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Muslim: 'An Islamic perspective'

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Laila, Nov 4, 2006.

  1. Laila

    Laila Active Member

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    ‘An Islamic perspective’

    I am writing this out of deep concern; concern for ‘My Ummah’.
    This is in response to the website quoted on the thread ‘Islam and homosexuality’
    and many other similar themed websites on the internet.

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/houses.htm

    I apologise if this thread causes upset, as it will to some people, but this is a discussion that must be had. I urge all Muslim brothers and sisters to reflect carefully as it is our moral duty as Muslims to think. I want to further add that I have high regard for all scholars and thinkers, to which I am indebted, without their work my thought process would be ‘limited’. It is crucial to say here that I do not have all the answers and I do not under any circumstances claim to be correct, knowledge lies solely with Allah; I am but a mere seeker of the truth.


    Can Islam accept homosexuality?

    And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: Most surely you are guilty of an indecency which none of the nations has ever done before you;
    What! do you come to the males and commit robbery on the highway, and you commit evil deeds in your assemblies? But nothing was the answer of his people except that they said: Bring on us Allah's punishment, if you are one of the truthful.

    (Surah 29, Verses 28-29)

    Surely We will cause to come down upon the people of this town a punishment from heaven, because they transgressed.
    And certainly We have left a clear sign of it for a people who understand.
    (Surah 29, Verses 34-35)


    These Verses make clear that same sex relationships, of a sexual nature, are not allowed in Islam.


    Punishments – this looks at the verses discussed in the above quoted websites.

    (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement. (Surah 24, Verse 2)


    And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors (Surah 24, Verse 4)

    By obvious implications, this injunction applies to cases where a women accuses a man of illicit sexual intercourse, and is subsequently unable to prove her accusations legally. The severity of the punishment to be meted out in such cases, as well as the requirement of four witnesses instead of the two that Islamic law regards as sufficient in all other criminal and civil suits – is based on the imperative necessity of preventing slander and off-hand accusations.

    And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
    And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. (Surah 4, Verses 15-16)


    The punishment for adultery for men is the same for women. It is prescribed in 24:2, and that is 100 lashes.
    In addition, a woman who is caught in the act of adultery on four different occasions and witnessed by four different people, is to be confined to her home. This is for her own safety and the safety of society, it seems logical to say this verse is the punishment for prostitution since the Arabic word ‘Fahishah’ is used. The words "until God creates an exit for them" could be if the woman finds a husband. This would end her quarantine, since marriage would hopefully make her change her ways and become a righteous woman. The words in 4:16 do not prescribe a different punishment for men. The first word used in 4:16 is the Arabic word "Ala'zan" which speaks of a couple (man and woman). It talks of a man and a woman in adultery or fornication; we read the words 'you shall punish them' (Aazuhoma). This refers to the prescribed punishment which is 100 lashes. It is important here to point out a major difference between the women spoken of in verse 15 from those in verse 16. It is a fundamental principle of Islamic Law that once a crime has been expiated by the trangressor’s undergoing the ordained legal punishment (in this case 100 stripes), it must be regarded, insofar as the society is concerned, as atoned for and done with.


    Later day scholars have interpreted 4:16 as a punishment for homosexuals. The word Ala’zan could be a man and a woman, or two men but not two women. That is because the word used is 'Ala'zan' and not 'Ala'tan'. I doubt this is the case since two men would not be spoken of as a ‘couple’ since this is not allowed in Islam. Additionally I could not find a reference for the word Ala’tan which refers to two women. Using this logic I conclude that 4:15-16, is not speaking about homosexual relationships. Be careful Muslim brothers and sisters we can not add any punishments; that of which Allah has not justly prescribed.

    Take to forgiveness and enjoin good and turn aside from the ignorant. And if a false imputation from the Shaitan afflict you, seek refuge in Allah; surely He is Hearing, Knowing (Surah 7, Verse 199-200)

    The meaning of this verse is literally “accept what is easily forthcoming (from man’s nature)” According to Zamakhsharri, khudh al-‘afw means: “Accept what comes easily to thee (or “what is willingly accorded to thee”) of the doings and the nature of men, and make things easy (for them), without causing them undue hardship (kulfah); and do not demand of them efforts that may be too difficult for them”. Thus, in accordance with the Quranic statements that “man has been created weak” (4:28) and that “God does not burden any human being with more than he is able to bear” (2:286), the believer is admonished to make due allowances for human nature and not be to harsh with those who err. This admonition is the more remarkable as it follows immediately upon a discourse on the most unforgivable of all sins – the ascribing of divine powers to anyone or anything but God.

    However if recent scholars, still take the interpretation of later day scholars; meaning Verse 16 is a punishment, the maximum punishment for practising homosexuality would be no more 100 strikes.
     
  2. Laila

    Laila Active Member

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    What can homosexuals not expect from an Islamic perspective?

    • The acceptance of their lifestyle
    • To become an Islamic leader
    • To allow to be married to someone of the same sex.
    What can homosexuals expect from an Islamic perspective?

    • The right not be called names
    • The right not to be beheading with a sword, chopped in two with a sword
    • Or not to be stoned to death
    • Or not to be burnt alive at the stake
    • Or not to get thrown alive from a mountain top or high building.
    • The right to live, and not to be disrespected.
    What options does a Muslim homosexual have?

    • To change their lifestyle
    • To remain celibate
    • To be.

    Homosexuality is clearly identified as a sin in the Quran. But, that does not mean that if a person is a practicing homosexual, he/she will burn in hell eternally.
    A person can be both homosexual and Muslim, and all homosexuals that have faith will go to heaven, but they may or may not spend a temporary time in hell. A person may also experience punishment in the grave, or they may even experience punishment in this life, as a result of their sins. This is not just a reality for homosexuals, but for all Muslims, including myself. It must also be pointed out, that it is also possible for God to forgive a person of all their sins and therefore not experience any punishment.

    The Prophet said, "Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings, the nights." (See Fath-ul-Bari, Page 102, Vol 1).

    And finally, Allah said in The Noble Quran:
    Say: "O 'Ibâdî (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allâh, verily Allâh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah 39, Verse 53)
    This verse shows Allah’s attribute that he is able to forgive all sins, but again, it is not guaranteed. Although, we must never despair in Allah’s mercy.
    God is merciful to all mankind. It is not just, to make someone feel worthless so that they turn away from Islam.


    This will be my last point on religious forums until next year as I have commenced a new management project which I need to give full attention to. Thank you for all the PM’s but don’t be disheartened if I do not reply to you all – I am not angry with anyone, just busy. One important thing that Islam has taught me is that humanity comes first; it has taught me ‘how to be a proper human being’.
     
  3. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    If I burn in hell for being who I am, so be it.
     
  4. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    You are always welcome, i'm so happy for having this discussion to enlighten each other. :)




    Not only that, God PUNISHED them for doing so.



    Fornication is different than homosexual intercorse.



    This verse is about those who accuse some muslim women of comitting fornication without any evidence so those (men or women) should bring four witnecess or they will be punished and all the scholars says that applied as well to those who accuse men of the same thing. (Read the Tafseer for the details).




    This law have been abrogated by lashing those who are unmarried and stoning those who are married.




    'Ala'zan' is meant to be for a couple of men and also for a hetro couple(man and a woman) but again this verse was before it has been abrogated by the law of stoning those who commit adultry. (Check the Tafseer for details).




    What is this supposed to prove?


    Again, please check any Tafseer for the verses of that punishment and you will see it mentioning the abrogation in these verse.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)
     
  5. Laila

    Laila Active Member

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  6. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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  7. AbuQuteiba

    AbuQuteiba Active Member

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    For some reason this website is blocked where I am. Please, tell me about this site.
     
  8. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    When you open that website you can see this title ..

    (FREE-MIND.ORG ... set yourself free)

    They should add somthing to it so it will be ...

    FREE-MIND.ORG ... set yourself free from Islam.

    This site have alot of wrong information about Islam and they claim the al-bukhari invented somthing called Hadith and they reject many important and crucial things in Islam.
     
  9. Laila

    Laila Active Member

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    Salam Champion,

    I just found it on the net - American based site, can't tell you more than that.
    I'm from the UK so I get involved in being active to stop injustice with a little private group my friends and I have set up.

    TT, Allah has not commanded us to stone people. Where does it say in the Quran that you must stone people?

    Also, a couple=2 people, since 'a couple of' is equivalent to more than two; the Quran is not speaking about a couple of. Check the translation from the online Quran on Cordoba's 'Quranic quotes' thread.
    Punishing people just because they are gay is not acceptable in Islam (and I will be sending my views to an Islamic scholar to get confirmation of this); any forgivesness or punishment comes solely from Allah.

    I'm sorry I can't discuss more, work is demanding at the moment but I look forward to meeting you all again next year.
    Take care everyone, Laila.
     
  10. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Again refer to the sunnah. The Quran is not the only authority in our religion. If it was O.K. and acceptable why did Allah destroy the people of lut. He destroyed them because of this sin. Would you rather be stoned or have what the Angel Jibreel did. You know that no nation was punished like they were so why do you say punishing people because they are gay is not acceptable when Allah himself did it. Again the issue is not just being gay, but are you spreading this evil in the society. People have rights as well as Allah. Many people from the Christians, Jews, and Muslims regard this sin as harmful to society and you know that Islam protects people from sin and upholds the right to have decent moral role models and to not infect the society with all kinds of fitna. ....Soooo what is the problem. You want to be gay be gay at home in your bedroom but do not spread this sin where my children will not see this disgusting act as cool or hip or OK for it is a learned trait enough exposure to something harmful will infect you or affect you.(very much like disease only it is a disease of the heart) Do it at home. I have a God given right to not see it. the same is for alcohol or anything else if you are only harming yourself and not affecting the society as a whole. Go ahead but do not spread the mischief. People in Islam have a right to privacy so if they the gays want to do it. Keep it at home. The same could be said for people who perform beastiality. If you want to commit this disgusting act DO IT AT YOUR HOUSE in your room where no one can see you but Allah. And then He will deal with you on the Day of Judgment.
     
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  11. AbuQuteiba

    AbuQuteiba Active Member

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    It very much disturbs me that a muslim would say such a thing as "so be it" (let alone agree to the misguided nature of this entire thread). Yet, i believe you should look back into your faith with open eyes. For a true muslim, would say "i will change who I am in any way i can to please Allah (SWT).

    Al Salamu Alaikum
     
  12. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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    Good post brother!!

    Peace
     
  13. Laila

    Laila Active Member

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    I never said that practising homosexual relationships is permissable, it is clearly not. However, what I am saying is that is is not acceptable to kill someone for being a practising homosexual. It is not up to human beings to punish this act, Allah will deal with it on the day of judgement.
    Stoning goes against the spirit of Islam. This is not Islam. Let us not forget that homosexuals are human beings. Where is our humanity?
    I am a heterosexual so I wouldn't really want to practice homosexuality in my house in my room.

    I've never seen a couple (homosexual or heterosexual) have sex in front of the general public (in the open). Is this something that just happens in Iran?
     
  14. Laila

    Laila Active Member

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    Could you elaborate please. How is it misleading or misguiding?
     
  15. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    You are missing the point. It is permissible according to OUR RELIGION. As stipulated in the Sunnah of not only Allah in the destruction of Lut but the Messenger (pbuh) to hand out certain punishments if the sin is poluting society. If they are practicing this disgusting sin in the open speading it. Then it is our responsibility to check it before this disease of the heart spreads. And what do we do when we have germs that make us ill WE KILL THEM BY THE USE OF SOME ANTIBIOTICS.

    You ask where is the humanity? Exactly where is the humanity of the people who do this sin, they act are acting like dogs. Their sexual desires has taken over all rational thought. so you are saying it is human for a man to do things to another man that Allah created the women (as a gift and companion for Adam) for. When Allah created Adam and Eve he didn't create Steve and say OK choose. You talk about Humanity! HELLO, ALLAH DESTROYED A WHOLE NATION OF THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE. WHAT IS GOOD FOR ALLAH IS GOOD FOR HIS MESSENGER.

    If you drink in public in a Islamic country under shariah what happens you are lashed in public. Stoning is a punishment prescribed to purify the individual of the sin in dunya so that perhaps Allah will forgive them in the next life. That is why it is prescribed. Let me ask if you were to be stoned for a sin you committed would you rather be perged of the sin in this life or take your chances with the Creator whose punishment is way more severe. Compare Hellfire to Stoning. I will take the stoning any day of the week. The point of my whole post earlier is we have the evidence that it is permissible for the Prophet (pbuh) did it for certain sins. Again if you want to argue this as an authority then I suggest you read my post about the importance and authority of the sunnah.

    And just because you have never seen people do it does not mean it doesn't exist. Reality does not need you to believe in it inorder for it to exist. Many people deny the existence of Hellfire but when it is dragged forth on the Day of Judgment then as Allah says EVERY SOUL SHALL KNOW.
     
  16. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    so be it, wow she really wants the punishment. Maybe she does not know what hell fire is. Champion maybe you and I should start a post on the descriptions of Hellfire and Paradise from the Quran and Sunnah. Let me know. I can do one you can do the other. I have the spectacle of death which is a great book on the subject covering both topics as well as the grave.

    peace.
     
  17. Laila

    Laila Active Member

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    Salam Brother Mujahid,

    I beg to differ, stoning has got nothing to do with Islam. It was Allah that punished the people in the time of Lut (bpuh) not other human beings.
    If it stated that we should be stoning people in the Quran I would accept it without reservation. However, it doesn't and neither does it fit in with the 'spirit of' the teachings of Islam. This is why I can safely say that stoning is unIslamic. Muhammad (pbuh) was a kind, gentle and caring person; stoning has not come from the teachings of the Prophet. To say it has, is a slander against his beautiful personality.
     
  18. jamaesi

    jamaesi To Save A Lamb

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    Right, as I change my sexuality I will change my eye colour and grow another set of arms, perhaps my future husband would rather me have blue eyes and well, the extra set of arms will help me cook and clean for him!

    Keep your pious and rude and patronising attitude to yourself. I know what hell is.

    Repressing who I am, what I was made as, is also hell. I doubt G-d would prefer me mentally damaged and suicided but straight.


    And, loves, it's not your place to judge me. End of story.
     
  19. Laila

    Laila Active Member

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    You are right Jamaesi, who are we to judge?
    All judgement lies solely with God. We are the same; you are a human being and so am I.
     
  20. fullyveiled muslimah

    fullyveiled muslimah Evil incarnate!

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    I think judging gets confused with reminding. We are not the judges of one another in the greater sense, but we are here to be a check and balance for one another. We ought not to have such a problem being told or reminded what is the orders of Allah and what aren't. I find it to be arrogance when one cannot be reminded of or told anything. Allah says reminding is good for the believers. Hadith are full of the fadhail and warnings on deeds. Who was rasulullah talking to? He was talking to the companions. These people were known to be pious people, yet rasulullah (saw) often would tell them about good deeds and the reward and bad deeds and the punishment. Of course they were largely aware of these things particularly towards the end of his life, but he told them anyway. We are no better than them. We can stand a check or two, and those who can't bear to be checked need to get their priorities straight.
     
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