come already is at best a joke, and at worst an attempt to lead Jews away from the Torah by accepting things that were not told to them by the prophets. The acceptance of the idea that the messiah has already come is equal to the rejection of prophecy... which is to say, the rejection of God's word, which amounts to a rejection of God.

Apart from Jesus, how much documentation do you have regarding the rest of your list of applicants for Messiah as having raised the dead and numerous other miracles as witnessed by others. You are so right , selfproclamation by itself only goes so far and alone does not cut it. That is what witnessing is about. There is much Hebrew prophesy ( Old Testament) that is not about instant glory for God's people but rather a reflection of the price of salvation. Would this be a good time to mention that Jesus said " ...salvation is from the Jews." John 4:22 And that Jesus was a Jew.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Apart from Jesus, how much documentation do you have regarding the rest of your list of applicants for Messiah as having raised the dead and numerous other miracles as witnessed by others.

Doesn't matter. The messiah isn't supposed to be killed, let alone raise from the dead... and if you paid attention throughout the book of Deuteronomy, the ability to perform miracles may be granted to false prophets as a test of the people's loyalty to God. The fact that you were taken in by supposed miracles of Jesus means you failed.

There is much Hebrew prophesy ( Old Testament) that is not about instant glory for God's people but rather a reflection of the price of salvation.

huh?

Would this be a good time to mention that Jesus said " ...salvation is from the Jews." John 4:22 And that Jesus was a Jew.

I'm a Jew. Do you suppose I could start a religion whereby people worship me?

 

[Michel07]

Doesn't matter. The messiah isn't supposed to be killed, let alone raise from the dead... and if you paid attention throughout the book of Deuteronomy, the ability to perform miracles may be granted to false prophets as a test of the people's loyalty to God. The fact that you were taken in by supposed miracles of Jesus means you failed.

huh?

I'm a Jew. Do you suppose I could start a religion whereby people worship me?

The Scriptures say a lot of things and what you have is your interpretation and concepts of what the Messiah is supposed to be like. Keep waiting if you want because no one is forcing you to believe in Jesus but how would you even be able to see any thing about Jesus in the OT when you don't recognize Him in the first place? Seems pretty futile to me.

 

[Poisonshady313]

but how would you even be able to see any thing about Jesus in the OT when you don't recognize Him in the first place?

I don't.

 

[Caladan]

The Scriptures say a lot of things and what you have is your interpretation and concepts of what the Messiah is supposed to be like. Keep waiting if you want because no one is forcing you to believe in Jesus but how would you even be able to see any thing about Jesus in the OT when you don't recognize Him in the first place? Seems pretty futile to me.

What do you mean by recognizing Jesus?
I can easily say that a Jesus persona was tailored into Jewish scriptural prophecies, par the trend of the 1st century. does that mean that modern Christians recognize Jesus? or have a filtered version of this persona?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... how would you even be able to see any thing about Jesus in the OT when you don't recognize Him in the first place? Seems pretty futile to me.

So the prerequisite for "see[ing] any thing about Jesus in the OT" is "recognize[ing] Him in the first place." That says a great deal, none of which is very supportive of you.

 

[TheKnight]

Apart from Jesus, how much documentation do you have regarding the rest of your list of applicants for Messiah as having raised the dead and numerous other miracles as witnessed by others. You are so right , selfproclamation by itself only goes so far and alone does not cut it. That is what witnessing is about. There is much Hebrew prophesy ( Old Testament) that is not about instant glory for God's people but rather a reflection of the price of salvation. Would this be a good time to mention that Jesus said " ...salvation is from the Jews." John 4:22 And that Jesus was a Jew.

My friend, you are vastly ignorant of the realm of fake messiahs. If you knew about them, you would know that there is nothing that separates Jesus from the others on that list (except, perhaps, for the fact that Jesus has a religion).

There is no documentation of Jesus's miracles. There are claims by those who were his followers.

As a lover of the Chabad movement, I can personally tell you that there are many many stories of miracles preformed by Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson claimed by his followers.

So what is it that lets us know he is not the messiah? It is the same thing lets us know that Jesus is not, the simple fact that the Messianic age has not begun.

 

[Michel07]

My friend, you are vastly ignorant of the realm of fake messiahs. If you knew about them, you would know that there is nothing that separates Jesus from the others on that list (except, perhaps, for the fact that Jesus has a religion).

There is no documentation of Jesus's miracles. There are claims by those who were his followers.

As a lover of the Chabad movement, I can personally tell you that there are many many stories of miracles preformed by Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson claimed by his followers.

So what is it that lets us know he is not the messiah? It is the same thing lets us know that Jesus is not, the simple fact that the Messianic age has not begun.

My friend, I'm in my 50s and you do not know me and you certainly have no idea what I know or do not know so please spare me the B.S. because I have probably been around the block more times than you have and I could name you numerous fake messiahs that have existed even within my lifetime. If you refer as" no documentation of the miracles of Christ "to simply the fact that you choose to dismiss everything that has been written of Jesus over the centuries then you have the lamest argument I have ever heard. Using your "scholarly" approach I could say Alexander the Great was only a legend if I chose to dismiss everything that was written about him and in all truth no one could prove me wrong. Of course that would not make me right and it might even make me look silly at best. It is the same tactic used by others who deny certain historical events that do not serve their agenda.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My friend, I'm in my 50s ... If you refer as" no documentation of the miracles of Christ "to simply the fact that you choose to dismiss everything that has been written of Jesus over the centuries then you have the lamest argument I have ever heard.

And I am in my 60s.

Would you like to tell me what, specifically, should not be dismissed and why?

 

[Caladan]

Using your "scholarly" approach I could say Alexander the Great was only a legend if I chose to dismiss everything that was written about him and in all truth no one could prove me wrong. Of course that would not make me right and it might even make me look silly at best. It is the same tactic used by others who deny certain historical events that do not serve their agenda.

Does any person today believe that Alexander had a thing going with the Queen of the Amazons?
Alexander is engraved in historicity, but today the legendary elements of his biography are not needed. in the same sense, many today deny certain events which others accept as historical BECAUSE it serves their agenda.
for example, just like Alexander existed, its very possible that Jesus existed, but just like Alexander did not have an affair with the queen of the Amazons, its not likely that Jesus turned water into wine, or rose from the dead, UNLESS its in your religious agenda to claim or believe he did.

 

[TheKnight]

My friend, I'm in my 50s and you do not know me and you certainly have no idea what I know or do not know so please spare me the B.S. because I have probably been around the block more times than you have and I could name you numerous fake messiahs that have existed even within my lifetime. If you refer as" no documentation of the miracles of Christ "to simply the fact that you choose to dismiss everything that has been written of Jesus over the centuries then you have the lamest argument I have ever heard. Using your "scholarly" approach I could say Alexander the Great was only a legend if I chose to dismiss everything that was written about him and in all truth no one could prove me wrong. Of course that would not make me right and it might even make me look silly at best. It is the same tactic used by others who deny certain historical events that do not serve their agenda.

I am not concerned with myths, but with facts.

Even if the entirety of the Bible were false (I don't believe it is), Christianity as a myth is not internally consistent. It claims that Jesus is the Messiah as prophesied in the Jewish scriptures. There is overwhelming evidence against this.

With that in mind, the fact that the New Testament is entirely devoted to the idea of Jesus as a Messiah as prophesied by the Jewish scriptures (one that we know is false) means that we can dismiss what is written about Jesus as irrelevant.

People have written about the illustrious miracles of the Rebbe. People wrote about the "miracles" of Shabbatai Tzvi. Many false Messiahs had books or tomes written describing their feats.

However, not all of them are relevant. Why not? Because their claims, claims of being the Jewish messiah, are false. How can we know? Because the Jewish Messiah, as prophesied by the Jewish scriptures, has not come. This is easily demonstrable.

Therefore, my point stands. Jesus is not relevant, nor is all the material written about him, to the life of any believer in Judaism.

 

[Michel07]

Does any person today believe that Alexander had a thing going with the Queen of the Amazons?
Alexander is engraved in historicity, but today the legendary elements of his biography are not needed. in the same sense, many today deny certain events which others accept as historical BECAUSE it serves their agenda.
for example, just like Alexander existed, its very possible that Jesus existed, but just like Alexander did not have an affair with the queen of the Amazons, its not likely that Jesus turned water into wine, or rose from the dead, UNLESS its in your religious agenda to claim or believe he did.

I'm sorry, whose the Queen of the Amazon? I didn't read that one. Just joking. One of the points I have been trying to make is that our " minds eye" is our perception in understanding. But it is possible to blind it, with will, by immediately dismissing anything that does not conform with our own desire. In a real sense we could not " prove" to a blind man that the grass is green because he cannot see it. It is the same with our "minds eye." I believe in the Scriptures as not only theological but also as historic without however the constricts of being literal at all times. The six day creation story is an example of that while Jesus's parables are another example. On the other hand " thou shalt not steal" is to be taken literally. Testimony also, I believe, is to be taken literally. Not all testimony for Jesus has come from those who initially believed in him and that is the testimony that is the most credible. Today, Jesus continues to transform lives which is a powerful testament. 2000 years after his death.

 

[Caladan]

Today, Jesus continues to transform lives which is a powerful testament. 2000 years after his death.

Not to take away from the weight of Jesus and Christianity in human culture and history, but 1400 years after his death so does Muhammad, but that does not mean that I believe he rode on a winged steed from Mecca to Jerusalem. know what I mean?
for a Christian there is an agenda to believe the mystical events describes in the gospels are historical, just like to the Muslim there is an agenda to believe the miracles described in the Surahs.

 

[TheKnight]

But it is possible to blind it, with will, by immediately dismissing anything that does not conform with our own desire.

I was a devout Christian for most of my life. I was studying to become a minister and was well on my path to ordination when I discovered that Jesus is not who the scriptures prophesied the messiah to be.

I tried to find ways around it for about two years. I fought long and hard, studied hard, to find ways to reconcile it. However, I could not ignore the truth. To say I've blinded myself in order to fit my desire is to be ignorant of my past. I didn't want Christianity to be false. I didn't want to come to terms with the fact that it was. However, I believe that devotion to what is true is more appealing to God than blind obedience of a lie.

 

[Michel07]

I was a devout Christian for most of my life. I was studying to become a minister and was well on my path to ordination when I discovered that Jesus is not who the scriptures prophesied the messiah to be.

I tried to find ways around it for about two years. I fought long and hard, studied hard, to find ways to reconcile it. However, I could not ignore the truth. To say I've blinded myself in order to fit my desire is to be ignorant of my past. I didn't want Christianity to be false. I didn't want to come to terms with the fact that it was. However, I believe that devotion to what is true is more appealing to God than blind obedience of a lie.

Would you share with me what made you believe it was a lie?

 

[Michel07]

Not to take away from the weight of Jesus and Christianity in human culture and history, but 1400 years after his death so does Muhammad, but that does not mean that I believe he rode on a winged steed from Mecca to Jerusalem. know what I mean?
for a Christian there is an agenda to believe the mystical events describes in the gospels are historical, just like to the Muslim there is an agenda to believe the miracles described in the Surahs.

I thought you might bring that up but I believe it in that case it has more to do with Allah than Mohammed.