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Muslim: 'An Islamic perspective'
- Thread starter Laila
- Start date
EiNsTeiN
Boo-h!
If you are talking about that Hadith specifically, then I actually dont know its Isnad, but I think it's considerd a strong Hadith, but not really sureLaila said:
He didnt tell us to keep his quotes, yet it was kind of the most logical things the companions thought of...
It's normal, they lived with the prophet (pbuh), and listened to his words, so they started telling people about how the prophet lived, acted, as well as describing his manners to those who wished to be living in his age...
I find the idea very logic and innocent...
Can I ask you a question?....
We use quotes and proverbs through out our entire day, and we never argued about their origin, they are just inherited through generations, and I can claim they didnt change much...
Hadith reached us by the same manner, and was check by these scientisits...
It's too hard to prove a Hadith is wrong knowing the fact that may be 30 people or more existed while the prophet said it, and was transfered to generations via their grondfathers...
Scientists checked the validity of these Ahadith by also proving it happend infront of many people (if the source was not trusted enough)..
No, the Quran orders us to ask the people of knowledge and experiance in case we dont know...these people are responsible for answering religious questions, and they carry full responsiblity towards their answers...
And still waiting your quote
Yes!...thanks
Ameen
Laila
Active Member
EiNsTeiN said:If you are talking about that Hadith specifically, then I actually dont know its Isnad, but I think it's considerd a strong Hadith, but not really sure
If you read this thread the muslims say it is a sahih hadith. It doesn't tally with the Quran though does it?
I'm sure people like Bukhari acted in good faith, they were not influenced by the leaders or making money so therefore I don't doubt that they acted in good faith. However, from a logical point of view not all reciters of hadith acted in good faith and some even attributed a strong isnad to support them. Bukhari did reject many hadith.
What it comes down to is that human words and memory are fallible, the hadith can be treated by all means as a secondary source (in Islam) but they cannot be believed as one would believe in the Quran. I read them as it helps me understand the earlier days of Islam - mentalities and ideas etc.
Sorry what was the question? The hadith on stoning is considered sahih yet I cannot accept it as it blasphemes against the law in the Quran.
So to check if something is genuine yes look at the isnad but also look at what God has said - we have the greatest kitab (the Quran).
No, the Quran orders us to ask the people of knowledge and experiance in case we dont know...these people are responsible for answering religious questions, and they carry full responsiblity towards their answers...
And still waiting your quote
Sorry, I didn't realise you asked me for the quotes.
(from Surah 3)
66. Yawma tuqallabu wujoohuhum fee alnnari yaqooloona ya laytana ataAAna Allaha waataAAna alrrasoola
67. Waqaloo rabbana inna ataAAna sadatana wakubaraana faadalloona alssabeela
68. Rabbana atihim diAAfayni mina alAAathabi wailAAanhum laAAnan kabeeran
We are truly responsible and accountable for ourselves.
(from Surah 17)
36. Wala taqfu ma laysa laka bihi AAilmun inna alssamAAa waalbasara waalfu-ada kullu ola-ika kana AAanhu mas-oolan.
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
Point to be made. The authentication you're looking for Laila, you yourself, or any other Muslim for that matter, cannot give for the Qur'an. The Science of hadith is clear. The Prophet(SAWS)'s words, and actions (his example aka. sunna) were memorized and written down by the companion's (RAA). They were later on compiled as a whole. The same goes for the Qur'an. I've also posted many times the verses from the Qur'an where Allah(SWT) orders the Prophet to explain the Qur'an. And the Prophet (SAWS) did so with his words and actions. So obviously, it's vital that we inherit, or know the Prophet (SAWS)'s interpretations of the Qur'an.
You cannot accept some authentic hadith, and say that they in fact came from the Prophet (SAWS), yet reject other authentic hadeeth. You're contradicting yourself this way because the authentic hadeeth you're rejecting, have been authenticated exactly the same way the one's you're accepting have. I've asked before, what about weak hadeeth that do in fact go along with the Qur'an. Do you, or should we, accept that these we're the Prophet's words or actions?
You cannot accept some authentic hadith, and say that they in fact came from the Prophet (SAWS), yet reject other authentic hadeeth. You're contradicting yourself this way because the authentic hadeeth you're rejecting, have been authenticated exactly the same way the one's you're accepting have. I've asked before, what about weak hadeeth that do in fact go along with the Qur'an. Do you, or should we, accept that these we're the Prophet's words or actions?
Laila
Active Member
champion said:
The words of God in the Quran are also clear. The hadith are a human doing not a divine revelation.
The Quran was written in the time of the Prophet. Mathematics in the Quran prove that it is a divine revelation, without errors. God tells us in the Quran itself not to follow any other sayings (hadith).
I'm sorry brother Champion you can not put the hadith in the same category.
God does not tell the Prophet (bpuh) to explain the Quran, please provide this quote (from the Quran) if you think this is the case. I apologise if you already quoted it but I would like you to quote it again since I may have missed this.
God tells us clearly, in the Quran, that the Prophet (bpuh) came to deliver a clear message which God will teach and put into the heart of people.
We cannot accept any hadith as the ultimate truth about the actions of the Prophet. The ultimate truth is to be found in the QURAN ONLY. You asked me if I would accept a weak hadith that does not contradict the Quran. Since I believe that the Quran is the word of God then yes, if it does not contradict the Quran it cannot be wrong. However, the hadith (even if it is acceptable) can never hold the same footing as the verses in the Quran.
Brother champion the hadith on stoning is labelled a sahih (authentic) hadith but it goes against the laws in the Quran. I am not contradicting myself when I say that my check against something that I can accept or not accept is always against the backdrop of the Quran - this is not a contradiction.
lets_debate
Member
Homosexuality is prohibited in Islam. There is no doubt about it. Don't you remember what happened to the people of Prophet Lot? Homosexuality is a sin more graver than adultery. If a person has homosexual tendencies he/she should try their best to avoid to get into situations which arouse desires.
lets_debate
Member
Adding a little to my previous post. If a person is homosexual naturally, even then he/she should abstain from any homosexual behaviour. Ithink the main reason why some people are homosexual is because of hormonal imbalnces. Adding emphasis, homosexual relations are completely forbidden by Islam and strictly punishable by shari'ah.
Laila
Active Member
lets_debate said:
The first two posts make this point clear, did you bother to read them and understand what this thread is about? This thread is not about accepting homosexuality as acceptable practice in Islam (it is clear that it is not acceptable in Islam) but about not having the right to punish someone for being homosexual, it is between that person and God - we do not have a right to interfere or hurt someone because they are homosexual. It is not for us to judge and tell people to abstain, or treat them like dirt, it is their personal choice what they wish to do and on their conscious and accountability to God.
The shariah punishment, on stoning homosexuals, is wrong and against Quranic Law. Read the verses in the Quran, it does not give us permission to stone homosexuals.
sister M
Member
Laila
So you do not believe in sahih ahadith if I understand the inputs you have written since I raised the question some way back? Since obviously we cannot pick out and leave behind what does not please us, just we cannot do that with the Qur'an either. True?
What does this mean - mathematics? Does mathematic prove the authencity of the Qur'an given to us by Allah SWT or how should I understand what you have written? Does not the Qur'an itself prove it's own authencity? Do we need mathematics for that?
Laila
Active Member
sister M said:
uhmm...it's quite clear we cannot do that with the Quran. The hadith is not a divine revelation, it is a secondary source of information. You leave behind what does not please the revelations in the Quran.
If the sahih hadith tells me a different story/or piece of information from that which is in the Quran of course anyone who believes in the Quran should not believe in such a hadith, this is common sense. What do you have to say about the Quran telling us not to follow any other hadith (except for the Quran)?
The Quran authenticates itself. Every single verse in the Quran is there for a reason. When I wrote about maths, I was commenting on the maths in the Quran itself.
The intricate maths in the Quran can only point to it as being from God.
It was a statement to make a clear distinction between the Quran 'being the divine writ' and the hadith clearly not being in the same category.
lets_debate
Member
Sorry about that .. I didn't bother reading the other posts. I found a something relevant ..
Name of Questioner
www.IslamonLine.net
Name of Questioner
Ahmad - United Kingdom
TitleDeath Fall as Punishment for Homosexuality
QuestionRespected scholars of Islam, As-Salamu `Alaykum wa Rahamtu Allah wa Barakatuh. I have read in a newspaper that an Iranian man who was convicted of raping and killing his 16-year-old nephew is to be executed by being thrown off a cliff in sack; and if the man survives the fall down a rocky precipice, he will be hanged. What is your comment on this issue?
Date22/Jul/2002
TopicSexual perversity
Wa`alykum As-Salaam Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Dear brother in Islam, we do really appreciate your question, which shows how far you are interested in getting yourself well-aquatinted with Islam and its teachings. May Allah bless your efforts in the pursuit of knowledge!
First of all, it should be clear that this man committed two heinous crimes: 1) homosexuality, and 2) murder. Each crime is sufficient to warrant death penalty. In addition, this man has severed ties of kinship by seducing and killing his nephew.
The Glorious Quran is explicit in deciding the Hadd (legal penalty) for the crime of murder, when saying: O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder:
(Al-Baqarah: 178)
Homosexuality, moreover, is an abomination and a grave sin. In Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, clarifies the gravity of this abomination by saying: Allah curses the one who does the actions (homosexual practices) of the people of Lut repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers. Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shariah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand.
However, death fall is not the sole penalty agreed upon by the Muslim Jurists as a punishment for this crime. The punishment here is controversial due to divergence of views among `Ulama in deducting ruling as regards this case from Shari`ah sources.
Focusing more on the question in point, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh `Abdel Khaliq Hasan Ash-Shareef, states:
As regards this case (if genuine), this man committed two heinous crimes, which deserve severe punishment. He is a murderer and homosexual. Besides, he severed ties of kinship by doing such grave sins.
Death penalty (Qisas) is well established by the Quran in more than one verse. Allah, Most High, says: O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder:
(Al-Baqarah: 178)
As to the issue of how the homosexual person is judged in an Islamic State, the Companions of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessing be upon him differed among themselves on this issue, and this led to different views maintained by Muslim Jurists. For example, in the Hanafi school of thought, the homosexual is punished through harsh beating, and if he/she repeats the act, death penalty is to be applied. As for the Shafi`i school of thought, the homosexual receives the same punishment of adultery (if he/she is married) or fornication (if not married). This means, that if the homosexual is married, he/she is stoned to death, while if single, he/she is whipped 100 times. Hence, the Shafi`i compares the punishment applied in the case of homosexuality with that of adultery and fornication, while the Hanafi differentiates between the two acts because in homosexuality, the anus (a place of impurity) may also be involved while in adultery (and fornication), the penis/vagina (which are reproductive parts) are involved. Some scholars hold the opinion that the homosexual should be thrown from a high building as a punishment for his crime, but other scholars maintain that he should be imprisoned until death.
Based on the above fact, we can conclude that, the judge is invested with full discretion as to whether this man is to be thrown from a high place or not, as a punishment for his crime. However, if the man survives death fall, the judge has the right to sentence him to death.
Shedding more light on the legal penalty for homosexuality, Dr. Taha Jaber Al-`Alwani, President of the Graduate School of Islamic and Social Sciences and President of the Fiqh Council, states:
The scholars of this Ummah are in agreement - based on what has been revealed in the Quran and what has been authenticated in the Prophetic Tradition (Sunnah)- on prohibiting both behaviors (gayness and lesbianism) because in each of two actions there is an assault on the humanity of a person, destruction of the family and a clash with aims of the Lawgiver, one of which is the establishment of sexual instincts between males and females so as to encourage the institution of marriage.
Islam does not view sexual desire as the main aim of marriage; for marriage is a means to acquire tranquility and to actualize the love and mercy between spouses. Furthermore, it is a means for the survival of human kind and fostering a web of sound relations that aid in building sound families that constitute the smallest units for the society at large; this healthy society being the final aim of Islam.
Actually, humans are not animals controlled by their sexual instincts, answering the call of sexual desires every time it is aroused in them. Rather, it is their responsibility to know how they can orient this craving, which is a trust Allah has implemented in them, both male and female, in addition to the will and power to choose, a blessing Allah has bestowed on humans; all this is what distinguishes them from the rest of the creatures in that they orient their conduct and do what is good.
So, viewing (material) desires as aims in themselves is a deviation from ones natural disposition and a departure from the natural order. If the trend in the West is to legalize this conduct, it should be noted that such things did not materialize until after religious values had been diluted and had been changed to relative values that glorify individuality and make pleasures as an end and aim.
In Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, clarifies the gravity of this abomination by saying: Allah curses the one who does the actions of the people of Lut repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers. Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shariah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand. It has also been narrated from the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) that this crime deserves severe punishment more than that of adultery to insure its deterrence and restraint. Verily, the punishment here is the burning of both homosexuals (the actor and acted upon) or stoning them with rocks till death because Allah Most High stoned the people of Lut after demolishing their village.
As for lesbians, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said about them: "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses. The scholars mentioned that it is incumbent on the authority to enact a reprimand on lesbians that is fitting to the crime committed.
As for lesbians, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said about them: "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses. The scholars mentioned that it is incumbent on the authority to enact a reprimand on lesbians that is fitting to the crime committed.
It is true that some of the scholars disagreed with these punishments not because of doubt that these actions constitute a crime, but because of a lack of divine textual stipulation for a worldly punishment. But the actions of the Prophets Companions do indicate that in fact this crime has a worldly punishment, to be carried out by those in authority among the Muslims. The story of Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq when Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed wrote to him on this matter is famous and can be referenced in many sources.
[The story referred to above goes as follows:
"In his book Fat-h al-Qadir, the famous Hanafi scholar, Ibn al-Humam states:
Al-Bayhaqi reported in his book Shu`ab al-Iman on the authority of Abu ad-Dunya that Abd al-`Aziz ibn Abi Hazim related from Dawud ibn Bakr who related from Muhammad ibn al-Mukadir the following:
Khalid Ibn al-Walid wrote to Abu Bakr [seeking the legal ruling] concerning a man with whom another man had sexual intercourse. Thereupon, Abu Bakr gathered the Companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and sought their opinion. `Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, was the strictest of all, saying, 'Only one nation disobeyed Allah by committing such sin and you know how Allah dealt with them. I see that we should burn the man with fire. The Companions unanimously agreed on this. This incident is also mentioned by al-Waqidi under the subject of apostasy at the end of the section on the apostasy of Bani Salim.]
Allah Almighty knows best.
www.IslamonLine.net
Laila
Active Member
Salam brother lets debate, thank you for the essay.
The end of the letter states "Allah Almighty knows best", yes God knows and God has told us how to act, behave and what should be punished. This is clear in the Quran any additions to what is already in the Quran is following heresay. We have no right to throw someone off a cliff in a sack for being homosexual - my goodness!
Raping and killing is oppresion, it's murder please do not confuse this with homosexuals as they do not go round raping and killing. Since you want to debate please make your points clear rather than confuse two separate issues. We know what the punishment for oppression/murder is, it certainly is not throwing people off cliffs
The end of the letter states "Allah Almighty knows best", yes God knows and God has told us how to act, behave and what should be punished. This is clear in the Quran any additions to what is already in the Quran is following heresay. We have no right to throw someone off a cliff in a sack for being homosexual - my goodness!
Raping and killing is oppresion, it's murder please do not confuse this with homosexuals as they do not go round raping and killing. Since you want to debate please make your points clear rather than confuse two separate issues. We know what the punishment for oppression/murder is, it certainly is not throwing people off cliffs
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
Laila said:
A human doing? How can you call the words and actions of the Prophet(SAWS) "a human doing"? That doesn't make any sense. Do you mean that the compilement (i really dont know if thats even a word, hehe. Sorry.) of the hadeeth of the Prophet(SAWS) is a human doing? if so, then so is the Qur'an.
Laila said:
Wait, what does the Qur'an being a divine revelation, and mathemtics proving it, have anything to do with what we're talking about?
Please, prove that the Qur'an was written in the time of the Prophet(SAWS). Not to say i disagree. Allah(SWT) also tells us to follow the Prophet(SAWS). Allah(SWT) actually tells us, if we love him (SWT), we should follow the Prophet(SAWS).
Laila said:
[43] And before thee also the Messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
[44] (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.[16.43-44]
The message is clear. Yet some people choose to interpret it based on their own hawa, desire's. Thats why Allah(SWT also says:
[115] If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that of the believers, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge! [4.115]
Laila said:
The first sentence does make sense. If the Prophet said it, or did it, how can it not be truth. If you followed the Qur'an completely, you would realise following the Prophet(SAWS) is vital.
We'll get back to stoning as soon as we finish this discussion.
Laila
Active Member
champion said:
Did the Prophet make sure his words/actions were recorded before he died? No, he did not therefore his words/actions recorded in the hadith are second-hand information. (I was talking about the compiling)
The Quran clearly states that the Prophet was just a man. Was he not a human being?
He would not have been a messenger without the message would he?
The Quran was recorded (written) before the death of the Prophet. He left written instructions on which order to put the chapters in ( the Quran is not the Prophet's doing - it is from God). There is a big difference brother between hadith and Quran. One cannot put them into the same category!
since, you're trying to prove the hadith to be a divine-writ and I am strongly objecting to this.
Have you not read the Quran? You want proof you'll find it there, if you don't find it I'll come back and tell you. The Quran never says follow the sayings/doings of Muhammad (pbuh). It says obey the rasool (the rasool is the message/messenger).
Following Muhammad would be to worship one God and follow the Quran.
No where is the verses you have quoted does it say the messengers interpretations of the message must be followed. In fact it says that the scriptures are clear, the messengers are clearly delivering the scriptures.
Of course the Prophet is vital (what a silly thing to say) there would be no message with the messenger! If the Prophet recorded his sayings/doings as the truth I have no objection to accept them. If the Prophet's sayings/doings were part of the Quran again I would have no objection. However, they are not. The Prophet was not there (when the hadith was compiled) to say whether it was his saying/doing or not.
The Prophet himself will say "they have forsaken the Quran". Again this is in the Quran let me know if you want the quote.
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
Laila said:
No, maybe he did'nt make sure his words were compiled (SAWS), but he didn't make sure the Qur'an was compiled either. Second hand information? Now how does that work exactly?
And if he's considered just an ordinary man, he isn't being considered a Prophet now is he? Is a Prophet, an ordinary man?
Laila said:
You see. The information you have is one, incorrect. And two, stands on no evidence whatsoever. Please share with us where you got that the Prophet(SAWS) left instructions on which order to put the chapters? In fact, what really happened was that the companions (RAA) had already memorized the Qur'an in its final form. And they compiled it based on there memorization. The story of the compiling of the Qur'an is in there in full. You'll find it in the books of hadeeth.
I have already said, that the Qur'an, was in fact recorded seperately, by the companions(RAA), but it wasn't compiled until after the Prophet(SAWS)'s death. And the same thing goes for the Prophet (SAWS)'s sunna. It was somewhat recorded during his lifetime, (SAWS), yet compiled after his death.
Laila said:
Uhh, yeah. I think i have. Have you?
Oh yeah, i forgot. the Qur'an says to follow the Prophet(SAWS)'s orders, and forbids going against what he orders, tells us that we will find guidance in following him, and that if we truly love Allah(SWT) we should follow him, but doesn't tell us to follow his saying or doings. Right.
Plus. Who were the closest people to the Prophet(SAWS)? The closest people to the wahy? The companion's (RAA). And i think they would have more knowledge of interpreting the Qur'an, i mean, since they were there when it was revealed and all. Yet, you choose to ignore their interpretations.
Laila said:
Oh i know. It only says something on the lines of "we haven't sent you except to explain, or clarify, what we have sent to the People (the Qur'an)". But of course, Allah(SWT) ordering the Prophet(SAWS) to clarify the Qur'an, is not the same as ordering us to follow his clarifications.
Of course the Prophet is vital (what a silly thing to say) there would be no message with the messenger! Indeed a silly thing to say.
Oh i don't need you to quote the Qur'an for me. Thanks though. The Prophet(SAWS) wasn't there when it was compiled either. Same claims, same answers.
Laila
Active Member
champion said:
The Prophet did not make sure his sayings/doings were recorded before he died. He made sure the Quran was recorded before he died.
Second hand information meaning the hadith have not been recorded directly by the Prophet or his companions come to that! When I said the Prophet was just a man I meant that he was a human being who also made mistakes. Of course he has a higher status above other men because he was chosen by God to deliver the message of God.
[29.50] And they say: Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say (O Prophet): The signs are only with Allah, and I am only a plain warner.
[29.51] Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe
[75.16] Do not move your tongue (O Muhammad) in anticipation of Quran
[75.17] Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.
[75.18] Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.
[75.19] Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.
Brother, God takes responsibility for compiling the Quran.
When the Prophet died, he left the complete Quran written down in the chronological order of revelation, along with specific instructions as to where to place every verse. The divine instructions recorded by the Prophet were designed to put the Quran together into the final format intended for God's Final Testament to the world (75:17). The early Muslims did not get around to putting the Quran together until the time of Khalifa Rashed `Uthmaan. A committee was appointed to carry out this task.
[15.9] Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.
God, protects the Quran. The Quran is surrounded by invisible forces that guard and serve it.
13.39] Allah makes to pass away and establishes what He pleases, and with Him is the basis of the Book.
[13.40] And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business).
41.41] Surely those who disbelieve in the reminder when it comes to them, and most surely it is a Mighty Book:
[41.42] Falsehood shall not come to it from before it nor from behind it; a revelation from the Wise, the Praised One.
The Quran is taught by God, God teaches us what we need at the time we need it.
[55.1] The Beneficent God,
[55.2] Taught the Quran.
What do you say about the Quran telling us not to follow any other hadith besides the Quran?
To follow his orders based on what? His personal opinions or on the Quran? I think you'll find that following the Prophet is conditioned to following the Quran since the Prophet clearly followed the Quran alone.
[54.17] And certainly We have made the Quran easy to learn, does any of you wish to learn?
If it a necessity for every muslim to read and understand the Quran; they will be held accountable for themselves. One cannot say but we only followed the interpretations of the companions and expect that to be acceptable to God.
Of course we should follow the scriptures (Quran) that God gave us through Muhammed (pbuh). The Quran tells us not to follow any other scriptures except the Quran.
hehe, apologies I meant "without" the messenger. I should give myself more time to read what I have written rather than make slip-ups like this!
Fine, you go your way I'll go mine and God will tell us about that which we deviated on.
Laila
Active Member
There is nothing wrong with trying to imitate the sayings/doings of the Prophet. He is a role model like any other good person you would look up to and try to be like.
However, to attribute a particular saying/doing to a Prophet that we have 'unsure' knowledge about is treading down a dangerous line.
To say that the Prophet practiced stoning, goes against is good and kind nature. Not only does this go against the nature of the Prophet (pbuh) it also goes against the teachings of the Quran. The Prophet upheld the teachings of the Quran so to make such a statement about the Prophet, regardless of whether it is a hadith or not, is blasphemous.
The only truth we can count on is the facts and stories in the Quran. On a final note one cannot put the hadith into the same category as the Quran. The Quran is a divine-writ the hadith are not. One cannot follow any hadith (sahih or not) that speak of something different from that which is in the Quran.
The rest is up to you brother, you've read the Quran; you decide what God is telling us.
However, to attribute a particular saying/doing to a Prophet that we have 'unsure' knowledge about is treading down a dangerous line.
To say that the Prophet practiced stoning, goes against is good and kind nature. Not only does this go against the nature of the Prophet (pbuh) it also goes against the teachings of the Quran. The Prophet upheld the teachings of the Quran so to make such a statement about the Prophet, regardless of whether it is a hadith or not, is blasphemous.
The only truth we can count on is the facts and stories in the Quran. On a final note one cannot put the hadith into the same category as the Quran. The Quran is a divine-writ the hadith are not. One cannot follow any hadith (sahih or not) that speak of something different from that which is in the Quran.
The rest is up to you brother, you've read the Quran; you decide what God is telling us.
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
Laila said:
You keep changing your statement. I've already said that the Prophet(SAWS) did make sure the Qur'an was recorded before he died, (SAWS). He also made sure the sunnah was recorded before he died. I have authentic hadeeth to back up my claims. What do you have? He did not make sure the Qur'an or the sunnah was compiled into a book.
Laila said:
Where did i say that Allah(SWT) does not protect the Qur'an, or make sure the Qur'an was compiled? That does not go against the fact that the Prophet(SAWS) made sure his sunna was compiled in the hearts of the companions. Or that Allah(SWT) protected what explains/ interprets the Qur'an correctly, the sunnah.
Uhh, actually no. The Prophet(SAWS) did not leave any kind of written instructions for the companions. I don't know where you're getting your information. He did'nt have to. before he died (SAWS), he made sure the Qur'an (and the sunnah) was compiled in order, in the hearts of the companions (RAA).
Again, i have no idea where you're getting your information. The Qur'an was in fact put together by the "early muslims", companions (RAA). Once in the time of Abu Bakr (RAA)'s Khilafah. And the second, in the time of Uthmaan ibn Afaan (RAA)'s Khilafa.
Laila said:
You're using this incorrectly. Do you even know what hadith means in arabic? If you did, you wouldn't be asking this question.
Laila said:
Allah(SWT) does not mention what. You're assuming that when Allah(SWT) said follow the Prophet(SAWS), he meant follow the Qur'an. And thats something you'll have to provide proof for. The Prophet(SAWS) says otherwise.
Laila said:
Oh, he very much can. Allah(SWT): "Ask the people of the "thikr" (Qur'an) if you do not know".
Since they were closest to the Prophet(SAWS), asked about the interpretations of the verses of the Qur'an, were there when the wahy (revelation) was being sent down, i'de say they'd have the most correct interpretation's. I aslo think that they are the closest people to being the people of the "thikr", since Allah(SWT) and his Prophet(SAWS) call them the best of believer's.
Laila said:
Okay. This isn't an answer to the question at hand though.
Laila said:
No problem.
Laila said:
You're going to have to stop replying then.
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
Laila said:
No he's not. And i think, that if the Prophet(SAWS) was "like a role model or any other good person you would look up to and try to be like", Allah(SWT) would not make following him and his example, sunnah, the true sign of loving Allah(SWT). As mentioned in the Qur'an.
Laila said:
It is a dangerous line. But i'de say, you're on that same dangerous line for saying that the Prophet (SAWS) did not practice something he did in fact practice, based on 'unsure' knowledge.
The Prophet(SAWS) practicing stoning, or any other penalty Allah(SWT) has issued for a certain crime, does not go against his kind or good nature. Just as the destruction of a certain people for practicing homosexuality, by Allah(SWT), does not go against his kind and good nature.
It only goes against your interpretations, not teachings, of the Qur'an. Yes he did(SAWS), uphold the teachings of the Qur'an. He also cut off the hands of those who stole, which is a teaching in the Qur'an. Does that go against his kind and good nature?
Laila said:
Following the Prophet(SAWS) is a fact in the Qur'an, and a truth you should count on. We don't put the Qur'an and the Prophet's sunnah in the same category. But there is not one authentic hadeeth that goes against the Qur'an, or speaks of something different from that which is in the Qur'an. So, yeah.
Laila said:
Right back at you.
Laila
Active Member
champion said:
Any scholar of hadith will tell you that the hadith was not recorded during the time of the Prophet.
Who explains the Quran and puts it into the heart, you'll find from your reading of the Quran that it is God alone.
You'll find all your proof in the Quran brother, read and understand it. Alhamdulillaah.