Muslim: 'An Islamic perspective'

[AbuQuteiba]

Any scholar of hadith will tell you that the hadith was not recorded during the time of the Prophet.

Subhan Allah. Would you mind naming some (one)? Plus, I don't need a scholar, there are authentic hadeeth that say so. And all true scholars of Islam, accept authentic hadeeth.

Who explains the Quran and puts it into the heart, you'll find from your reading of the Quran that it is God alone.

You'll find all your proof in the Quran brother, read and understand it. Alhamdulillaah.

I advise you to do the same, sister. Alhamdulillah, indeed.

 

[Laila]

Subhan Allah. Would you mind naming some (one)? Plus, I don't need a scholar, there are authentic hadeeth that say so. And all true scholars of Islam, accept authentic hadeeth.
I advise you to do the same, sister. Alhamdulillah, indeed.

Oh dear brother! Why don't you read the sites that sister Peace has quoted, at least you can't say it's my bias on a particular scholar or site.
Let us go back to the same question or point of this thread.
You claim that the hadith on stoning is an authentic hadith right or wrong?

When the Quran mentions stoning and the people that have used or threathend with stoning others they are the ones who are against God. The truth is in the Quran; stoning is not associated with people who are following the will of God it is associated with people who are waging a war against God. Therefore the supposedly 'authentic hadith' on stoning can't be very authentic can it? Secondly, the hadith does go against the Quran by making stoning people an acceptable punishment by the law of God. The law of God has never made stoning people an acceptable punishment.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Oh dear brother! Why don't you read the sites that sister Peace has quoted, at least you can't say it's my bias on a particular scholar or site.punishment.

You didn't ask me to do that the first time, did you? You said, that i should ask any scholar of hadith, and he (or they) would tell me that hadith was not recorded in the time of the Prophet(SAWS). And my reply, was made to that statement.

Let us go back to the same question or point of this thread.
You claim that the hadith on stoning is an authentic hadith right or wrong?

It is what the Prophet(SAWS) said, alhamdulillah.

When the Quran mentions stoning and the people that have used or threathend with stoning others they are the ones who are against God. The truth is in the Quran; stoning is not associated with people who are following the will of God it is associated with people who are waging a war against God. Therefore the supposedly 'authentic hadith' on stoning can't be very authentic can it?

So you're saying there is a verse in the Qur'an that says that the people who stone, or threaten to stone others, are the ones against God? There is no such verse in the Qur'an. If there was, you would have used it to refute my claims by now. Subhan Allah. The Prophet(SAWS), waging war against God. Actually, the people who do not accept the Prophet(SAWS) orders, and laws, are waging war against Allah(SWT). Just like Allah(SWT) says in the Qur'an.

It "can be", has been, and always will be authentic, insha'Allah.

Secondly, the hadith does go against the Quran by making stoning people an acceptable punishment by the law of God. The law of God has never made stoning people an acceptable punishment.

The law of God orders to follow the laws of the Prophet(SAWS). Allah(SWT) created laws through the Prophet(SAWS). There is no contradiction. Allah(SWT) did make stoning an acceptable punishment, when he ordered the Prophet(SAWS) to do so.

 

[Laila]

So you're saying there is a verse in the Qur'an that says that the people who stone, or threaten to stone others, are the ones against God? There is no such verse in the Qur'an.

Did I say there was a specific verse? I was talking about the examples in the Quran.

If there was, you would have used it to refute my claims by now. Subhan Allah. The Prophet(SAWS), waging war against God. Actually, the people who do not accept the Prophet(SAWS) orders, and laws, are waging war against Allah(SWT). Just like Allah(SWT) says in the Qur'an.

How dare you say such things about the Prophet!

Stoning was never used by the righteous in the Quran:

[11.91] They said: O Shu'aib! we do not understand much of what you say and most surely we see you to be weak among us, and were it not for your family we would surely stone you, and you are not mighty against us.
[11.92] He said: O my people! is my family more esteemed by you than Allah? And you neglect Him as a thing cast behind your back; surely my Lord encompasses what you do:

[18.19] And thus did We rouse them that they might question each other. A speaker among them said: How long have you tarried? They said: We have tarried for a day or a part of a day. (Others) said: Your Lord knows best how long you have tarried. Now send one of you with this silver (coin) of yours to the city, then let him see which of them has purest food, so let him bring you provision from it, and let him behave with gentleness, and by no means make your case known to any one:
[18.20] For surely if they prevail against you they would stone you to death or force you back to their religion, and then you will never succeed.

[26.115] I am naught but a plain warner.
[26.116] They said: If you desist not, O Nuh, you shall most certainly be of those stoned to death.

[36.14] When We sent to them two, they rejected both of them, then We strengthened (them) with a third, so they said: Surely we are messengers to you.
[36.15] They said: You are naught but mortals like ourselves, nor has the Beneficent God revealed anything; you only lie.
[36.16] They said: Our Lord knows that we are most surely messengers to you.
[36.17] And nothing devolves on us but a clear deliverance (of the message).
[36.18] They said: Surely we augur evil from you; if you do not desist, we will certainly stone you, and there shall certainly afflict vou a painful chastisement from us.

[44.19] And that do not exalt yourselves against Allah, surely I will bring to you a clear authority:
[44.20] And surely I take refuge with my Lord and your Lord that you should stone me to death:
[44.21] And if you do not believe in me, then leave me alone.

Allah(SWT) did make stoning an acceptable punishment, when he ordered the Prophet(SAWS) to do so.

I'm sorry I can never accept this blasphemy.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Did I say there was a specific verse? I was talking about the examples in the Quran.

You said that the Qur'an mentions, that people who stone, or intend to stone, are the people against God (waging war against God).

Stoning was never used by the righteous in the Quran:

[11.91] They said: O Shu'aib! we do not understand much of what you say and most surely we see you to be weak among us, and were it not for your family we would surely stone you, and you are not mighty against us.
[11.92] He said: O my people! is my family more esteemed by you than Allah? And you neglect Him as a thing cast behind your back; surely my Lord encompasses what you do:

[18.19] And thus did We rouse them that they might question each other. A speaker among them said: How long have you tarried? They said: We have tarried for a day or a part of a day. (Others) said: Your Lord knows best how long you have tarried. Now send one of you with this silver (coin) of yours to the city, then let him see which of them has purest food, so let him bring you provision from it, and let him behave with gentleness, and by no means make your case known to any one:
[18.20] For surely if they prevail against you they would stone you to death or force you back to their religion, and then you will never succeed.

[26.115] I am naught but a plain warner.
[26.116] They said: If you desist not, O Nuh, you shall most certainly be of those stoned to death.

[36.14] When We sent to them two, they rejected both of them, then We strengthened (them) with a third, so they said: Surely we are messengers to you.
[36.15] They said: You are naught but mortals like ourselves, nor has the Beneficent God revealed anything; you only lie.
[36.16] They said: Our Lord knows that we are most surely messengers to you.
[36.17] And nothing devolves on us but a clear deliverance (of the message).
[36.18] They said: Surely we augur evil from you; if you do not desist, we will certainly stone you, and there shall certainly afflict vou a painful chastisement from us.

[44.19] And that do not exalt yourselves against Allah, surely I will bring to you a clear authority:
[44.20] And surely I take refuge with my Lord and your Lord that you should stone me to death:
[44.21] And if you do not believe in me, then leave me alone.

Are you seriously trying to back up your claim using these verses? Stoning, like any other form of punishment, depends on its cause. Consider this. Before Muhammed (SAWS) was made Prophet, Kuffar (the disbelievers) Quraysh used to glorify the Kaa'ba. They also used to circle it. But do we consider what they were doing righteous? No. It only became righteous and a form of worship, after Allah(SWT) ordered us to do so. The same goes for stoning. Even the death penalty, and crucifixion, were used before, by the evil, or for evil causes, yet Islam condones both.

I'm sorry I can never accept this blasphemy.

Call it what you like. Truth shall always prevail over falsehood, insha'Allah. Whether you choose to accept it or not.

 

[Laila]

You said that the Qur'an mentions, that people who stone, or intend to stone, are the people against God (waging war against God).

The people talked about in the Quran (the references I've given you) are certainly waging a war against God by rejecting the message!

Are you seriously trying to back up your claim using these verses? Stoning, like any other form of punishment, depends on its cause. Consider this. Before Muhammed (SAWS) was made Prophet, Kuffar (the disbelievers) Quraysh used to glorify the Kaa'ba. They also used to circle it. But do we consider what they were doing righteous? No. It only became righteous and a form of worship, after Allah(SWT) ordered us to do so. The same goes for stoning. Even the death penalty, and crucifixion, were used before, by the evil, or for evil causes, yet Islam condones both.

They used to circle it, Islam is a very old religion the same religion as Abraham (pbuh) but unfortuntely they lost the message and started idol worship except for a small group of people that followed the truth. So, yes there was righteousness there in the beginning that gradually diminished.

God as never ordered us to stone people in the Quran. You will not find this in the Quran. Your last sentence I'm afraid does not help your point.

Call it what you like. Truth shall always prevail over falsehood, insha'Allah. Whether you choose to accept it or not.

Indeed it will.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

The people talked about in the Quran (the references I've given you) are certainly waging a war against God by rejecting the message!

Exactly. The reason they are waging war against God, is because they reject the message. Not because they've stoned, or threatened to stone others.

They used to circle it, Islam is a very old religion the same religion as Abraham (pbuh) but unfortuntely they lost the message and started idol worship except for a small group of people that followed the truth. So, yes there was righteousness there in the beginning that gradually diminished.

Subhan Allah. Whether there was righteousness there before or not, wasn't what i asked you to consider. I wanted you to see that righteous actions, in this case glorifying and/ or circling the kaa'ba, can be done by evil people i.e. Kuffar Quraysh. So the way you've tried to back up your claim, using the argument that stoning was never used by the righteous in the Qur'an, is of no relevance. Because the validity of any action, is dependant upon the cause of that action, not whom has carried it out.

God as never ordered us to stone people in the Quran. You will not find this in the Quran. Your last sentence I'm afraid does not help your point.

Yes he did, (SWT). Yet you choose not to believe it. I still can't see why. Well, i'm sure you have your own interpretations for those things, that are in fact found in the Qur'an, as well. But for the sake of making the truth clearer, i'll ask why you think my last statement does not help my point?

Indeed it will.

Insha'Allah.

 

[Laila]

Exactly. The reason they are waging war against God, is because they reject the message. Not because they've stoned, or threatened to stone others.

Brother, the ones who have rejected the message hence rejected God are the ones who use stoning. The ones who have accepted the message hence accepted God do not use stoning. There is evidence for the former in the Quran (as I posted) not for the later.

Subhan Allah. Whether there was righteousness there before or not, wasn't what i asked you to consider. I wanted you to see that righteous actions, in this case glorifying and/ or circling the kaa'ba, can be done by evil people i.e. Kuffar Quraysh. So the way you've tried to back up your claim, using the argument that stoning was never used by the righteous in the Qur'an, is of no relevance. Because the validity of any action, is dependant upon the cause of that action, not whom has carried it out.

I'm afraid you really haven't grasped the concept. Circling the kaa'ba is not solely associated with the rejectors, however stoning is.

Yes he did, (SWT). Yet you choose not to believe it. I still can't see why. Well, i'm sure you have your own interpretations for those things, that are in fact found in the Qur'an, as well. But for the sake of making the truth clearer, i'll ask why you think my last statement does not help my point?

Tell me where in the Quran God has ordered us to stone. Do you see why I choose to disagree with you? God has not, period.
I'm sure you can understand why but since you asked me politely I'll try to explain why your last statement does not help your point.

(1)In dealing with murder, the Quran definitely discourages capital punishment

[2.178] O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
[2.179] And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Due to human meanness and injustice, many people cannot even imagine what this Quranic law says.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]They refuse to accept the clear injunctions that strict equivalence must be observed - if a woman kills a man, or a man kills a woman, or a slave kills a free person, or a free person kills a slave, capital punishment cannot be applied.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Quran prefers that the murderer compensate the victim's family. Killing the murderer does not bring the victim back, nor does the family of the victim benefit from executing the murderer. The compensation, however, must be sufficient to be a deterrent for others. In Islam, the victim and/or the victim's family are the judges for all crimes; they decide what the punishment shall be under the supervision of a person who knows the Quran.[/FONT]


(2) regarding crucifixion please read post 39 at this link http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=675568#post675568



Peace.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Brother, the ones who have rejected the message hence rejected God are the ones who use stoning. The ones who have accepted the message hence accepted God do not use stoning. There is evidence for the former in the Quran (as I posted) not for the later.

The use of stoning is not associated with the rejection of the truth. Whether or not those who have in fact rejected the truth used stoning, is of no importance.

I'm afraid you really haven't grasped the concept. Circling the kaa'ba is not solely associated with the rejectors, however stoning is.

Again. This has nothing to do with the righteousness of the action itself.

Tell me where in the Quran God has ordered us to stone. Do you see why I choose to disagree with you? God has not, period.

The Qur'an orders to follow the Prophet(SAWS)'s orders, and the Prophet(SAWS) ordered us to stone.

I'm sure you can understand why but since you asked me politely I'll try to explain why your last statement does not help your point.

I'm sure i can understand why you think it doesn't. Whether your understanding is correct or not, and it isn't, is what we're trying to get to.

(1)In dealing with murder, the Quran definitely discourages capital punishment

[2.178] O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
[2.179] And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Due to human meanness and injustice, many people cannot even imagine what this Quranic law says.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]They refuse to accept the clear injunctions that strict equivalence must be observed - if a woman kills a man, or a man kills a woman, or a slave kills a free person, or a free person kills a slave, capital punishment cannot be applied.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Quran prefers that the murderer compensate the victim's family. Killing the murderer does not bring the victim back, nor does the family of the victim benefit from executing the murderer. The compensation, however, must be sufficient to be a deterrent for others. In Islam, the victim and/or the victim's family are the judges for all crimes; they decide what the punishment shall be under the supervision of a person who knows the Quran.[/FONT]

I find it funny how you choose to interpret the Qur'an the way you see fit, and disregard the Prophet(SAWS)'s explanation, and the companions(RAA) interpretations. Maybe when you have enough imaan to accept them, we can get somewhere.

(2) regarding crucifixion please read post 39 at this link http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=675568#post675568


Peace.

I will, insha'Allah.

 

[Laila]

I find it funny how you choose to interpret the Qur'an the way you see fit, and disregard the Prophet(SAWS)'s explanation, and the companions(RAA) interpretations. Maybe when you have enough imaan to accept them, we can get somewhere.

Perhaps when you choose to follow the rulings of God you may understand.

[6.114] Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

God did not ask anyone to stone other people.

 

[Laila]

The Qur'an orders to follow the Prophet(SAWS)'s orders, and the Prophet(SAWS) ordered us to stone.

Brother, how the Prophet (bpuh) ruled in evident in the verses of the Quran, the ultimate book of truth which does not order the Prophet to stone.

[5.48] And We have revealed to you (O Muhammed) the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
[5.49] And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.
[5.50] Is it then the judgment of (the times of) ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure?




judge between them by what Allah has revealed = rule among them in accordance with God's revelations.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Perhaps when you choose to follow the rulings of God you may understand.

I've chosen to follow all the rulings that came out of the Prophet(SAWS)'s mouth (since he was the one to reveal the message to humanity). I'de rather do that, and not "understand", than follow the rulings you attribute to God.

[6.114] Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

[65] But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.[4.56]

[115] If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that of the believers, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge!

God did not ask anyone to stone other people.

The Prophet(SAWS) did. And he wouldn't do so, (SAWS), without the permission of Allah(SWT).

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Brother, how the Prophet (bpuh) ruled in evident in the verses of the Quran, the ultimate book of truth which does not order the Prophet to stone.

[5.48] And We have revealed to you (O Muhammed) the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
[5.49] And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.
[5.50] Is it then the judgment of (the times of) ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure?




judge between them by what Allah has revealed = rule among them in accordance with God's revelations.

The Prophets words and actions, are a revelation from Allah(SWT).

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[1] By the Star when it goes down,
[2] Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled,
[3] Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
[4] It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
[5] He was taught by one Mighty in Power [53.1-5]

Of Abdullah ibn Amru(RAA) that he said: "I used to write everything, and anything, i heard of the Prophet(SAWS), so that i could memorize it. When Quraysh heard of this, they got angry and said to me, you write everything you hear of the Prophet(SAWS), and he is but a man, that speaks even it times of anger?! So i stopped writing. I then told this to the Prophet(SAWS), and he said to me: "Write! For in the name of whom contains my life, nothing except that which is righteous comes out of my mouth!" Authenic hadeeth. Narrated by the Imaam Ahmed, and Abu Dawood.

 

[Laila]

I've chosen to follow all the rulings that came out of the Prophet(SAWS)'s mouth (since he was the one to reveal the message to humanity). I'de rather do that, and not "understand", than follow the rulings you attribute to God.

Are you saying the Prophet taught us other than what is in the Quran? You are grossly mistaken.

[65] But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.[4.56]

[115] If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that of the believers, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge!

The path of the believers is accepting all of God's messengers and upholding the teachings in the final revelation, the Quran.

The Prophet(SAWS) did. And he wouldn't do so, (SAWS), without the permission of Allah(SWT).

The prophet did not follow anything other than the Quran.
This is what the God tells us:
[25.30] And the Apostle cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.

The Prophet has asked us to follow the Quran and the rulings of God are in the Quran.

 

[Laila]

The Prophets words and actions, are a revelation from Allah(SWT).

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[1] By the Star when it goes down,
[2] Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled,
[3] Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
[4] It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
[5] He was taught by one Mighty in Power [53.1-5]

The Quran is a revelation from Allah. The verses you have quoted are talking about the Quran not the personal actions of the Prophet.

Of Abdullah ibn Amru(RAA) that he said: "I used to write everything, and anything, i heard of the Prophet(SAWS), so that i could memorize it. When Quraysh heard of this, they got angry and said to me, you write everything you hear of the Prophet(SAWS), and he is but a man, that speaks even it times of anger?! So i stopped writing. I then told this to the Prophet(SAWS), and he said to me: "Write! For in the name of whom contains my life, nothing except that which is righteous comes out of my mouth!" Authenic hadeeth. Narrated by the Imaam Ahmed, and Abu Dawood.

I reject this hadith.
This is what God tells us:
[45.6] These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?
6. Tilka ayatu Allahi natlooha AAalayka bialhaqqi fabi-ayyi hadeethin baAAda Allahi waayatihi yu/minoona


God commands the believers to obey the prophet, but God also makes sure that the obedience to the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered and nothing else.

[64.12] And obey Allah and obey the Apostle, but if you turn back, then upon Our Apostle devolves only the clear delivery (of the message).

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Are you saying the Prophet taught us other than what is in the Quran? You are grossly mistaken.

Allah(SWT) issued laws in the Qur'an, and through the Prophet(SAWS).

[/font]

The path of the believers is accepting all of God's messengers and upholding the teachings in the final revelation, the Quran.



The prophet did not follow anything other than the Quran.
This is what the God tells us:
[25.30] And the Apostle cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.

The Prophet has asked us to follow the Quran and the rulings of God are in the Quran.

The Prophet(SAWS) ordered us to follow the Qur'an, and his example (Sunnah). Allah(SWT) said: [21] Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah.[33.21]

 

[AbuQuteiba]

The Quran is a revelation from Allah. The verses you have quoted are talking about the Quran not the personal actions of the Prophet.

The laws Allah(SWT) issued through the Prophet(SAWS) are a revelation from Allah(SWT) as well. The verse means both, insha'Allah.

I reject this hadith.

I'm sorry, but your ignorance concerning the history and science of hadith is making this a really long discussion. If you just took the time to read a good book concerning hadith, you'd make this alot easier. You wouldn't really even have to agree with what the book said, but at least your claims would be built on the knowledge of what Muslims consider to be hadith.

If you choose to reject one authentic hadeeth the companions(RAA) memorized from the Prophet(SAWS), and later compiled, you might as well reject all authentic hadeeth. When you say i believe in a certain hadeeth, you are basically saying, you believe that Prophet(SAWS) uttered these actual words. And obviously, if you choose to reject a certain hadith, you're saying that you do not believe that the Prophet(SAWS) said this. And here, we have a contradiction. All authentic hadith were memorized, and later compiled, by the companions(RAA). All authentic hadeeth, come directly from them, from what they have heard the Prophet(SAWS) say, or seen him do. So basically, if you reject one hadith, you might as well reject all hadith. So you need to stop using your vain desires, choosing which hadith is the Prophet(SAWS)'s, and which hadith is not. Plus, you claim that the Qur'an is all we need, so you might as well reject all hadith, rather than pretending you accept some, and reject others (based on your own understanding none the less).

This is what God tells us:
[45.6] These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?
6. Tilka ayatu Allahi natlooha AAalayka bialhaqqi fabi-ayyi hadeethin baAAda Allahi waayatihi yu/minoona

In order to undertand the Qur'an correctly, you need to understand the Arabic language. Allah(SWT) is saying in this verse, that the Qur'an contains the whole Truth. Truth, that no one can deny. So if they will not believe in the clear truth in the Qur'an, then in which talk (hadeeth) shall they believe?

This has nothing to do with the fact that Allah(SWT) issued laws through his Prophet(SAWS), to see who will truly follow the Qur'ans orders to follow the Prophet(SAWS).

God commands the believers to obey the prophet, but God also makes sure that the obedience to the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered and nothing else.

[64.12] And obey Allah and obey the Apostle, but if you turn back, then upon Our Apostle devolves only the clear delivery (of the message).

The Prophet(SAWS) followed what was revealed to him only. And Allah(SWT) chose to reveal laws, to him(SAWS), in the Qur'an, and through the Angel Jibreel, "wahy", as well. [50] Say: "I tell you not that with me are the Treasures of Allah, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me." Say: "Can the blind be held equal to the seeing?" Will ye then consider not? .

As for the verse you quoted. One, the addition in the translation "of the message", is not a part of the Qur'an, so you can't back up your claim with that. And even if it was, it says message, which is more likely to mean the message of Islam, rather the Qur'an.

 

[Laila]

brother the message of Islam is in the Quran.
Looks like we've gone full circle again! So the best thing for me to say (since we will not agree on this matter) is you go your way and I'll go mine.
You have not convinced me that God tells us to follow the sunna of Muhammed, and likewise you are not in agreement with the verses I have quoted from the Quran.
Enough now, we have to accept our disagreements and our different spiritual paths to God. I wish to serve God based on the Quran alone, as this is what I understand is the straight path.

Peace to you.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

brother the message of Islam is in the Quran.

The main message of Islam is found in the Qur'an. In Arabic, the Qur'an is 'aam, which means general. And the Sunnah is, in Arabic, khaas. So it is the mukhasis of the Qur'an, which means the explanation of the Qur'an. The exact way to pray, fast, and worship Allah(SWT) basically is not found in the Qur'an. It is found in the Sunnah, the Prophet(SAWS)'s example. This is the reason why the Prophet(SAWS) was sent. If you were to tell any Muslim today, that wearing the two white garments during the period of hajj or umrah, ihraam, is not a part of Islam. Or that it is allowed for one to pray three sets instead of two for the fajer prayer. Or two sets instead of four for the 'Asr prayer, based on the claim that it is not found in the Qur'an, he/ she, and any other Muslim, would surely reject your claim. And on that basis comes the rest of the hundreds of things that are only mentioned in the Qur'an, yet not explained in detail (like the exact amount of zakaat, the exact way to conduct a umrah, etc.)

Looks like we've gone full circle again! So the best thing for me to say (since we will not agree on this matter) is you go your way and I'll go mine.

To guide you to the true path of Allah(SWT), is only in Allah's hands, not mine.

You have not convinced me that God tells us to follow the sunna of Muhammed, and likewise you are not in agreement with the verses I have quoted from the Quran.Enough now, we have to accept our disagreements and our different spiritual paths to God. I wish to serve God based on the Quran alone, as this is what I understand is the straight path.
Peace to you.

Allah(SWT) said in the Holy Qur'an: [59] O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.[4.59]

Allah(SWT) orders us, when in difference, to refer to him(SWT), and to his Messenger. This verse refers to all believer's. During the time of the Prophet(SAWS), and after the death of the Prophet(SAWS). We know this because the verse is 'aam, which means general. And that is the original meaning. For one to say that it only means the believers that existed in the time of the Prophet(SAWS) only, requires proof from the Qur'an, or the Sunnah. And that proof, i'm afraid, does not exist.

Proof that this verse refers to all believer's, is that Allah(SWT) orders all believers to refer themselves to Allah(SWT), as in the Qur'an, and the Prophet(SAWS), in time of difference. If the Qur'an, was the only source to refer to when Muslims differ, Allah(SWT) would have ordered to refer to the Qur'an alone, even in the time of the Prophet(SAWS). But he did not. He ordered to refer to both, (SWT). And the only way we can refer our differences to the Prophet(SAWS), today, is if we knew his Sunnah, example. And we do, walhamdulillah.

Also, Allah(SWT) when ordering us to refer to the Qur'an, he refers to himself(SWT). And we all know, that when Allah(SWT) refers to himself in the verse, he means the Qur'an, because Muslims can never actually refer themselves to Allah(SWT) when in difference. Likewise, Allah(SWT) used the term Prophet, meaning the Prophet(SAWS)'s example. Because even before his death, (SAWS), not all believers could refer themselves to the Prophet(SAWS). But his example ,(SAWS), was known and flourished, alhamdulillah.

The Prophet(SAWS) said:((I have left you two things, that you will never be lost if you hold on to them, the book of Allah and my example)) Authentic hadeeth.This is the interpretation, explanation, of the Prophet(SAWS), and it's the interpretation the comanions(RAA) followed and passed on to us. And Allah(SWT) has said: [115] If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that of the believers, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge![4.115] The Prophet(SAWS) has already warned us, in the authentic hadeeth, that a time is close, when people will reject what the Prophet(SAWS) has forbidden, with the excuse that it is not found in the Qur'an. He then goes on to saying, (SAWS): " for what the Prophet has forbidden, is what Allah has forbidden". How true all authentic hadeeth are. That time has truly come.

All in all, the miraculous nature of the Sunnah, the authentic hadeeth, is endless. Which is also proof of its divinity, and its authenticity. May Allah(SWT) protect it from harm, always.

May Allah(SWT) grant peace to all Muslims. Wasalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah.