Muslim: 'An Islamic perspective'

[Laila]

, sure. Btw, by speaking without knowledge you have forgotten your Islamic etiquette. Neither shall I, so stop it.

Oh dear, I've never made any personal comments to you. Even though our views our different I've never called you lost, ignorant, without knowledge etc........
Instead of hurling personal insults why don't you discuss in a calm manner. Is it too much to ask? Or is it because I'm a woman?

The companion's (RAA), that Allah (SWT) mentioned in the Qur'an as the best people, claim they saw the Prophet (SAWS) stone. "I certainly was'nt", lol, just come's to show you how some people think. So you have to be somewhere, or witness something for yourself to believe it's true? If kuffar have the same logic, which many do, then they have no reason to believe even in the Prophet(SAWS). Also, in that sense, how do we know anything about the Prophet(SAWS)?

Please give the reference from the Quran regarding your above statement(regarding the companions as the best people). You don't necessarily have to witness something yourself, but then you study the evidence..be that historical events, hadith, Quran etc.....
What evidence is there to support that the hadith (saying the companions observed the Prophet stone) is genuine?..........how many years later was this information transmitted? It most certainly doesn't fit the comport of the Prophet. Now, surely you can't deny that the Quran does not mention stoning. Are you saying God forgot to put stoning in the Quran?
We instantly need to reject the hadith on stoning as there is no Islamic basis for an archaic brutal punishment.

No, i certainly do not believe this is propoganda against the Prophet. Because i believe in hadeeth, and you don't. It would'nt be holy if the Prophet(SAWS) did'nt do it, whether they attach his name to it or not. To say stoning goe's against the Qur'an is plain fallacy. There are hundred's of things not mentioned in the Qur'an that will forever be part of Islam, insha'Allah. And stoning is one of them.

Well this is where we have to agree to disagree, and God will judge between us on j-day.

It's not about what they believe in, it's about what they witnessed. The companion's, who we are ordered to follow in the Qur'an, claim to have seen the Prophet(SAWS) stone.

Do the witness statements still stand when they were compiled a couple of centuries later?

No, you are truly lost for now knowing nothing about the principle's of interpreting the Qur'an, or knowledge of hadeeth. "Stoning is not a part of that path", oh and you know this how exactly? DO you propose we believe you, and not the thousand's of companion's who saw the Prophet(SAWS)? Wait, what about authentic hadeeth of the Prophet(SAWS) where he says that the zany and zaaniya mentioned in the Qur'an, are those who have not married. Should we disregard this hadeeth also?

Who is lost or not, let God decide.
We must disregard many of the hadith, as evidence from the Quran now proves the contrary. I have not said, however, that we disregard them all, so please refrain from repetitive questioning.

Listen to what God is telling me? Listen to what Allah(SWT) is telling you! [115] If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that of the believer's, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge![4.115]

Don't you think I follow the Quran? Is the verse telling me to follow hadith which were written a couple of centuries after the Prophet died?

Everything the Prophet(SAWS) did, is known to us. You believe that stoning is barbaric, and therefore, the Prophet(SAWS) did'nt do it. What about Jihad? What about the kuffar the Prophet(SAWS) killed during war? What about the other punishment's we are sure the Prophet(SAWS) carried out?

To fight oppresion that is justifiable. However, all the battles and blood shed that was carried out after the Prophet died - was it all justifiable? I think not. Don't worry I have read the history - before you tell me "I have no knowledge".

If you choose to disregard all this because you'd rather listen to your own self, that's what's going astray from the True path is. You are regarding and disregarding the things the Prophet(SAWS) did and said based on what you think is right or wrong.

Yep, I choose to disregard stoning, when you achieve the connection everything starts to fall in place and your understanding starts to become crystal clear. Of course you entitled to disagree with me and choose to believe whatever you consider Islam (along with the millions of muslims - thought I'd just add this in case I'm reminded yet again)
May God grant me more and more hikmah to follow the true path of Islam.

 

[Laila]

Of course it is. But wait, by following his example, (SAWS), are we not following the message of Allah? The Qur'an repeatedly says to understand the Qur'an, or return to the Qur'an, or consider the Qur'an with care, but follow the Prophet(SAWS). Following the Prophet(SAWS)'s example can never contradict the Qur'an.

Can it not? what about when the Prophet was reprimanded for getting something wrong? This is clearly evidenced in the Quran.
Also, what do you think about this post?
[3.144] And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels! he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.

And you know this how? How do you know that the Prophet(SAWS) did'nt order to follow something different from the Qur'an. You disregard all authentic hadeeth that say to follow him, (SAWS), and his companion's (RAA). He does'nt even have to (SAWS. Allah(SWT) did many time's by ordering us to follow the Prophet(SAWS) and the way of the believer's. Is that not enough for you?

I know because God makes it clear that the Prophet only came to deliver the clear message. So all hadith that say he did this and that, contrary to what is in the Quran, is dubious!
Following the Prophet/s = following the message of God, not additional scriptures written a couple of centuries later.

Hehe. Now i'm truly convinced you are lost. How do you know that the Prophet(SAWS) did'nt say anything to the people that threw rubbish on his head? How do you know that the Prophet(SAWS) did'nt tell the women off for putting thorns in his path? You know this how exactly? Is it mentioned in the Qur'an? Please enlighten us.
You are calling the same exact people who brought to us these hadith about the Prophet(SAWS) liar's!

I don't have a problem calling anyone a liar who says the Prophet practiced stoning. God reprimanded people who were against the Prophet; if there is support in the Quran for the hadith, the hadith should not be rejected. For example, the above mentioned thorn story:
[111.1] Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.
[111.2] His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.
[111.3] He shall soon burn in fire that flames,
[111.4] And his wife, the carrier of the thornbush kindling,
[111.5] Upon her neck a rope of palm-fibre.

These verses are both literal and idiomatic, as verse 4 is, an expression for the carrier of evil tales and slander.

I'm very glad you said this. I've been waiting for you to say it. Because your claim to accepting some hadeeth and not other's is plain .......... The way you choose and pick out certain hadeeth is just ....... Maybe now even you can uderstand that the system of authenticating hadeeth, is not by comparing it to the Qur'an. It's a whole system on it's own.

This is questionable in today's era.

This part of your post make's no sense at all. Justice come's from following the Prophet(SAWS). It does'nt come from what Laila believ'es or does not believe to be justice.

Justice comes from God.

The only reason i'm letting you get away with this is because i truly do not remember where i read stoning in the Bible. I'll post it asap. It's there. its something on the line's of "those who blaspheme's unto the Lord, stone him (them) to death".

Hold on, the statement you made was Jesus practiced stoning. I replied "he did not", or words to that effect.

Plus, what any Prophet(AAS) started, or stopped has no basis in Islam. We follow the final Prophet, Muhammed (SAWS), alone.

When religion is understand, a deep comprehension that all Prophet's preached the same message is understood. It is not the fault of the Prophet's if people chopped and changed, and all differences will be cleared by God alone.
Based on your last statement, are you doubting that I follow anything other than the Quran?

 

[Laila]

This brings forth a very important question. Does Laila accept the tha'eef, or unauthentic hadeeth, that does not contradict the Qur'an (her interpretations)? Why or why not? I mean, if Laila does accept them, then that just come's to show you that she's following her own path, not the True path. If not, then she should'nt accept any hadeeth, because she's disregarding the actual system of authenticating hadeeth.

Whatever Laila is following, or not following, God will judge, not you - since I do not judge you. I have nothing to fear, except God.

Exactly. Every law found in the authentic sunna, is Allah's law.

If you are out and out saying that stoning is the law of God you are entitled to believe it (with the millions of muslims like yourself), however, I disagree that it is.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

It seems Laila, that you'de rather answer vital questions by saying "Whatever Laila is following, or not following, God will judge, not you - since I do not judge you. I have nothing to fear, except God". Until you gain enough knowledge to answer the question's i ask honestly, then there's no need to go on with this discussion.

Peace

 

[Laila]

It seems Laila, that you'de rather answer vital questions by saying "Whatever Laila is following, or not following, God will judge, not you - since I do not judge you. I have nothing to fear, except God". Until you gain enough knowledge to answer the question's i ask honestly, then there's no need to go on with this discussion.

Peace

I'm sorry Champion, hand on your heart - have you answered my questions honestly?
What questions are you referring to/what would you like me to answer?
Do I accept hadith that don't fit with the Quranic message? No, a firm no.
The system/science of hadith was not created by God for me to believe it like I without reservation believe the Quran.

Happy New Year by the way - I think it's on 20/1/07.
Peace.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

I'm sorry Champion, hand on your heart - have you answered my questions honestly?
What questions are you referring to/what would you like me to answer?
Do I accept hadith that don't fit with the Quranic message? No, a firm no.
The system/science of hadith was not created by God for me to believe it like I without reservation believe the Quran.

Happy New Year by the way - I think it's on 20/1/07.
Peace.

Exactly how can you imply that i did not answer your questions with all honesty? Maybe my answers we're not honest enough for you, somehow. But at least i did answer, rather than skip the questions.

What questions? Please. Don't worry. After my exams are over, we'll get back at it.

 

[Laila]

Exactly how can you imply that i did not answer your questions with all honesty? Maybe my answers we're not honest enough for you, somehow. But at least i did answer, rather than skip the questions.

What questions? Please. Don't worry. After my exams are over, we'll get back at it.

Fair enough, if you have a valid point you must make it; unfortunately your posts up to now have not convinced me.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Salam Alaykom..

I didnt read the whole thread...seems too long and a hot one...
But Laila, from the few posts I have read, I think you misunderstand something...

The Prophet has left for us the reading (Quran) and the sunna (the way to God by following the Quran). God clearly states in the Quran follow my way (the word sunna is associated with God alone). You can follow the Prophet, because you have the Quran. Following the Prophet is obeying the message of God.

The sunna is not associated with God as you have mentiond...the Sunna is the prophets quotes (Hadith) and his acts...

and when we obey prophet Mohammed, we are following the Quran which says:'' Obey Allah and Obey the messenger''...I dont remember where exactly, but im sure about the verse...

Moreover, many of our details and Shari'aa are from the prophet not the Quran...
For instance, Quran doesnt tell you how to pray, or how to get married, or many other stuff that are only considerd in Hadith and prophets Acts which are called Sunna...

Prophet Mohammed said that we only can follow two references, the Quran and the Sunna, otherwise, we get missleaded..

I hope you got my point

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Fair enough, if you have a valid point you must make it; unfortunately your posts up to now have not convinced me.

Please tell me your are able to convince...cuz it seems like nobody convinces in the forums
Else, there will be no reason for this discussion...right?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Can it not? what about when the Prophet was reprimanded for getting something wrong? This is clearly evidenced in the Quran.
Also, what do you think about this post?
[3.144] And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels! he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.



I know because God makes it clear that the Prophet only came to deliver the clear message. So all hadith that say he did this and that, contrary to what is in the Quran, is dubious!
Following the Prophet/s = following the message of God, not additional scriptures written a couple of centuries later.


I don't have a problem calling anyone a liar who says the Prophet practiced stoning. God reprimanded people who were against the Prophet; if there is support in the Quran for the hadith, the hadith should not be rejected. For example, the above mentioned thorn story:
[111.1] Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.
[111.2] His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.
[111.3] He shall soon burn in fire that flames,
[111.4] And his wife, the carrier of the thornbush kindling,
[111.5] Upon her neck a rope of palm-fibre.

These verses are both literal and idiomatic, as verse 4 is, an expression for the carrier of evil tales and slander.


This is questionable in today's era.


Justice comes from God.



Hold on, the statement you made was Jesus practiced stoning. I replied "he did not", or words to that effect.

When religion is understand, a deep comprehension that all Prophet's preached the same message is understood. It is not the fault of the Prophet's if people chopped and changed, and all differences will be cleared by God alone.
Based on your last statement, are you doubting that I follow anything other than the Quran?

though it's wrong to only follow the Quran, since the Quran itself orders you to obey the TRUE Sunna as well...

You are suspecting the accuracy of the Sunna....but you don't know how Sunna is a very branched science, avery complicated one though, and it's an obvious insult to all these scientists to disrespect their effort to collect the well known acknoldged and the most accurate events in the prophet's life into what we call, the Sunna science...

You have a weak (no offense) knowledge combared to these scientists to start judging them this way...

I recommend you to read Abu Bolkary and other Hadith books, as well as Sunna collection books, and check the sources these scientists are using...It's a very accurate science, and you should read it ...

I would like to tell you, that I had your same point of view previously, before start learning about the science of Sunna, and discoverd the truth...

Notice that God will never order you to follow the prophet unless He knows his sunna will be here forever...

Also you must know that the sunna has levels of accuracy, and we apply them according to this accuracy, if the Hadith or event is a fundamental in the religion (like pray), we only follow the 100% accurate Sunna, if it can be a good quote only, then other levels of accuracy can be considerd, but not those of loos accuracy...

A last comment is, you obey God when following the prophet, and if (hypothetically) the Sunna was proven to be unaccurate, you dont carry any responsibilty, it's all carried by the scientists..
God judges you by your Nia (I dont know its translation, it's what you want to do, or what's your purpose for doing something), not only your acts...

May God show us the truth..

Thanks

 

[Laila]

Salam Alaykom..

I didnt read the whole thread...seems too long and a hot one...
But Laila, from the few posts I have read, I think you misunderstand something...


The sunna is not associated with God as you have mentiond...the Sunna is the prophets quotes (Hadith) and his acts...

and when we obey prophet Mohammed, we are following the Quran which says:'' Obey Allah and Obey the messenger''...I dont remember where exactly, but im sure about the verse...

Moreover, many of our details and Shari'aa are from the prophet not the Quran...
For instance, Quran doesnt tell you how to pray, or how to get married, or many other stuff that are only considerd in Hadith and prophets Acts which are called Sunna...

Prophet Mohammed said that we only can follow two references, the Quran and the Sunna, otherwise, we get missleaded..

I hope you got my point

wa alaikum assalam brother,

You're right it tells us in the Quran to obey God and the rasool (rasool meaning the message/messenger). By believing in one God and not associated partners with God and following the Quran we are fulfilling the clause of "Obey Allah and obey the messenger".

I couldn't find in the Quran where the word sunna is associated with Muhammad (SAWS) but the sunna of God is the only sunna:

Sunnata Allahi fee allatheena khalaw min qablu walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan (Surah 33 verse 62)

Istikbaran fee al-ardi wamakra alssayyi-i wala yaheequ almakru alssayyi-o illa bi-ahlihi fahal yanthuroona illa sunnata al-awwaleena falan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tahweelan (Surah 35 verse 43)

Sunnata Allahi allatee qad khalat min qablu walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan (Surah 48 verse 23)

Anything that doesn't fit in the 'divine source - the Quran' is dubious; and if it does fit in with the message of God...well then there is no complaint on my part. The original point of this thread is to prove that Stoning is an unislamic practice based on evidence from the Quran, which I have provided.

 

[Laila]

Please tell me your are able to convince...cuz it seems like nobody convinces in the forums
Else, there will be no reason for this discussion...right?

It's crucial to discuss from an islamic point of view - seeking knowledge is a responsibility upon us all. However if I've made a point using clear evidence from the Quran I expect anyone who refutes my point to convince me otherwise using clear evidence...right?

 

[Laila]

though it's wrong to only follow the Quran, since the Quran itself orders you to obey the TRUE Sunna as well...

Please quote the verse where the Quran tells me to obey the 'true?' sunna. Perhaps I'm wrong and I've missed something

You are suspecting the accuracy of the Sunna....but you don't know how Sunna is a very branched science, avery complicated one though, and it's an obvious insult to all these scientists to disrespect their effort to collect the well known acknoldged and the most accurate events in the prophet's life into what we call, the Sunna science...

I understand isnad/sanad; it would turn modern day anthropologists green with envy! However, it would be illogical to deny that things could not deviate from the original transmission. The language (in terms of terminology) of some of the hadith was not used in the time of the Prophet (bpuh).

You have a weak (no offense) knowledge combared to these scientists to start judging them this way...

Hey..I'm not judging anyone - it is not my place to judge.

I would like to tell you, that I had your same point of view previously, before start learning about the science of Sunna, and discoverd the truth...

Thanks for sharing...........however, I do know about the science of hadith and sister Peace (RF member) has also referred me to some sites..which I have read.

Notice that God will never order you to follow the prophet unless He knows his sunna will be here forever...

Can you explain then why the Prophet (pbuh) never sealed any of the hadith?

Also you must know that the sunna has levels of accuracy, and we apply them according to this accuracy, if the Hadith or event is a fundamental in the religion (like pray), we only follow the 100% accurate Sunna, if it can be a good quote only, then other levels of accuracy can be considerd, but not those of loos accuracy...

Again, you've got to admit that these levels of accuracy are man-made (meaning not from God)

A last comment is, you obey God when following the prophet, and if (hypothetically) the Sunna was proven to be unaccurate, you dont carry any responsibilty, it's all carried by the scientists..

Dear Brother we do carry the responsibility. It is our responsibility to understand what we are following. I'll get you the quote from the Quran if you don't believe this.

God judges you by your Nia (I dont know its translation, it's what you want to do, or what's your purpose for doing something), not only your acts...

May God show us the truth..

Thanks

Nia=intentions; your translation is good.
May God guide us and strengthen the ummah to follow the message of God.

 

[sister M]

Laila

I found something you wrote that I wonder about.

We must disregard many of the hadith, as evidence from the Quran now proves the contrary. I have not said, however, that we disregard them all, so please refrain from repetitive questioning.

Can you clarify what ahadith you regard as being useful and what ahadith you regard are not being useful?

 

[Laila]

Laila

I found something you wrote that I wonder about.


Can you clarify what ahadith you regard as being useful and what ahadith you regard are not being useful?

Welcome to RF Sister M, Assalam alaikum,
The hadith that have some basis in the Quran, the one's that have no basis (for example the one on stoning) I disregard. The Quran is divine-writ not the hadith; it is as simple as that.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Laila...I like your logic in debating...
I'm little bit busy right now, so Im not gonna reply on your post, but just wanted to show my admiration to it..

Best regards.....Slamo Alykom

 

[Laila]

Laila...I like your logic in debating...
I'm little bit busy right now, so Im not gonna reply on your post, but just wanted to show my admiration to it..

Best regards.....Slamo Alykom

Thanks - all praise be to Allah.
Speak to soon.

Peace and blessings.

 

[sister M]

Welcome to RF Sister M, Assalam alaikum,
The hadith that have some basis in the Quran, the one's that have no basis (for example the one on stoning) I disregard. The Quran is divine-writ not the hadith; it is as simple as that.

Wa alaikum assalam and thank you.
So the science of ahadith you disregard, if I understand you correctly?

 

[Laila]

Wa alaikum assalam and thank you.
So the science of ahadith you disregard, if I understand you correctly?

Who was isnad created by? how can I then believe in it when some of the hadith contradict the message of the Quran?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Just a quick post..

Who was isnad created by? how can I then believe in it when some of the hadith contradict the message of the Quran?

Actually, Isnad considres the Ahadith that contradicts with the Quran...and almost all of them have a weak Isnad, and are not taken into consideration...

Notice that it may has a strong isnad, but it's catagorized as a hadith which is related to a specific event, means it can not be applied in general, cuz it had certain circumstances...

see?...This science took in consideration many details, even more than you can imagine....people are doing PHD in this field!!