Muslim: 'An Islamic perspective'

[AbuQuteiba]

Thank you for the caution Brother Champion but the neccesity of covering your hair is not part of Islam. I never said "I am against the Sunnah of the Prophet" but this is not the literal word of Allah.

I know. Its not a neccesity according to you, but it is according to the Prophet :cover: . So? Who ever said it was. But it is a wahy, divine revelation. It does not, and will never contradict the Qur'an. "Nor does he speak out of desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him (it is naught but revelation that is revealed)" [53.3].

Rejecting the sunna, is one way or another rejecting the Qur'an. And i think i and every true muslim, would rather follow the belivers that Allah (SWT) uplifted in his Holy Book and said (about them): "And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who follow them in all goodness ( in all good deeds) Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph" [9.100]

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Yes I agree, we do ijtihad using the Noble Quran and Sunna

See post 52 in quoted thread
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38630&page=6

Not all parts of Islam are open to ijtihad. Plus, you can't interpet the Qur'an the way you see fit, validate you interpretation over the Prophets', then call it ijtihad.

 

[Laila]

Well, this time you will have to disagree with the Quran.

[33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

[34] Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

The literal translation of the verses in Surah 5 would be (and please note that this is still work in progress);

33. Innama jazao allatheena yuhariboona Allaha warasoolahu wayasAAawna fee al-ardi fasadan an yuqattaloo aw yusallaboo aw tuqattaAAa aydeehim waarjuluhum min khilafin aw yunfaw mina al-ardi thalika lahum khizyun fee alddunya walahum fee al-akhirati AAathabun AAatheemun
34. Illa allatheena taboo min qabli an taqdiroo AAalayhim faiAAlamoo anna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

A simple translation:
"the only reward (of) those who wage war (against) Allah and His Messenger and spread in the Earth mischief (is) that they are slained or they are cruicified or cut off their hands and their feet from opposite or be exhiled from the land that for them (is) disgrace in (this) World and for them in the Hereafter torment (is) a great except those who repented before that you have power over them so you (should) know that Allah (is) All-Forgiving Most Merciful."


The term "messenger" is evidently generic in this context. By " making war on God and His messenger" is meant a hostile opposition to, and wilful disregard of, the ethical precepts ordained by God and explained by all His messengers, combined with the conscious endeavour to destroy or undermine other people's belief in God as well.
In classical Arabic idiom, the "cutting off of one's hands and feet" is often synonymous with "destroying one's power", and it is possibly in this sense that the expression has been used here.
Most of the classical commentators regard this passage as a legal injunction, and interpret it, therefore, as follows; "the recompense of those who make war on God and His messenger and spread corruption on Earth shall be slain, or crucified, or that their hands and feet be cut off on opposite sides, or that they shall be banished from the Earth: such shall be their ignominy in this world".
This interpretation is, however, in no way warranted by the text, and this for the following reasons;
1)The four passive verbs occurring in this sentence - "slain", "crucified", "cut off" and "banished" - are in the present tense and do not, by themselves, indicate the future or, alternatively, the imperative mood.
2)The form yuqattaloo does not signify simply "they are being slain" or (as the commentators would have it) "they shall be slain", but denotes - in accordance with a fundamental rule of Arabic grammar - "they are being slain in great numbers", and the same holds true of the verbal forms yusallaboo (they are being crucified in great numbers) and tuqatta'a (cut off in great numbers). Now if we are to believe that these are "ordained punishments", it would imply that great numbers - but not necessarily all - of "those who make war on God and His messenger" should be punished in this way. Obviously an inadmissable assumption of arbitrariness on the part of the Divine law-giver. Moreover, if the party "waging war on God and his messenger" should happen to consist of one person only, or a few, how could a command referring to "great numbers" be applied to them or to him?
3) Furthermore, what would be the meaning of the phrase, "they shall be banished from the earth", if the above verse is to be taken as a legal injunction? This point has, indeed, perplexed the commentators considerably . Some of them assume that the transgressors should be "banished from the land of Islam", but there is no instance in the Quran of such a restricted use of the term ard (earth). Others, again, are of the opinion that the guilty ones should be imprisoned in a subterranean dungeon, which would constitute their "banishment from (the face of) the earth"!

 

[Laila]

CONTINUATION FROM POST 43.

Finally -and this is the weightiest objection to an interpretation of the verses discussed as a "legal injunction" - the Quran places exactly the same expressions referring to mass-crucifixation and mass-mutilation (but this time with a definite intent relating to the future) in the mouth of Pharoah, as a treat to believers (Surah 7:124 Surah 20:71 Surah 26:49)

[7.124] I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then will I crucify you all together.
[20.71] (Firon) said: You believe in him before I give you leave; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you enchantment, therefore I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will certainly crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and certainly you will come to know which of us is the more severe and the more abiding in chastising.
[26.49] Said he: You believe in him before I give you permission; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you the magic, so you shall know: certainly I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and certainly I will crucify you all.

Since Pharaoh is invariably described in the Quran as the epitome of evil and godlessness, it is inconceivable that the same Quran would promulgate a divine law in precisely the terms which it attributes elsewhere to a figure characterized as an "enemy of God".
In short, the attempt of the commentators to interpret the above verse as a "legal injunction" must be categorically rejected, however great the names of the persons responsible for it.

 

[jamaesi]

Listen, before commenting on your above post, i'de just like to say, please CALM DOWN. I mean, we're talking through a PC. How could i possibly be using scare tactics? It's not like my hand is going to come out your screen and smack you or anything. PLus, Alhamdulillah, when a person has knowledge of their religion, they don't need to use "scare tactics" in order to prove a point. I did'nt say you were sick, nor did i disrespect you in anyway. I just disagree with what you're saying. Alright?

I am deadly calm, my dear. Of course, I tend to get a little ticked off when people are rude to and judge me. I also get a little touchy when people imply I do not believe in G-d.

And excuse me? Threatening me with hell and planning a post on the horrors of Hell isn't a scare tactic? If the only reason I am "good" is because I am afraid to go to Hell my faith is pretty insincere.

Listen. If homosexuality was not a disease, then why did Allah (SWT) punish the people of Lut? The verses of the Holy Qur'an concerning the people of Lut are mentioned several times in this thread. So? What's your answer to this? If Allah (SWT) created homosexual's, then why would he punish them for doing what is only natural to their kind?

There is disagreement if the "sin of Lut" was indeed, homosexuality, or something different like inhopsitality. And again, this all depends on how literally you take these stories.

Never did i say there was a cure for homosexuality. Well, not yet. And i have no idea what side effects there are when trying to cure these people, but thats only because people are no longer looking for ways to cure homosexuality. Rather, they are researching ways to prove that its natural. People around the world have started to let go because they don't want to tire themselves trying to look for a cure to this disease, but they would rather relax and say that this is natural. And that why should we tire ourselves trying to find a cure for these people, when they themselves don't want a cure..? This is the mentality that Islam rejects.

They have stopped researching it as a disease because it ISN'T. If it was a disease or sickness then would I be able to call my professors and go "Hi, yep, I'm still queer so I won't be coming to class today, you know, being sick and all. I better get credit when I am not there!"

From the American Psychological Association's Statement on Homosexuality.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.
Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice. Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture. Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores. Research findings suggest that efforts to repair homosexuals are nothing more than social prejudice garbed in psychological accouterments.
[/FONT]

Also. So are you saying you agree to what Laila is saying? As in, they have the right to live as homosexual's, but, they can't sleep with other man, and cannot become leaders of countries, etc...? I don't think that any homosexual would agree to staying/ becoming a muslim on those terms (Laila mentioned the terms, she got from who knows where, in her first or second post). I think that homosexuals have the right to be cured, not told what to do by people who have no understanding of their pain (if they acknowledge that there is something wrong with them).

We don't have the "right to be cured." We have the right to live how lives how we see fit. And there is NOTHING wrong with me.

I cannot say that i would know how a homosexual that believes he has a problem must feel. I feel very sorry for them, and pray that Allah (SWT) has mercy on them, if they have patience. Islam is gentle with those who have faith in Allah (SWT). This is life is a test for the next one. The harder this life is for the believer, the better. He will be rewarded insha'Allah for his patience, for Allah is with those who are patient.

I'm gay and I believe in G-d and I know he loves me. And that's the end of that.

 

[Laila]

CONTINUATION FROM POST 44 - please note that this is work in progress.

On the other hand, a really convincing interpretation suggests itself to us at once as soon as we read the verse- as it ought to be read- in the present tense. For, read in this way, the verse reveals itself immediately as a statement of fact - a declaration of the inescapability of the retribution which "those who make war on God" bring upon themselves. Their hostility to ethical imperatives causes them to lose sight of all moral values; and their consequent mutual discord and "perverseness" gives rife to unending strife among themselves for the sake of wordly gain and power.

They kill one another in great numbers, and torture and mutilate one another in great numbers, with the result that whole communities are wiped out or, as the Quran puts it, "banished from (the face of)the earth", and lastly, the fact that these horrors are expressed in the terms used by Pharoah, the enemy of God.

[5.34] Except those who repent before you have them in your power(1); so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

1. for example, before belief in God and in the ethical principles decreed by Him becomes prevalent. For, in that event, repentance on the part of "those who make war on God and His messenger" would be no more than an act of conforming to the dominant trend and, therefore, of no moral value whatever. It is noted that the exemption from suffering relates to the hereafter.

 

[Laila]

Not all parts of Islam are open to ijtihad. Plus, you can't interpet the Qur'an the way you see fit, validate you interpretation over the Prophets', then call it ijtihad.

Aye up..........I've never said they are all open to ijtihad.

I have said, previously, "The beauty of Islam is the ease of understanding, the Noble Quran is clear. Some verses are not open to interpretation, some verses only apply to a particular time and place, most verses apply to all times and places (ie. modesty) and of these verses some are open to interpretation"

 

[Laila]

I know. Its not a neccesity according to you, but it is according to the Prophet :cover: .

Time-bound, discussed in the 'to wear a head cover or not' thread.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I am going to post some ahadith on women covering themselves. These women would be the female companions of the Prophet (saw). They are as follows:

Narrated Thabit Ibn Qays:

A woman called Umm Khalid came to the prophet while she was veiled. She was searching for her son who had been killed. Some of the companions said to her: You have come here asking for your son while veiling your face? She said if I am afflicted with the loss of my son then I will not suffer the loss of my modesty....... (abu dawud book 14 hadith 2482)

Narrated Aisha:

Saffiyah daughter of Shaybah said that Aisha mentioned the women of Ansar, praised them and said good things about them. She then said: When Surat an-Nur was revealed, they took the curtains tore them and made head covers of them. (abu dawud book 32 hadith 4089)

Narrated Safiyyah bint Shaybah:

Aisha used to say: "When the verse: 'They should draw their veils over their their necks and bosoms' was revealed, (the ladies) cut their wast sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces. (sahih bukhari book 6 vol 60 hadith 282)

Narrated Aisha:

The prophet said: Allah does not accept the prayer of a woman who has reached puberty unless she wears a veil. (abu dawud book 2 hadith 641)


These are but a few of many ahadith about veiling. We can see here that not only was the hair covered, but they understood it to mean the face as well. So if the sahabi women were covering their faces, do you think they left their hair out? Or is that they misunderstood the verses? Perhaps they were relying on the culture of the time? If it were according to custom, then the prophet would have corrected them in covering themselves. Perhaps they along with the prophet did not fully comprehend the meaning and purport of the verses. We can see from these hadith that Aisha refers specifically to the verse in question and then mentions the women reaction to it.

So for those of you out there who think that it is culture for women to cover themselves, you must then say in the same breath that the Prophet himself, his wives, and the believing women of that time have all misunderstood the verses. Also, that in 2006 we have now really found out what they mean, and that the muslimahs who have been covering themselves since the inception of Islam have all been in error. All of us have been misleadingly taught Arab culture for centuries and Allah has allowed such huge error to be proliferated throughout the ummah.

The concensus of ulama have held that the verses indeed mean the covering of a women entire body which would include her head. What has the prophet said about the ummah as a whole reaching such a consensus? Let's look at the relevant hadith:

Narrated Abdul Malik al-Ash'ari:

The prophet (saw) said: Allah has protected you from three things: that your Prophet should not invoke a curse on you, that those who follow what is false should not prevail over those who follow the truth, and that you should not all agree in error. (Dawud book 35 hadith 4240)

So here we see that Allah has protected us from the vast majority of the ummah agreeing upon errors. In other words, the great mufasireen and muhadditheen of Islam would never be allowed by Allah to agree that something is a part of deen which is absolutely untrue. We also see that the vast majority of ulama and muslims all around agree that these verses mean covering everything on a woman, and since her head is on her body it means that too.

Nobody on this forum or otherwise can convince me that this is not what the ayats of Quran mean on this subject. Breaking down arabic words do not impress me at all. It actually implies that those of us who do not understand arabiyyah cannot by default understand any of the Quran. While I acknowledge that having said knowledge is quite beneficial towards understanding Quran more deeply, I refute being essentially told that my basic reading comprehension is not enough to understand Quran on the surface. I also refute that Allah would allow centuries to pass with the muslim ummah being largely ignorant of basic principles in Islam without anyone ever noticing that.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

On stoning:

Narrated Abu Hurairah:

A man from among the people came to Allah's Prophet while he was sitting in the masjid and addressed him saying "O Prophet I have committed illegal sexual intercourse" The prophet turned his face from him. the man came to that side to which the prophet had turned his face and said "O prophet I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The prophet turned his face to the other side and the man came to that side, and when he confessed four times the prophet asked are you mad? He said no. The prophet said are you married? He said yes. The Prophet said "take him away and stone him to death.".......(bukhari book 8 hadith 814)

Abdullah ibn Abbas reported that Umar ibn al Khattab sat on the pulpit of the prophet and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited the verse, understood it, and retained it in our memory. Allah's messenger awarded the punishment of stoning to death and after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning. I am afraid with the lapse of time the people will disregard it and say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah and thus go astray by abandoning this duty. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or there is pregnancy, or a confession. (muslim book 17 hadith 4194)

On the cutting of a thieves hands:

Aisha reported that the Quraish were concerned about the woman who had committed theft during the lifetime of the prophet. They said: who will speak to Allah's messenger about her? They said: who can dare to do so but Usama ibn Zaid the loved one of the prophet. She was brought to the messenger and usam spoke on her behalf. The color of the face of the prophet changed and he said: Do you intercede in one of the prescribed punishments of Allah? Usama said: messenger of Allah seek forgiveness for me. When it was dusk the prophet stood up and gave and address. He first glorified Allah and then said: Now to our topic. This injustice destroyed those before you that when anyone of high rank committed theft they spared him, and when the weak among them committed theft they inflicated the punishment on them. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, even if Fatima were to commit theft I would have cut off her hand. The prophet then commanded about that woman and her hand was cut off. Aisha further said: Hers was a good repentance. She later on married and used to come to me after that and I conveyed her needs to Allah's messenger. (muslim book 17 hadith 4188)


These ahadith are quite clear to any of us. There is a such thing as capitol punishment in Islam. Again to deny them is to deny the authenticity of the hadiths themselves, or to say that again the Prophet along with the companions misunderstood yet another important verse of Quran. Maybe he made it up as apart of culture? May Allah save us from ourselves and from the whispering of shaytan ameen.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

I am deadly calm, my dear. Of course, I tend to get a little ticked off when people are rude to and judge me. I also get a little touchy when people imply I do not believe in G-d.

And excuse me? Threatening me with hell and planning a post on the horrors of Hell isn't a scare tactic? If the only reason I am "good" is because I am afraid to go to Hell my faith is pretty insincere.

There is disagreement if the "sin of Lut" was indeed, homosexuality, or something different like inhopsitality. And again, this all depends on how literally you take these stories.

They have stopped researching it as a disease because it ISN'T. If it was a disease or sickness then would I be able to call my professors and go "Hi, yep, I'm still queer so I won't be coming to class today, you know, being sick and all. I better get credit when I am not there!"
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][/FONT]
We don't have the "right to be cured." We have the right to live how lives how we see fit. And there is NOTHING wrong with me.

I'm gay and I believe in G-d and I know he loves me. And that's the end of that.

Uhh, i'm not the one that threatened you with hell, for i do not have that power. Allah does, (plus never in my previous posts have i said to a person "you're going to hell". And the statement made by my brother Mujahid, that you do not know/ fear hell, was incinuating that you do not seem to be afraid of hell. You said "if im going to hell for being who i am, then so be it"). Correct as of research done, the people of Lut may not have been homosexual, if and only if we call homosexuality a disorder (i've been saying disease, and that term is incorrect). Ok. Please explain what you mean by literally in your last sentence (in that paragraph).

Umm, no you would'nt be able to do that to your professors. But neither would any other person that has a disorder that does not effect his well being.

From the American Psychological Association's Statement on Homosexuality.
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.
Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice. Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture. Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores. Research findings suggest that efforts to repair homosexuals are nothing more than social prejudice garbed in psychological accouterments.

The article contradicts itself. By saying that homosexuality is ANOTHER way society chooses to express human love and sexuality, its indirectly calling homosexuality a choice. Then it says, that it is'nt a matter of individual choice, in other words its natural. So the response to each statement would be, if you agree to the first statement, that homosexuality is another form of human love and sexuality, then it has been forbiden by Allah (SWT), for "unkown" reasons. And if you agree to the second statement, that it is not a matter of individual choice, then we have a right to call it a disorder.

As for that last statement, well, its incorrect whether you're gay or not. To say "i know Allah loves me", is just like saying "i know Allah will not send me to hell, or will send me to heaven". A person's fate is in Allah's hands. God's love for certain people is part of the knowledge of the unseen. Even the Prophet (SAWS), who's sins have been forgiven, when asked by his wife to be gentle with himself (because the Prophet (SAWS) would pray until his feet became swollen), he said (SAWS) should i not be a thankful slave?

Peace[/FONT]

 

[TashaN]

There is disagreement if the "sin of Lut" was indeed, homosexuality, or something different like inhopsitality. And again, this all depends on how literally you take these stories.

[54] (We also sent) Lut (as a Messenger): behold, he said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)?

[55] "Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!"

When men have lust toward other men but not women so that's inhopsitality?

I think the verses are clear as the sun.

From the American Psychological Association's Statement on Homosexuality.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.
Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice. Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture. Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores. Research findings suggest that efforts to repair homosexuals are nothing more than social prejudice garbed in psychological accouterments.[/FONT]

“This is the Way God Made Me”​

A Scientific Examination of Homosexuality
and the “Gay Gene”​

Consider the obvious problem of survival for individuals who allegedly possess a gay gene: individuals who have partners of the same sex are biologically unable to reproduce (without resorting to artificial means). Therefore, if an alleged “gay gene” did exist, the homosexual population eventually would disappear altogether. We now know that it is not scientifically accurate to refer to a “gay gene” as the causative agent in homosexuality. The available evidence clearly establishes that no such gene has been identified. Additionally, evidence exists which documents that homosexuals can change their sexual orientation. Future decisions regarding policies about, and/or treatment of, homosexuals should reflect this knowledge.

Source: http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp

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Reinisch, June M. and Ruth Beasley (1990) The Kinsey Institute New Report on Sex (New York: St. Martin’s Press).

Rice, George, Carol Anderson, Neil Risch, and George Ebers (1999), “Male Homosexuality: Absence of Linkage to Microsatellite Markers at Xq28,” Science, 284:665-667, April 23.

Risch, Neil, Elizabeth Squires-Wheeler, and Bronya J.B. Keats (1993), “Male Sexual Orientation and Genetic Evidence,” Science, 262:2063-2064, December 24.

Shepherd, Gordon M. (1994) Neurobiology (Oxford: Oxford University Press), third edition.

Spitzer, Robert L. (2003), “Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation?,” Archives of Sexual Behavior, 32[5]:403-417, October 5.

VandeHei, Jim (2004), “Dean Says Faith Swayed Decision on Gay Unions,” The Washington Post, p. A-1, January 8.
Wickelgren, Ingrid (1999), “Discovery of ‘Gay Gene’ Questioned,” Science, 284:571, April 23.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Aye up..........I've never said they are all open to ijtihad.

I have said, previously, "The beauty of Islam is the ease of understanding, the Noble Quran is clear. Some verses are not open to interpretation, some verses only apply to a particular time and place, most verses apply to all times and places (ie. modesty) and of these verses some are open to interpretation"

I understand. Yet interpretation is not open to all who read the Qur'an. You must have knowledge of Hadeeth, Usool Al Tafseer, Usool al figh, Ageeda, etc. This is why we go back to the tafseer. The tafseer of the dominent scholars of Islam (ex. Tafseer al Tabary, Tafseer ibn Kathir, Tafseer Al sa'dy. etc.) Anyone can interpret the Qur'an, yet intepreting the Qur'an CORRECTLY is what only few can do.

As for your interpretations on hijab, stoning, punishments, etc. See Fullyveiled Muslima's posts.

 

[TashaN]

I used to wear traditional 'Arabic' Hijab whilst at University during the age of 19-20; I really have seen both sides. When I went home at the end of term I was really excited, I thought my father would be really proud of me. Anyway, no one reacted (mum or dad). Throughout dinner we just talked about the modules I was studying, laboratory assignments etc....I must admit, I was really surprised; so later on that same evening I asked my father what he thought about the new me.
He said "Laila, you need to live, 'live Islam' I'm proud of you.

I joined the 'Islamic society' at University, and started hanging around with the same group of people I'd met at the society. The first few months passed away quickly and nicely. Then I started noticing - some Muslim brothers being very disrepectful towards Muslim sisters who did not wear the head scarf. Muslim brothers being disrespect to me, even though I was wearing the full hijab, just because I'm a women. The final straw the following year (same academic year) was when one of the brothers from the society kept hassling me about getting married or at least getting to know each other. I didn't go to University to date, I wanted to study.
All I noticed from the society was a big book of don't do's. I was told I was a bad Muslim for not thinking about marriage, then this boy started getting quite nasty. I couldn't stand it any longer and decided to revert back to wear what I used to (which was always modest dress- thanks to my mum). I stopped going to the society when I was called a 'slag' (not by everyone- but it only takes one) for not wearing a head scarf.

The next visit home, I was clearly upset. My father spoke to me at length and I asked him why he didn't tell me, that what I wore was just cultural if he already knew!

He said "My girl, you were on the road to discovery. Learn the Quran and understand the message of Allah to be able 'to live Islam. You were not in error, I would have corrected you if you had brought a boy home"

The following day he took me to my first Sufi circle.
I submit to Allah from the deepest depths of my heart. I am nothing without Islam.
Every one of us will be accountable for our deeds so it is imperative to study the Quran.

I feel sorry for what those ignorant Muslim brothers have done to you, and you have to know that not all Muslims should be good because we all are human beings.

Do you know that some people forsake the religion because of the society they live at?

Sometimes Muslims themselves drive other Muslims to disbelief or leaving some obligations but on the other hand, that's not an excuse because everyone is responsible for his/her own deed in the day of judgment, and no one will be able to save you on that day. Allah gave you the choice whether to believe or disbelieve.

Regarding your father and not telling you that it was a culture, with all due respect, this is a big mistake. Following your father's advices won't save you and if that was an excuse it would be the same for those who rejected Islam using the excuse of following their fathers.

[104] When it is said to them: "Come to what Allah hath revealed; come to the Messenger": they say: "Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following." What! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?

[105] O ye who believe! guard your own souls: if ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt can come to you from those who stray. The goal of you all is to Allah: it is He that will show you the truth of all that ye do. (Surah 5)

To settle this issue, i want you to bring one single proof that women's hijab was a culture for Arabs, because maybe you will be able to show me somthing other than what Allah said in the Quran.

[33] And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance: and establish Regular Prayer, and give Regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. (Surah 33)

The Quran says excatly the opposite of what you said. Is the Quran wrong for instance? "God forbid".

Times of Igonrance is the "Jahilyah" which is the period before Islam. It was never part of Arabian culture that's why Allah ordered the Muslim women not to be like the women of Arabia but to be Muslims and WEAR LIKE MUSLIMS as Allah described.

 

[TashaN]

Salam Brother TT,

Let me clear two things:
1. I have always maintained that the Quran is for all times and all societies.
2. I never said "homosexuality should be spread"; I said "homosexuals should not be killed, or abused in any way" I have made my thoughts about homosexuality very clear and I do not wish to discuss this topic anymore.

Let us look at Surah 5 verses 38-39: I understood this as cutting the hand of the thief but that was 12 years ago. Then I thought, well if a thief has his/her hands severed how can they then contribute to society? or feed their family? and even when they repent their hand is lost for life! It didn't make sense.

That's was really hillarious.

I don't want to be rude but i couldn't stop from laughing when i saw your interpretations and breaking verses into separate arabic words then translating them into somthing which i didn't see in my whole life, whether from Muslims or non-Muslims. Even if this way is acceptable (self interpretation) which clearly isn't, anyone who speaks in arabic will not understand what you are trying to do in here because it doesn't make any sense. Your thoughts can't be better than what prophet Mohammed commanded us, don't you agree with me?

You remind me of a member who came in here, before you join the forum, and he was trying to be smart because he had a grasp of arabic language so he was trying so hard to prove the divinity of Jesus Christ through translating some words in the Quran in his own way and i proved for him that his way of interpretation was silly and absurd on it's head with so much evidences even from his own words. I'll be glad to show you that thread which i discussed with him at if you need it to know how people can get astray by twisting the verses whether that was by their full intention like that christian who knows some arabic or maybe he was arabian or like you which might be out of ignorance of the correct way in interpreting the Quran and the Sunnah.

Take this analogy for instance, bring some Muslims in one single room and give them pens and papers and give them one verse from the Quran and ask them to interpret it in the way they see it right (ignoring the interpretation of the Tafseer), then after that look at the result. I'm so sure that you will find so many different interpretations and each one of them will see the verse through his own little knowledge which can't be compared to the expert scholars of Islam who dedicated their whole life for the religion and it's knowledge who just follow what Prophet Mohammed said and what his companions who got the knowledge directly from Prophet Mohammed said.

If you think that your way of interpretation based on plain personal view is correct then our Ummah definitely will go astray from the right path and i'm sure of this 100%.

If you are still not satisfied with my answer so please read what our sister fullyveiled muslimah have posted.

One last thing, i would like to ask you somthing which i asked Djamila before you but she couldn't answer me.

Where you get your knowledge from?

- From some websites like (free-mind) which you posted before?
- Or from your own self?
- From a scholar of Islam?
- Others?

What ever your answer is i want you to answer me for this question too if you don't mind.

How many times a Muslim should pray in a day?

- Please provide for me the verse which say so as well.

Thanks.

Remember my sister ...

[21] O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things). (Surah 24)


Peace and blessing,

TT

 

[TashaN]

So for those of you out there who think that it is culture for women to cover themselves, you must then say in the same breath that the Prophet himself, his wives, and the believing women of that time have all misunderstood the verses. Also, that in 2006 we have now really found out what they mean, and that the muslimahs who have been covering themselves since the inception of Islam have all been in error. All of us have been misleadingly taught Arab culture for centuries and Allah has allowed such huge error to be proliferated throughout the ummah.

The concensus of ulama have held that the verses indeed mean the covering of a women entire body which would include her head. What has the prophet said about the ummah as a whole reaching such a consensus? Let's look at the relevant hadith:

Narrated Abdul Malik al-Ash'ari:

The prophet (saw) said: Allah has protected you from three things: that your Prophet should not invoke a curse on you, that those who follow what is false should not prevail over those who follow the truth, and that you should not all agree in error. (Dawud book 35 hadith 4240)

So here we see that Allah has protected us from the vast majority of the ummah agreeing upon errors. In other words, the great mufasireen and muhadditheen of Islam would never be allowed by Allah to agree that something is a part of deen which is absolutely untrue. We also see that the vast majority of ulama and muslims all around agree that these verses mean covering everything on a woman, and since her head is on her body it means that too.

Nobody on this forum or otherwise can convince me that this is not what the ayats of Quran mean on this subject. Breaking down arabic words do not impress me at all. It actually implies that those of us who do not understand arabiyyah cannot by default understand any of the Quran. While I acknowledge that having said knowledge is quite beneficial towards understanding Quran more deeply, I refute being essentially told that my basic reading comprehension is not enough to understand Quran on the surface. I also refute that Allah would allow centuries to pass with the muslim ummah being largely ignorant of basic principles in Islam without anyone ever noticing that.

Frubals

What an amazing post my sister, you are so right in everything you said and you are so right that even knowing arabic won't save us from misinterpretation the Quran and i'm sure that there are people who know Islam more than arabs because the language doesn't matter in here but it will just help in more understanding sometimes.

Do you know that al-Bukhari who collected the hadiths is not arabian?

Also, Sebaweh, the one who invented the current grammer for arabic wasn't arabian.

That's what comes to my mind right now but being arabian is not somthing unique when it came to Islam and most of scholars and muslim scientists weren't arabs.

The Last Sermon of Prophet Muhammad

​

"Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds."​

This sermon was delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul Hijjah 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat' (in Mecca).​

After praising, and thanking God he said:​

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.​

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. God has judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib (Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived...​

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.​

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.​

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.​

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.​

Remember, one day you will appear before God and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.​

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.​

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people".​

Source: http://www.islamfortoday.com/lastsermon.htm​

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

By Allah, if we just read Prophet Mohammed's last sermon we will never differ, err nor disagree in anything.​

May peace be upon you all and may Allah guide those amongest us who forsaked the example of Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him which will lead them to misguidance and disbelief.​

That's why prophet Mohammed said:​

"I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray". ​

It's clear now that those of us who don't follow the example of Prophet Mohammed (The Sunnah), they will surely go astray.​

May Allah guide all of us to the right path.​

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I would just like to say that the freemind website is the most ridiculous site I have ever visited that was run suppossedly by "muslims". I mean at one point they talk about how they dont love the prophet, and how love is only for Allah. So these people don't love thier mothers, fathers,brothers,sisters,spouses? Whatever. I bet these people don't even make salaat. Thats in Quran but I'm willing to bet anything they interpret salaat to mean contemplating on the creation of Allah. When people are gonna learn that everything the prophet said was from Allah? All day every day he was guided in all matters. Why is it that he was good enough to deliver Quran but he isn't good enough to say anything beyond that?

 

[TashaN]

On stoning:

Narrated Abu Hurairah:

A man from among the people came to Allah's Prophet while he was sitting in the masjid and addressed him saying "O Prophet I have committed illegal sexual intercourse" The prophet turned his face from him. the man came to that side to which the prophet had turned his face and said "O prophet I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The prophet turned his face to the other side and the man came to that side, and when he confessed four times the prophet asked are you mad? He said no. The prophet said are you married? He said yes. The Prophet said "take him away and stone him to death.".......(bukhari book 8 hadith 814)

Abdullah ibn Abbas reported that Umar ibn al Khattab sat on the pulpit of the prophet and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited the verse, understood it, and retained it in our memory. Allah's messenger awarded the punishment of stoning to death and after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning. I am afraid with the lapse of time the people will disregard it and say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah and thus go astray by abandoning this duty. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or there is pregnancy, or a confession. (muslim book 17 hadith 4194)

On the cutting of a thieves hands:

Aisha reported that the Quraish were concerned about the woman who had committed theft during the lifetime of the prophet. They said: who will speak to Allah's messenger about her? They said: who can dare to do so but Usama ibn Zaid the loved one of the prophet. She was brought to the messenger and usam spoke on her behalf. The color of the face of the prophet changed and he said: Do you intercede in one of the prescribed punishments of Allah? Usama said: messenger of Allah seek forgiveness for me. When it was dusk the prophet stood up and gave and address. He first glorified Allah and then said: Now to our topic. This injustice destroyed those before you that when anyone of high rank committed theft they spared him, and when the weak among them committed theft they inflicated the punishment on them. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, even if Fatima were to commit theft I would have cut off her hand. The prophet then commanded about that woman and her hand was cut off. Aisha further said: Hers was a good repentance. She later on married and used to come to me after that and I conveyed her needs to Allah's messenger. (muslim book 17 hadith 4188)


These ahadith are quite clear to any of us. There is a such thing as capitol punishment in Islam. Again to deny them is to deny the authenticity of the hadiths themselves, or to say that again the Prophet along with the companions misunderstood yet another important verse of Quran. Maybe he made it up as apart of culture? May Allah save us from ourselves and from the whispering of shaytan ameen.

So sadly, i can't Frubal you twice at the same time. May Allah reward you for your great posts my sister.

 

[Laila]

Do you know that some people forsake the religion because of the society they live at?

On the contrary, I haven't forsaken my religion. My life experiences have made me a better Muslim with immense love for God.
And one more thing; I do not follow my father - he loves me, so guides me when I need guidance, but never tells me what to do - this again is clear in my previous post. I wish to improve myself by understanding the true message of Allah and following it.
I close by saying that my posts (including the Arabic) are clear for those who wish to understand. Finally, we are one; our differences will be revealed on the day.

 

[Laila]

To settle this issue, i want you to bring one single proof that women's hijab was a culture for Arabs, because maybe you will be able to show me somthing other than what Allah said in the Quran.

[33] And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance: and establish Regular Prayer, and give Regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. (Surah 33)

This verse is time-bound and this is evident in its reference to the wives of the Prophet.

Let us look again at Surah 33, verses 32-33.
[33.32] O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word.
[33.33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

the wives of the Prophet, are fully conscious of God, have been given a special position as the consorts of the messenger of God and "mothers of the believers"

These verses are not applicable to an average (nobody) woman, like me. I am nothing compared to what they were. This is very clear in verse 32. To say that this verse applies to all women, in all times and societies is an error.

The term jahiliyyah (in this instance in verse 33) denotes the period of a people's - or civilisation's - moral ignorance between the obliteration of one prophetic teaching and the emergence ofanother; and, more specifically, the period of Arabian paganism before the advent of Muhammad (bpuh).