-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Muslim: 'An Islamic perspective'
- Thread starter Laila
- Start date
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
Laila said:
I was just wondering Laila, why you consider stoning so inhumane and unfit to be a part of the spirit with Islam, yet you accept cutting off one's hand, crucifying, killing, cutting off one's lims, etc, to fit in with the nature or spirit of Islam? So in other words, why do you think it is you that gets to choose what the spirit of Islam is? So all of these things are kind, gentle, and caring, but stoning is not? How can that ever fit in into anyone's logic?
Secondly. FACT: Never shall we agree if you (and other Muslims) choose to disregard the sunna as the second authentic source of Islamic teachings. If you'd like, we can discuss that, then we'll get onto what ever come's later. Because stoning, the hijab being mandatory, etc, is all a part of the Sunna. If you choose to disregard it, and rely solely on the Qur'an, we can never agree.
Thank you
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
jamaesi said:
Hehe. Wow, just wow. You can compare pleasing Allah (SWT), to pleasing your future husband? Subhan Allah. What has the world come to? It has been proven that homosexuality is nothing more than a disease. It can be cured insha'Allah, like any other disease. The prophet (SAWS) said: to every daa' (disease) there is a dawa' (cure). Then we come the mentalities of people. If homosexual's, or any other person for that matter, is going to make homosexuality something to take pride in and call it natural and so on and so forth, then we'll never be able to get over it. But if people change their mentalities, like i advised you to do, to what pleases Allah (SWT) only, then we can achieve something.
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
fullyveiled muslimah said:
Sister fullyveiled, always to the rescue. I love it!
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
Homosexuality is not a disease. It is not a mental disorder. To cure homosexuality causes repression and mental damage in most cases. Look at the new research on homosexuality. It has genetic, biological, and chemical causes.
I can not change who I am. I likened it to changing my eye colour or growing a new set of arms because it is not going to happen. It can't.
I do not need to be cured. I do not need to change my mindset.
And I do NOT appreciate "scare tatics" and again, I am not here to be disrespected or mocked or told I am sick. I do not pass judgement on you as you all feel so free to do to me.
Laila
Active Member
champion said:
Salam Champion,
You don't have to agree with anything I say, follow the message of God. I am open to discussion not arguements when it comes to Islam. It is clear that God wants us to discuss the message but not bicker. If our views are different and we can't come to an agreement I will be the first person to back off, not because I am weak but out of respect for my faith. One must remember that another may have a different view but aims for the same destination. I accept and respect people who have different views to mine.
There is no me, you and other muslims, we are one Ummah; with the belief in One God. Let us not fall out over differences in comprehending the message, Allah will clear our differences on the day.
When did I ever say that I accept cutting off hands, crucifying...blah blah..?
I consider stoning to be inhumane as the upper limits of punishment are set in the Quran and stoning is not one of them.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
:no::no: you need to study the relgion more statements like this is fasiq. The prophet had a adulterer stoned to death. Musa pbuh had someone who broke the sabbath stoned to death. Here you go again if it is stated in the Quran you will accept it. IT IS IN THE HADITH. Let me ask you how do you pray. Just any kind of way or do you pray the way he prayed. How do you perform Hajj. And as I said earlier but somehow the truth just keeps going over your head. Allah prescribed death for them ie. the people of Lut. And what is good for Allah is good for His Messenger. His personality is beautiful yes but when you go against Allah and His commands the Prophet does not bend at all.Laila said:
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
Your view is irrelevant if you do not have an evidence from the Quran and Sunnah to back you up. That is your problem you are always giving your opinion instead of the opinion of Allah, His Messenger, and the companions.Laila said:
Yeah in essense but since you disregard the authority of His Messenger you are in essense denying Allah. I gave you all the evidence in my post and yet I have not seen any replies or rebuttals from you.
Well the Messenger did not so since you obviously disagree with his judgment even though Allah gave him the authority what does that say about you and what will your excuse be on the Day of Judgment "Well Allah I just do not agree with that" I would love to hear what it is exactly to deny something the Messenger did.When did I ever say that I accept cutting off hands, crucifying...blah blah..?
I consider stoning to be inhumane as the upper limits of punishment are set in the Quran and stoning is not one of them.
Laila said:When did I ever say that I accept cutting off hands, crucifying...blah blah..?
Well, this time you will have to disagree with the Quran.
[33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
[34] Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[38] As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in Power. Full of Wisdom.
[39] But if the thief repent after his crime, and amend his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah 5)
Is the Quran outdated to you or somthing, sister Laila?
These verses are clear and part of Islam because it's part of the Quran. Just because human rights didn't like it so we have to delete these verses from the Quran?
Or maybe to just ignore it and read it in prayers only as a traditional books which we don't need in our real modern civilied life !!! (God forbid).
We have several punishments in here but on the other hand, Allah is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
What does this supposed to mean?
Read verses 34 and 39 and you will know the answer. As Allah wants us to punish those who comitted these crimes but at the same time each verse whichd eal with these punishments you will find the forgivness of Allah and to ask those who commit sin to repent to God as long as the authorities didn't have a power over them (catching them) because it's after all, it's about the safty of the society from any evil but if someone went back to God and repent so "God willing", Allah will forgive him if that person was honest in his repentance to God.
Punishments are not for revenge but to clean the society from any harm so if any homosexual wanted to be saved from any punishments in Muslim countreis (which apply islamic law) so he/she must keep his homosexuality for him/her self and no one will bother him/her but if this person wanted to spread this act amongest people to be like him/her so in this case, he/she must be stopped from doing so.
[19] Those who love (to see) scandal published broadcast among the Believers, will have a grievous Penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: Allah knows, and ye know not. (Surah 24)
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
Only if you agree with Allah and His Messenger those who disagree well we don't need to go into details but their abode is Hellfire. Tell that it is better to agree to disagree to the Disbelievers. You think that is an excuse to agree to disagreejamaesi said:
So you do not like being told things even if it is the truth from your Lord Allah and His Rasul, you sound like the kuffar of Quraish.
Laila
Active Member
I used to wear traditional 'Arabic' Hijab whilst at University during the age of 19-20; I really have seen both sides. When I went home at the end of term I was really excited, I thought my father would be really proud of me. Anyway, no one reacted (mum or dad). Throughout dinner we just talked about the modules I was studying, laboratory assignments etc....I must admit, I was really surprised; so later on that same evening I asked my father what he thought about the new me.
He said "Laila, you need to live, 'live Islam' I'm proud of you.
I joined the 'Islamic society' at University, and started hanging around with the same group of people I'd met at the society. The first few months passed away quickly and nicely. Then I started noticing - some Muslim brothers being very disrepectful towards Muslim sisters who did not wear the head scarf. Muslim brothers being disrespect to me, even though I was wearing the full hijab, just because I'm a women. The final straw the following year (same academic year) was when one of the brothers from the society kept hassling me about getting married or at least getting to know each other. I didn't go to University to date, I wanted to study.
All I noticed from the society was a big book of don't do's. I was told I was a bad Muslim for not thinking about marriage, then this boy started getting quite nasty. I couldn't stand it any longer and decided to revert back to wear what I used to (which was always modest dress- thanks to my mum). I stopped going to the society when I was called a 'slag' (not by everyone- but it only takes one) for not wearing a head scarf.
The next visit home, I was clearly upset. My father spoke to me at length and I asked him why he didn't tell me, that what I wore was just cultural if he already knew!
He said "My girl, you were on the road to discovery. Learn the Quran and understand the message of Allah to be able 'to live Islam. You were not in error, I would have corrected you if you had brought a boy home"
The following day he took me to my first Sufi circle.
I submit to Allah from the deepest depths of my heart. I am nothing without Islam.
Every one of us will be accountable for our deeds so it is imperative to study the Quran.
He said "Laila, you need to live, 'live Islam' I'm proud of you.
I joined the 'Islamic society' at University, and started hanging around with the same group of people I'd met at the society. The first few months passed away quickly and nicely. Then I started noticing - some Muslim brothers being very disrepectful towards Muslim sisters who did not wear the head scarf. Muslim brothers being disrespect to me, even though I was wearing the full hijab, just because I'm a women. The final straw the following year (same academic year) was when one of the brothers from the society kept hassling me about getting married or at least getting to know each other. I didn't go to University to date, I wanted to study.
All I noticed from the society was a big book of don't do's. I was told I was a bad Muslim for not thinking about marriage, then this boy started getting quite nasty. I couldn't stand it any longer and decided to revert back to wear what I used to (which was always modest dress- thanks to my mum). I stopped going to the society when I was called a 'slag' (not by everyone- but it only takes one) for not wearing a head scarf.
The next visit home, I was clearly upset. My father spoke to me at length and I asked him why he didn't tell me, that what I wore was just cultural if he already knew!
He said "My girl, you were on the road to discovery. Learn the Quran and understand the message of Allah to be able 'to live Islam. You were not in error, I would have corrected you if you had brought a boy home"
The following day he took me to my first Sufi circle.
I submit to Allah from the deepest depths of my heart. I am nothing without Islam.
Every one of us will be accountable for our deeds so it is imperative to study the Quran.
Laila
Active Member
The Truth said:
Salam Brother TT,
Let me clear two things:
1. I have always maintained that the Quran is for all times and all societies.
2. I never said "homosexuality should be spread"; I said "homosexuals should not be killed, or abused in any way" I have made my thoughts about homosexuality very clear and I do not wish to discuss this topic anymore.
Let us look at Surah 5 verses 38-39: I understood this as cutting the hand of the thief but that was 12 years ago. Then I thought, well if a thief has his/her hands severed how can they then contribute to society? or feed their family? and even when they repent their hand is lost for life! It didn't make sense.
5.38] And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[5.39] But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
The first observation when looking at these verses is that the word (qat'a) which is translated as 'cut' can also mean 'stop' (29:29, 13:25).
The Arabic word <eqtau> means "cut" while <aydiyahuma> refers to "the (three or more) hands of the male and female thief". Thus the expression <eqtau> <aydiyahuma>, in aya 5:38 above, stands literally for "cut their (three or more) hands." Therefore, 5:38 reads literally:
5:38, "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut their (three or more) hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise."
No one person has three or more hands!
The second observation is that (yad) which is translated as 'hand' can also mean 'resource' (38:45). The third observation is that the words 'cut & hand' also occur together elsewhere in the Quran to give the meaning of 'marking the hand' (12:31).
[12.31] So when she heard of their sly talk she sent for them and prepared for them a repast, and gave each of them a knife, and said (to Yusuf): Come forth to them. So when they saw him, they deemed him great, and cut their hands (in amazement), and said: Remote is Allah (from inperfection); this is not a mortal; this is but a noble angel.
We could conclude that 'marking the hand of the thief' is the proper context for 5:38, not severing it, and it still retains the meaning of the words used.
However, we find a 'live example' of theft being given in Surah 12...The story of Joseph.
[12.70] So when he furnished them with their provisions, (someone) placed the drinking cup in his brother's bag. Then a crier cried out: O caravan! you are most surely thieves.
[12.71] They said while they were facing them: What is it that you miss?
[12.72] They said: We miss the king's drinking cup, and he who shall bring it shall have a camel-load and I am responsible for it.
[12.73] They said: By Allah! you know for certain that we have not come to make mischief in the land, and we are not thieves.
[12.74] They said: But what shall be the requital of this, if you are liars?
[12.75] They said: The requital of this is that the person in whose bag it is found shall himself be (held for) the satisfaction thereof; thus do we punish the wrongdoers.
[12.76] So he began with their sacks before the sack of his brother, then he brought it out from his brother's sack. Thus did We plan for the sake of Yusuf; it was not (lawful) that he should take his brother under the king's law unless Allah pleased; We raise the degrees of whomsoever We please, and above every one possessed of knowledge is the All-knowing one.
[12.77] They said: If he steal, a brother of his did indeed steal before; but Yusuf kept it secret in his heart and did not disclose it to them. He said: You are in an evil condition and Allah knows best what you state.
[12.78] They said: O chief! he has a father, a very old man, therefore retain one of us in his stead; surely we see you to be of the doers of good.
[12.79] He said: Allah protect us that we should seize other than him with whom we found our property, for then most surely we would be unjust.
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
jamaesi said:
Listen, before commenting on your above post, i'de just like to say, please CALM DOWN. I mean, we're talking through a PC. How could i possibly be using scare tactics? It's not like my hand is going to come out your screen and smack you or anything. PLus, Alhamdulillah, when a person has knowledge of their religion, they don't need to use "scare tactics" in order to prove a point. I did'nt say you were sick, nor did i disrespect you in anyway. I just disagree with what you're saying. Alright?
Listen. If homosexuality was not a disease, then why did Allah (SWT) punish the people of Lut? The verses of the Holy Qur'an concerning the people of Lut are mentioned several times in this thread. So? What's your answer to this? If Allah (SWT) created homosexual's, then why would he punish them for doing what is only natural to their kind?
Never did i say there was a cure for homosexuality. Well, not yet. And i have no idea what side effects there are when trying to cure these people, but thats only because people are no longer looking for ways to cure homosexuality. Rather, they are researching ways to prove that its natural. People around the world have started to let go because they don't want to tire themselves trying to look for a cure to this disease, but they would rather relax and say that this is natural. And that why should we tire ourselves trying to find a cure for these people, when they themselves don't want a cure..? This is the mentality that Islam rejects.
Also. So are you saying you agree to what Laila is saying? As in, they have the right to live as homosexual's, but, they can't sleep with other man, and cannot become leaders of countries, etc...? I don't think that any homosexual would agree to staying/ becoming a muslim on those terms (Laila mentioned the terms, she got from who knows where, in her first or second post). I think that homosexuals have the right to be cured, not told what to do by people who have no understanding of their pain (if they acknowledge that there is something wrong with them).
I cannot say that i would know how a homosexual that believes he has a problem must feel. I feel very sorry for them, and pray that Allah (SWT) has mercy on them, if they have patience. Islam is gentle with those who have faith in Allah (SWT). This is life is a test for the next one. The harder this life is for the believer, the better. He will be rewarded insha'Allah for his patience, for Allah is with those who are patient.
Laila
Active Member
Let us look at Surah 12;
[12.37] He said: There shall not come to you the food with which you are fed, but I will inform you both of its interpretation before it comes to you; this is of what my Lord has taught me; surely I have forsaken the religion of a people who do not believe in Allah, and they are deniers of the hereafter:
[12.38] And I (Yusuf) follow the religion of my fathers, Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub; it beseems us not that we should associate aught with Allah; this is by Allah's grace upon us and on mankind, but most people do not give thanks:
[12.76] So he began with their sacks before the sack of his brother, then he brought it out from his brother's sack. Thus did We plan for the sake of Yusuf; it was not (lawful) that he should take his brother under the king's law unless Allah pleased; We raise the degrees of whomsoever We please, and above every one possessed of knowledge is the All-knowing one.
It is clear from the above verses that they were not following the king's law to punish the thieves but rather the law of God
12.74] They said: But what shall be the requital of this, if you are liars?
[12.75] They said: The requital of this is that the person in whose bag it is found shall himself be (held for) the satisfaction thereof; thus do we punish the wrongdoers.
As such, you are detaining the thief from his/her job of theft, and making them remain in prison or as a worker until the person 'repents and reforms
First the presumed thieves were given the chance to come forward, acknowledge their wrongdoing, and then give back what they have stolen. Second, if they do not do so, they must be proven as thieves. Then, what was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Thieves should work to repay the fees involved in the whole process. They should also work to repay what was stolen in case they do not give it or the whole of it back. This process put in application the theft punishment stated in 5:38 that is to cut off from the thieves resources and power. It leaves also the door open for thieves to repent and reform as God states in 5:39.
so [5:38] is translated/interpreted as:
"The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut off from their resources and power as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise."
This makes sense; it goes as follow. Chance should be given to the thieves to come forward, acknowledge their crime, and give back what they have stolen to the victims. If they do not come forward, prove should be found who are the thieves. Thieves should then work to pay the fees involved for the whole thing. What was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Otherwise, thieves should work for them until what they have stolen is repaid.
[12.37] He said: There shall not come to you the food with which you are fed, but I will inform you both of its interpretation before it comes to you; this is of what my Lord has taught me; surely I have forsaken the religion of a people who do not believe in Allah, and they are deniers of the hereafter:
[12.38] And I (Yusuf) follow the religion of my fathers, Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub; it beseems us not that we should associate aught with Allah; this is by Allah's grace upon us and on mankind, but most people do not give thanks:
[12.76] So he began with their sacks before the sack of his brother, then he brought it out from his brother's sack. Thus did We plan for the sake of Yusuf; it was not (lawful) that he should take his brother under the king's law unless Allah pleased; We raise the degrees of whomsoever We please, and above every one possessed of knowledge is the All-knowing one.
It is clear from the above verses that they were not following the king's law to punish the thieves but rather the law of God
12.74] They said: But what shall be the requital of this, if you are liars?
[12.75] They said: The requital of this is that the person in whose bag it is found shall himself be (held for) the satisfaction thereof; thus do we punish the wrongdoers.
As such, you are detaining the thief from his/her job of theft, and making them remain in prison or as a worker until the person 'repents and reforms
First the presumed thieves were given the chance to come forward, acknowledge their wrongdoing, and then give back what they have stolen. Second, if they do not do so, they must be proven as thieves. Then, what was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Thieves should work to repay the fees involved in the whole process. They should also work to repay what was stolen in case they do not give it or the whole of it back. This process put in application the theft punishment stated in 5:38 that is to cut off from the thieves resources and power. It leaves also the door open for thieves to repent and reform as God states in 5:39.
so [5:38] is translated/interpreted as:
"The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut off from their resources and power as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise."
This makes sense; it goes as follow. Chance should be given to the thieves to come forward, acknowledge their crime, and give back what they have stolen to the victims. If they do not come forward, prove should be found who are the thieves. Thieves should then work to pay the fees involved for the whole thing. What was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Otherwise, thieves should work for them until what they have stolen is repaid.
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
Laila said:
Fear Allah sister Laila. You left what is right because a boy would'nt get off your back. You would rather listen to the words of people rather than the words of the Prophet (SAWS). You would rather interpret the Qur'an your way, and with your understanding rather than believing the thousands of companions that brought to us the interpretation of the Prophet (SAWS). And you are a "Sufi Sunni"...?
- [115] If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows other than the believer's way , We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge!
It is imperative to study the Qur'an and Sunna. The thousands of authentic hadeeth explaining the Qur'an is the only way to go. Allah (SWT) said in the Holy Qur'an:
- [3] Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. [4] It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. [53.3]
- [80] He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah; but if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). [4.80]
- [31] Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [3.31]
Laila
Active Member
champion said:
Thank you for the caution Brother Champion but the neccesity of covering your hair is not part of Islam. I never said "I am against the Sunnah of the Prophet" but this is not the literal word of Allah.
........and I stopped working traditional 'Arabic' dress because of everything I noticed, and now I understand it is culture!
Laila
Active Member
champion said:
Yes I agree, we do ijtihad using the Noble Quran and Sunna
See post 52 in quoted thread
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38630&page=6
AbuQuteiba
Active Member
Laila said:
I know. Its not a neccesity according to you, but it is according to the Prophet :cover: . So? Who ever said it was. But it is a wahy, divine revelation. It does not, and will never contradict the Qur'an. "Nor does he speak out of desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him (it is naught but revelation that is revealed)" [53.3].
Rejecting the sunna, is one way or another rejecting the Qur'an. And i think i and every true muslim, would rather follow the belivers that Allah (SWT) uplifted in his Holy Book and said (about them): "And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who follow them in all goodness ( in all good deeds) Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph" [9.100]