Muslims, Jews, & Christians - A look at the seperation.

[TheKnight]

nice, real nice

It's true.

Arrogance at it's best. Jew can only know best. Interesting.

Not that your comment is relevant to the thread, but an attempt to start a long winded argument. God's words are for everyone. Your blind and offensive ignorance towards all those that would know God's words is a testament to your true nature.

To make a statement that only Jews would know the true nature of the OT, is so childish. That statement would ONLY be true if God did not write the OT. If in deed Jewish men wrote on their own behalf, without God's help would it be plausible to say, Jews would know it best.

You and I both know that is not the case though, but God the spirit moved them as holy men of old wrote.

You don't even get what I said. I never said that only Jews can understand the Tanakh. My point was that Christians try to say that they know it better. The Christian goes to the Jew and says "Look Jew, here are your scriptures that I can't read and I know them better than you do." That's where the sheer arrogance is. And, as I said earlier, the Christians are dead wrong.

And BTW, I'm not trying to engage you in an argument, I'm responding to your thread. You asked about the binding factor between the 3 Abrahamic religions. I'm simply trying to show you that Jesus isn't that binding factor.

Why? Have any of them claimed to be the Christ and promise from God?

No. My point was, in the same way that these men would mean nothing to you (even though they are great figures in Jewish history), Jesus means nothing to the Jew.

 

[Poisonshady313]

To make a statement that only Jews would know the true nature of the OT, is so childish. That statement would ONLY be true if God did not write the OT. If in deed Jewish men wrote on their own behalf, without God's help would it be plausible to say, Jews would know it best.

The prophets were Jews. The Law was given to the Jews, specifically for the Jews... it would be ridiculous to suggest that anyone besides the Jews have a better understanding of it than the Jews.

In fact, to suggest that the Jews are so inept at their own laws and traditions that other nations know it better than them is to suggest that God is inept for giving it to the Jews in the first place.

I would hate to think that you'd accuse God of being inept.

 

[Poisonshady313]

So are these children taught that the promise of God is the Christ to come?

They don't use the word "Christ". It's a greek word, and Jews study in Hebrew. The Jews await the Messiah, and know what to expect... and know that since they don't live in the Messianic era, that the Messiah has not come.

Are they not exposed to world religions? I think you are full of dung to make such a statement.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to regard you as ignorant.

Isn't that like the KKK raising little white children to hate blacks?

Not at all. There's a tremendous wealth of law regarding treating non-Jews with dignity and respect... but we are not to learn their religions, speak the names of their gods, or marry them.

But we are most certainly not to hate them. There's a variety of negative adjectives I could use to describe the fact that you'd come up with a question like that.

Your saying a Jew child is raised to not know other world religions, or maybe just Christianity. Please clarify.

Jewish children are not raised to know other world religions.

Judaism isn't about antagonizing anyone or thinking negatively about anyone... it is about raising Jewish kids to be Jewish... to focus on following the Torah for the sake of loving God.

They don't need to be taught about Jesus, Vishnu, Apollo, Thor, or Xenu. They need to be taught about God, who created the heavens and the earth, and who took our fathers, the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, out of Egypt so that He could give us His law, that we should live and be well by it, and teach our children.

 

[TheKnight]

Your saying a Jew child is raised to not know other world religions, or maybe just Christianity. Please clarify.

There is no reason for a Jew to teach their Jewish child about the ways and beliefs of another religion. A Jewish child is free (when they become old enough) to look at or examine other religions if they should choose to do so. However, parents, as parents, do not teach their children about things which they don't feel are relevant to their children.

If I were to raise my children as Noahides, there would be no need for me to teach them about Christianity. There would be no need for me to tell them about Jesus and about what the Christians believe. If they ask, I'd be more than willing to destroy any notions they might come up with that Christianity could be true.

It's a matter of telling your children the truth. Telling lies to your children (IE that there is a Santa Claus, an Easter Bunny, Jesus etc) is not healthy for the growth of them.

 

[kai]

itwillend i dont think Christ impacts on jews at all, Christians might, but Christ doesnt come into their equations , why do you think he does or should?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It's true.

The saddest thing is the fact that the Christians are dead wrong.

Again very interesting. Please elaborate on your choice of words "dead wrong"

I never said that only Jews can understand the Tanakh.

It's the two religions who try to claim that they know Jewish scriptures better than the Jews. And surely you can't expect the Jews to believe that the Christians (with their thousands of denomination) that they know better.

Implications speak otherwise, but if your're now saying that is not what you meant, than OK.

And BTW, I'm not trying to engage you in an argument, I'm responding to your thread. You asked about the binding factor between the 3 Abrahamic religions. I'm simply trying to show you that Jesus isn't that binding factor.

I think the reverse as well, that He is what keeps them seperated.

No. My point was, in the same way that these men would mean nothing to you (even though they are great figures in Jewish history), Jesus means nothing to the Jew.

Comparing a Rabbi to someone who claims to be the Son of God, is not the same thing. Your Rabbi will not be mentioned in World History book in High School.

 

[TheKnight]

Again very interesting. Please elaborate on your choice of words "dead wrong"

Dead wrong on the concept of the Messiah and who the Messiah was.

Implications speak otherwise, but if your're now saying that is not what you meant, than OK.

Don't read implications. Read what's actually written. I meant what I wrote. All I said was that you cannot expect the Jews to believe that the Christians know better.

I think the reverse as well, that He is what keeps them seperated.

I wouldn't know. I don't believe that the 3 are separated.

Comparing a Rabbi to someone who claims to be the Son of God, is not the same thing. Your Rabbi will not be mentioned in World History book in High School.

You still don't get my point...my point wasn't the famousness of these figures, but of the relevance to your life. Just as Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is not relevant to you religiously, neither is Jesus relevant to any Jew religiously. The fact that someone is in a history book doesn't mean that their existence is relevant to the lives of those who read the book. I read about Mao Zedong in history class, but he's not relevant to me in any way.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

itwillend i dont think Christ impacts on jews at all, Christians might, but Christ doesnt come into their equations , why do you think he does or should?

For the simple fact that I am debating two individuals who claim Jesus means nothing to them. Their argument is Jews only know of Jesus because of Christians.
I understand that perspective. However, I am saying a Jew child that grows up and becomes educated will eventually learn about Jesus. I find it absurd to think they wouldn't learn about who Jesus is, since Jesus was the one contender in recent history to claim to be Christ.

After the Jew studies Jesus, he or she may or will conclude Jesus was not the Christ. that is not the point. The point is Jesus is the separation point between these religions.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You still don't get my point...my point wasn't the famousness of these figures, but of the relevance to your life. Just as Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is not relevant to you religiously, neither is Jesus relevant to any Jew religiously. The fact that someone is in a history book doesn't mean that their existence is relevant to the lives of those who read the book. I read about Mao Zedong in history class, but he's not relevant to me in any way.

Wow, this will be my last attempt with you.
A Jew is told by the OT that a Messiah will come. During the 1st century a figure came that was called by himself and his followers the Messiah.

Right or wrong, the relationship to a Jew is obvious.
So your statement that it isn't even relevant is so blindly stated.
If I were a Jew and allowed to think with my own thoughts, I would certainly be interested in why this fellow says he is the Messiah. Jew's should be interested in someone saying they are the Messiah. In fact, they are commanded to look for this Messiah.
Sure maybe and probably they will conclude Jesus is not the Messiah, but to make a statement that he is not relevant?????

 

[TheKnight]

After the Jew studies Jesus, he or she may or will conclude Jesus was not the Christ. that is not the point. The point is Jesus is the separation point between these religions.

He is only the separation point between Jews and Christians, not between Muslims and Jews.

Wow, this will be my last attempt with you.
A Jew is told by the OT that a Messiah will come. During the 1st century a figure came that was called by himself and his followers the Messiah.

Right or wrong, the relationship to a Jew is obvious.
So your statement that it isn't even relevant is so blindly stated.
If I were a Jew and allowed to think with my own thoughts, I would certainly be interested in why this fellow says he is the Messiah. Jew's should be interested in someone saying they are the Messiah. In fact, they are commanded to look for this Messiah.
Sure maybe and probably they will conclude Jesus is not the Messiah, but to make a statement that he is not relevant?????

You are right. If someone claimed to be the Messiah, there might be some benefit in looking at whether or not the claim is true. However, the extent to which one looks is a key factor.

If the person who claimed to be the Messiah is dead, then a Jew can completely stop all further inquiry into the Messiah-ship of that person. Why? Because all one needs to do is look around to see that it is obvious that the Messiah has yet to come.

And, until the things that will signify the coming of the Messiah occur, any claim that any person makes regarding their Messiah-ship can be fully ignored and dismissed because it isn't relevant in a time where the Messianic age isn't present.


More specifically, the Jesus claim to Messiahship can be ignored because Jesus claims to be a type of Messiah that the Jews don't even believe in. The Christian concept of Messiah isn't even close to the Jewish one. It's an entirely different type of theology and therefore it is not relevant to anyone who wishes to have any semblance of Jewish religious observance.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Your Rabbi will not be mentioned in World History book in High School.

You're wrong. I went to a public school, and the name Maimonides was most definitely in the world history book.

Maimonides is the Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon TheKnight mentioned.

 

[TheKnight]

You're wrong. I went to a public school, and the name Maimonides was most definitely in the world history book.

Maimonides is the Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon TheKnight mentioned.

The Rebbe (Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson) is also mentioned in some of the more modern world history books.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

He is only the separation point between Jews and Christians, not between Muslims and Jews.

Not exactly, seeing Muslims regard Jesus as an important prophet. You'll notice that if this thread was about Jews and Muslims, my argument wouldn't work. When comparing all three though, Jesus is the common problem.

You are right. If someone claimed to be the Messiah, there might be some benefit in looking at whether or not the claim is true. However, the extent to which one looks is a key factor.

This is called moving the goal post ey? The point was not the extent to which one looks at Jesus. My thread simply pointed out it is Jesus that seperates them

More specifically, the Jesus claim to Messiahship can be ignored because Jesus claims to be a type of Messiah that the Jews don't even believe in. The Christian concept of Messiah isn't even close to the Jewish one. It's an entirely different type of theology and therefore it is not relevant to anyone who wishes to have any semblance of Jewish religious observance.

Here we find in your paragraph exactly what I am saying. You can ignore Jesus after you learn about him. The fact is He claims to be Messiah, and you can't disporve that until you decide to study Him.
The conclusion after you study is not what this thread is about, but that Jesus is what seperate them. By your own words you are agreeing (at least for the Jews and Christians).

 

[Poisonshady313]

If I were a Jew and allowed to think with my own thoughts, I would certainly be interested in why this fellow says he is the Messiah. Jew's should be interested in someone saying they are the Messiah. In fact, they are commanded to look for this Messiah.

The fact that the Messiah has not come means the claim to be the Messiah is not worth the time or the effort of thinking about it.


And you're wrong that Jesus was the only person for whom this was claimed.

Here's a list of people who either declared themselves the messiah or other people declared them the messiah...

• Judas son of Hezekiah (Ezekias) (c. 4 BCE)
• Simon son of Joseph (c. 4 BCE) a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled. The messiah of Gabriel's Revelation.
• Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE)
• Jesus of Nazareth (ca. 4 BC - AD 30-?), in the Roman province of Iudaea. Jews who believed him to be the Messiah were the first Christians.
• Theudas (44-46)
• Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea
• Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Bar Kokhba revolt
• Moses of Crete (5th century)
• Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).
• Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
• Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)
• David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
• Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
• Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.
• Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)
• Asher Kay (1502) a German near Venice.
• David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).
• Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).
• Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Zvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)
• Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi.
• Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
• Mordecai Mokiakh ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)
• Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.
• Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century
• Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.
• Shukr Kuhayl I, 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
• Rabbi Nachman of Breslov (Hebrew: נחמן מברסלב&#8206, Nachman from Uman (April 4, 1772 – October 16, 1810), was the founder of the Breslov Hasidic dynasty.
• Judah ben Shalom (Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
• Menachem Mendel Schneerson; a 20th century Rabbi and charismatic leader who is believed to be the Messiah by many of his adherents.

Of course, by the time these people died, it became perfectly clear that they were not the Messiah, although for some of them, they probably could have been. (Jesus is not one of them that probably could have been, from what I've read about him.)

Claiming to be the Messiah does NOT make anyone worth of my time as a Jew, because the simple fact remains that we are not in the messianic age.

There is not world peace, there is no Temple in Jerusalem, all the children of Israel are not living in Israel.

The notion that the Messiah had come already is at best a joke, and at worst an attempt to lead Jews away from the Torah by accepting things that were not told to them by the prophets. The acceptance of the idea that the messiah has already come is equal to the rejection of prophecy... which is to say, the rejection of God's word, which amounts to a rejection of God.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You're wrong. I went to a public school, and the name Maimonides was most definitely in the world history book.

Maimonides is the Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon TheKnight mentioned.

The Rebbe (Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson) is also mentioned in some of the more modern world history books.

OK, so now we have proved they are in history books. If that is the best you have for this thread, I'm not impressed. This is called diversion.

Both of you made a claim Jesus is irrelevant to a Jew student or Jew in general. I simply said that can not be the view of a Jew until they have understood why Jesus is not the Messiah.

You then made a statement that Jews would not even hear of Jesus and in some cases don't ever hear about them. I simply said unless you lock them in a basement they will hear of Jesus, and they WILL hear according to some to be the Messiah. At this critical point the Jew should naturally say, "huh"?

Diverting the topic to say who is in a world history book isn't very useful. I ADMIT I was wrong about that. I don't have a problem saying I am wrong.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The fact is He claims to be Messiah, and you can't disporve that until you decide to study Him.

For the reasons listed in my previous post, this statement of yours is wrong. We can disprove that without hesitation, because the simple fact is that the Messiah has not come.

Jews study the law and the prophets, and we constantly look forward to the arrival of the Messiah. We know what to expect. And as we're not living in the conditions of the Messianic age as told by the prophets, any claim of being the Messiah is dismissed outright.

 

[Poisonshady313]

OK, so now we have proved they are in history books. If that is the best you have for this thread, I'm not impressed. This is called diversion.

Then I should say your claim that they would not be found in history books is a diversion. I wasn't trying to prove some ground shaking point by correcting you... I was simply correcting you.

Both of you made a claim Jesus is irrelevant to a Jew student or Jew in general. I simply said that can not be the view of a Jew until they have understood why Jesus is not the Messiah.

We understand full well why anybody in the history of the world who has claimed to be the messiah is wrong. No investigation is necessary.

Diverting the topic to say who is in a world history book isn't very useful.

YOU BROUGHT IT UP!

I ADMIT I was wrong about that. I don't have a problem saying I am wrong.

Good to know.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Of course, by the time these people died, it became perfectly clear that they were not the Messiah, although for some of them, they probably could have been. (Jesus is not one of them that probably could have been, from what I've read about him.)

Claiming to be the Messiah does NOT make anyone worth of my time as a Jew, because the simple fact remains that we are not in the messianic age.

There is not world peace, there is no Temple in Jerusalem, all the children of Israel are not living in Israel.

The notion that the Messiah had come already is at best a joke, and at worst an attempt to lead Jews away from the Torah by accepting things that were not told to them by the prophets. The acceptance of the idea that the messiah has already come is equal to the rejection of prophecy... which is to say, the rejection of God's word, which amounts to a rejection of God.

OK, you are only doing a good job at making yourself look silly.
Your whole beef so far has been there are Jews that have never heard of Jesus. You know that unless you keep a Jew in a hole somewhere their whole life or they just die to young they will hear of Jesus.
Just as you, they will have the choice to accept or reject.
The point is for the nth time is Jesus is what separate Jews from Christians. Whether or not He is the Messiah, he is still the relevant separation.

As for your google list, I am not aware of any religious movement the size of Judaism, Islam, or Christianity that follows any on that list except Jesus. Great list though!

 

[Poisonshady313]

I am a Jew living in America. This alone is proof that Jesus is not the Messiah, and I didn't even need to crack open a text containing Jesus' name to figure that out.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

For the reasons listed in my previous post, this statement of yours is wrong. We can disprove that without hesitation, because the simple fact is that the Messiah has not come.

Jews study the law and the prophets, and we constantly look forward to the arrival of the Messiah. We know what to expect. And as we're not living in the conditions of the Messianic age as told by the prophets, any claim of being the Messiah is dismissed outright.

If it was that obvious and easy, Jews wouldn't convert to Christianity, and Christians wouldn't convert to Judaism.
Really bad argument you have made.