Movement Toward Socialism and National Debt in the USA.

[PureX]

Exploit must be a term you utilize to mischaracterize a corporate reality. I remember stating fair wages and prices on products and benefits, which amounts to opportunity for employees, who decided that their employer's efforts and company would be better off without its founder. It seems to me the exploitation came by the hands of her employee base and she the victim via the framework imposed on her company.

There is no point in arguing with your fantasies, nor with someone that isn't even bothering to consider the counterpoint.

 

[Stevicus]

That must be it ... lack of education, failure to read, and non-critical thinking skills. My mother would have thought socialism was great. I think a lot of our younger generations do also. We were poor and struggling and the American dream seemed too far out of reach to attain it. She thought it'd be better for Americans to be on an equal financial playing field rather than the class divisions being the rule of the day and night here. Me? I still hold capitalistic values. I'm still poor and the American dream still escapes me, but ... the opportunity seems important enough to pursue, but only if it's not a carrot and stick type of playing field.

I once held capitalistic values myself. Or, more specifically, I was raised with the same ideals about the American Dream and how America was the leader of the free world and the greatest nation to ever exist in all of human history. The word "capitalism" didn't necessarily come up all that often, but instead, one would hear terms like "freedom," "democracy," "liberty for all," the "American way of life," etc. I was in kindergarten when the Moon landings took place, which was also a great source of American pride and glory. I would also hear about and see images on TV of places overseas, where people were living in destitution, starving, with a narrator asking viewers to send donations.

At such a young age, I didn't know all the reasons why or how, but I did become aware that I should be thankful that I was born in such a bountiful, wealthy, comfortable society - as opposed to most of the rest of the world which...wasn't quite so nice. I would hear about it at every meal, if ever I seemed finicky or unwilling to eat my peas.

Things kind of fell apart in our family when my parents got divorced when I was 6. Up until that point, we had been a typical middle-class American family - neither rich nor poor. My dad was a conservative patriot and a hard-working, law-abiding citizen. My mother was more liberal and tended to side with the hippies of the time, even though she was 10 years older than the average hippie back then.

As I started to become more aware about the world, I came to understand more about the Cold War and about this thing called "communism" that appeared to get everyone all upset and bothered. It was also emphasized that American capitalism was vastly different than in other countries or in previous times, mainly due to rise of a strong and robust labor movement supported by liberals, which prevented the dreadful conditions which contribute to public dissension and radicalism associated with communism.

It probably wasn't until I was in college, during the Reagan era, that I started to become more and more socialistic in my outlook. I also considered myself as having a social consciousness, what some people derisively refer to as "woke" nowadays. I believed in equal rights and social justice. I was a supporter of Jesse Jackson's campaign when he was running for President. People criticized him for being "too radical," but my thought at the time was: What's wrong with being radical? I was also a fan of Governor Jerry Brown and Ralph Nader, who were not really socialists, but they were still friendly to the working classes and the ordinary people. The fact that they got sidelined and ridiculed by people from their own political party started me towards losing faith in that party. They were no longer the party of the working man, and I was convinced that socialism was the way to go at that point.

I also came to realize that the abstract, ideological arguments over comparative "economic systems" were essentially meaningless. There are no "economic systems," only political systems.

 

[PureX]

I once held capitalistic values myself. Or, more specifically, I was raised with the same ideals about the American Dream and how America was the leader of the free world and the greatest nation to ever exist in all of human history. The word "capitalism" didn't necessarily come up all that often, but instead, one would hear terms like "freedom," "democracy," "liberty for all," the "American way of life," etc. I was in kindergarten when the Moon landings took place, which was also a great source of American pride and glory. I would also hear about and see images on TV of places overseas, where people were living in destitution, starving, with a narrator asking viewers to send donations.

At such a young age, I didn't know all the reasons why or how, but I did become aware that I should be thankful that I was born in such a bountiful, wealthy, comfortable society - as opposed to most of the rest of the world which...wasn't quite so nice. I would hear about it at every meal, if ever I seemed finicky or unwilling to eat my peas.

Things kind of fell apart in our family when my parents got divorced when I was 6. Up until that point, we had been a typical middle-class American family - neither rich nor poor. My dad was a conservative patriot and a hard-working, law-abiding citizen. My mother was more liberal and tended to side with the hippies of the time, even though she was 10 years older than the average hippie back then.

As I started to become more aware about the world, I came to understand more about the Cold War and about this thing called "communism" that appeared to get everyone all upset and bothered. It was also emphasized that American capitalism was vastly different than in other countries or in previous times, mainly due to rise of a strong and robust labor movement supported by liberals, which prevented the dreadful conditions which contribute to public dissension and radicalism associated with communism.

It probably wasn't until I was in college, during the Reagan era, that I started to become more and more socialistic in my outlook. I also considered myself as having a social consciousness, what some people derisively refer to as "woke" nowadays. I believed in equal rights and social justice. I was a supporter of Jesse Jackson's campaign when he was running for President. People criticized him for being "too radical," but my thought at the time was: What's wrong with being radical? I was also a fan of Governor Jerry Brown and Ralph Nader, who were not really socialists, but they were still friendly to the working classes and the ordinary people. The fact that they got sidelined and ridiculed by people from their own political party started me towards losing faith in that party. They were no longer the party of the working man, and I was convinced that socialism was the way to go at that point.

I also came to realize that the abstract, ideological arguments over comparative "economic systems" were essentially meaningless. There are no "economic systems," only political systems.

And those either function or they don't based on the ethical imperatives they represent.

 

[metis]

The cradle and what have you sounds sweet, but this nation is in no condition to be adopting any sort of socialist type policies.

With a graduated income tax with minimal deductions, especially with the wealthy, it can be done as we've seen in the Scandinavian countries.

Rent? I can't afford it. I'm currently a non-earning self-employed drifter with a gen z son, who I imagine has been sweating bullets due to his lack of opportunity. It's difficult, but thankfully there are some who understand the needs and who help accommodate many of them for all of us.

Sorry to read this, and I hope your financial situation improves. But at the same time that it's people like you income-wise who have the most to benefit from the Nordic Model and also have the least to lose. When in Amsterdam, I ran across a woman who grew up in New York but married a Dutchman and they live in Amsterdam, and she said it was a really good move for her because of all the protection they have.

 

[metis]

People taking care of each other. My, what a horrific concept!

Ya, and it's a shame that so many Pubs who say they are Christian can't support such horribleness.

 

[Balthazzar]

There is no point in arguing with your fantasies, nor with someone that isn't even bothering to consider the counterpoint.

agreed

 

[Balthazzar]

I once held capitalistic values myself. Or, more specifically, I was raised with the same ideals about the American Dream and how America was the leader of the free world and the greatest nation to ever exist in all of human history. The word "capitalism" didn't necessarily come up all that often, but instead, one would hear terms like "freedom," "democracy," "liberty for all," the "American way of life," etc. I was in kindergarten when the Moon landings took place, which was also a great source of American pride and glory. I would also hear about and see images on TV of places overseas, where people were living in destitution, starving, with a narrator asking viewers to send donations.

At such a young age, I didn't know all the reasons why or how, but I did become aware that I should be thankful that I was born in such a bountiful, wealthy, comfortable society - as opposed to most of the rest of the world which...wasn't quite so nice. I would hear about it at every meal, if ever I seemed finicky or unwilling to eat my peas.

Things kind of fell apart in our family when my parents got divorced when I was 6. Up until that point, we had been a typical middle-class American family - neither rich nor poor. My dad was a conservative patriot and a hard-working, law-abiding citizen. My mother was more liberal and tended to side with the hippies of the time, even though she was 10 years older than the average hippie back then.

As I started to become more aware about the world, I came to understand more about the Cold War and about this thing called "communism" that appeared to get everyone all upset and bothered. It was also emphasized that American capitalism was vastly different than in other countries or in previous times, mainly due to rise of a strong and robust labor movement supported by liberals, which prevented the dreadful conditions which contribute to public dissension and radicalism associated with communism.

It probably wasn't until I was in college, during the Reagan era, that I started to become more and more socialistic in my outlook. I also considered myself as having a social consciousness, what some people derisively refer to as "woke" nowadays. I believed in equal rights and social justice. I was a supporter of Jesse Jackson's campaign when he was running for President. People criticized him for being "too radical," but my thought at the time was: What's wrong with being radical? I was also a fan of Governor Jerry Brown and Ralph Nader, who were not really socialists, but they were still friendly to the working classes and the ordinary people. The fact that they got sidelined and ridiculed by people from their own political party started me towards losing faith in that party. They were no longer the party of the working man, and I was convinced that socialism was the way to go at that point.

I also came to realize that the abstract, ideological arguments over comparative "economic systems" were essentially meaningless. There are no "economic systems," only political systems.

It's always college students who turn towards socialism and humanism and atheism and liberalism, etc. Why is that? I was a more liberal minded democrat for the first 19 years or so, then something dawned on me at age 45 or 46. Our nation is no condition for big government, over reaching social programs, or denied opportunity to start, own, and control your own company or business. I realized the need for private sector involvement and civic duty as citizens, which would normally be an accepted stance by the more socialist minded, but for some reason isn't.

I remember Al Gore, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Ralph Nader, Barak Obama, Hilary Clinton, etc ... All of whom I supported to some extent. I'm a registered republican now. There's a reason after 53 years on earth that this is true.

 

[Stevicus]

It's always college students who turn towards socialism and humanism and atheism and liberalism, etc. Why is that?

Because they become educated? It's also about the same time that one learns that real life does not match the propaganda one hears while growing up. While kids often learn relatively early that there is no Santa Claus, it's sometimes not until late teens or early adulthood where certain harsh truths about religion and America come to light.

I was a more liberal minded democrat for the first 19 years or so, then something dawned on me at age 45 or 46. Our nation is no condition for big government, over reaching social programs, or denied opportunity to start, own, and control your own company or business. I realized the need for private sector involvement and civic duty as citizens, which would normally be an accepted stance by the more socialist minded, but for some reason isn't.

America didn't always have big government or social programs. I don't know what you mean about "denied opportunity to start your own business." People start businesses all the time in America. The private sector has been the driving force in America ever since its inception.

Government became bigger as capitalist greed set its sights on more international horizons. The laissez-faire economy was sufficient during the 19th century, when America's territorial and economic expansion was mainly confined to the continent. However, once that was completed, then our government started looking across the seas. For this, a greater sense of national unity and patriotism was needed, along with the expectation of unquestioned loyalty to the United States. The military had to be increased in size, and we had to enhance our capabilities in projecting our power overseas. Other countries were doing the same thing, so as a result, the US had a need to create agencies designed for both internal and external security, such as the FBI, CIA, NSA - just to name a few.

I remember Al Gore, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Ralph Nader, Barak Obama, Hilary Clinton, etc ... All of whom I supported to some extent. I'm a registered republican now. There's a reason after 53 years on earth that this is true.

None of these people you name here are socialists. They're all capitalists, and hold the same capitalist values you mentioned upthread.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There are numerous forms of socialism, including the Nordic Model that I'm fond of. Maybe that explains at least in part why Norwegians and Swedes live an average of 8 years longer than Americans.

Nordic model - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Meanwhile back in 2018....

Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist

As much as liberals like to use Nordic countries as examples that socialism and successful societies can co-exist, the reality is that these countries are not socialist, or even farther along the spectrum toward socialism than most other developed countries.

www.forbes.com

 

[Stevicus]

Meanwhile back in 2018....

Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist

As much as liberals like to use Nordic countries as examples that socialism and successful societies can co-exist, the reality is that these countries are not socialist, or even farther along the spectrum toward socialism than most other developed countries.

www.forbes.com

Actually, it's always been conservatives and capitalists who have derided Scandinavia as socialist. Every capitalist argues like it's shown here:

 

[Balthazzar]

Because they become educated? It's also about the same time that one learns that real life does not match the propaganda one hears while growing up. While kids often learn relatively early that there is no Santa Claus, it's sometimes not until late teens or early adulthood where certain harsh truths about religion and America come to light.




America didn't always have big government or social programs. I don't know what you mean about "denied opportunity to start your own business." People start businesses all the time in America. The private sector has been the driving force in America ever since its inception.

Government became bigger as capitalist greed set its sights on more international horizons. The laissez-faire economy was sufficient during the 19th century, when America's territorial and economic expansion was mainly confined to the continent. However, once that was completed, then our government started looking across the seas. For this, a greater sense of national unity and patriotism was needed, along with the expectation of unquestioned loyalty to the United States. The military had to be increased in size, and we had to enhance our capabilities in projecting our power overseas. Other countries were doing the same thing, so as a result, the US had a need to create agencies designed for both internal and external security, such as the FBI, CIA, NSA - just to name a few.




None of these people you name here are socialists. They're all capitalists, and hold the same capitalist values you mentioned upthread.

Idealism, community, human rights, equality, and fair treatment are typically at the forefront of the liberal and socialist movements. Naivety is no less dominate than the former. Those mentioned stood further to the left than I do today. I can't help but bring up this nation's ability to satisfy a socialist movement. 34 trillion dollar debt and thriving capitalistic efforts made by everyday citizens like me very likely effect the ability to be. You have no idea what I mean about having the opportunity, yet you vilify capitalism and favor a more board oriented democratic application to how personal business efforts are managed. I'm still an idealist and as a labeled conservative, I still lean further to the left than even some democrats. Did I mention how much I appreciate private sector efforts?

 

[Nakosis]

Socialism goes like this: You get this and that, but the American dream and capitalistic pursuits are mostly non-existent. The stipulations attached to the humanitarian type efforts of the socialists involved require that you stay where they put you and acknowledge and be thankful for what you have ... they'll take care of the rest, including your progeny and their futures also.

Socialism seems to be a system where the benefits of capitalism are distributed over the largest number of folks possible until the social programs risk the collapse of the economy.

As long as you can support the capitalist system sufficiently to carry the burden of the social programs you'll be ok.

 

[Stevicus]

Idealism, community, human rights, equality, and fair treatment are typically at the forefront of the liberal and socialist movements. Naivety is no less dominate than the former. Those mentioned stood further to the left than I do today. I can't help but bring up this nation's ability to satisfy a socialist movement. 34 trillion dollar debt and thriving capitalistic efforts made by everyday citizens like me very likely effect the ability to be. You have no idea what I mean about having the opportunity, yet you vilify capitalism and favor a more board oriented democratic application to how personal business efforts are managed. I'm still an idealist and as a labeled conservative, I still lean further to the left than even some democrats. Did I mention how much I appreciate private sector efforts?

We do have a large debt, this is true. But you can't blame that on socialism, since socialists have never held power in the United States. It's the capitalists and their political allies who have been driving the train - and that includes all the results and consequences - both positive and negative.

I don't really see anything inherently wrong in "idealism, community, human rights, equality, and fair treatment." These are qualities indicative of human advancement and maturity, but if humanity can't handle that and ends up regressing to more primitive ways of thinking, that would be to humanity's discredit. That could lead to even more severe consequences. I don't know about you, but I would rather there not be another world war.

 

[Balthazzar]

Socialism seems to be a system where the benefits of capitalism are distributed over the largest number of folks possible until the social programs risk the collapse of the economy.

As long as you can support the capitalist system sufficiently to carry the burden of the social programs you'll be ok.

I recall the American dream being on the forefront of our happiness and efforts as individuals. The shift came with benefits of other people's efforts being distributed to larger numbers of people, making new business start-ups, and becoming an entrepreneur less attractive to many of us. The distribution of wealth via social programs, government funding, and through private channels has become more prevalent in recent years and I'll assume due to the growing needs of a nation in crisis. Our lending partners, associates, business investors, etc. all feeling the burden of need, which brings me back to the American dream and the pursuit of happiness. What happened to these? The contrast seems evident enough. Capitalism or socialism? The American dream or broader distribution of wealth by our earners?

 

[Revoltingest]

Announcement....
I think socialism is bad.

 

[Nakosis]

I recall the American dream being on the forefront of our happiness and efforts as individuals. The shift came with benefits of other people's efforts being distributed to larger numbers of people, making new business start-ups, and becoming an entrepreneur less attractive to many of us. The distribution of wealth via social programs, government funding, and through private channels has become more prevalent in recent years and I'll assume due to the growing needs of a nation in crisis. Our lending partners, associates, business investors, etc. all feeling the burden of need, which brings me back to the American dream and the pursuit of happiness. What happened to these? The contrast seems evident enough. Capitalism or socialism? The American dream or broader distribution of wealth by our earners?

Seems obvious that you need to support the "American dream" in order to fund the "broader distribution of wealth".

You need rich folks to tax. The more rich folks, the better for all.

 

[Balthazzar]

Seems obvious that you need to support the "American dream" in order to fund the "broader distribution of wealth".

You need rich folks to tax. The more rich folks, the better for all.

I prefer to view as "I need the American dream to support myself and to be a greater benefit to my communities." The American dream, believe it or not, has a way of employing others, helping to place them in positions where they too can support themselves, relying less on other people's funding efforts.

 

[Nakosis]

Announcement....
I think socialism is bad.

The old socialism id dead. No body liked the old socialism, except maybe a few remaining with the delusion that socialism will be able to provide them a free ride.

The new socialism is simply repackaged capitalism. Make folks feel better about the fact that actual socialism suxeth.

 

[Revoltingest]

The old socialism id dead. No body liked the old socialism, except maybe a few remaining with the delusion that socialism will be able to provide them a free ride.

The new socialism is simply repackaged capitalism. Make folks feel better about the fact that actual socialism suxeth.

You might even call me a "New Socialist".
(That'll urinate off the socialists, eh.)

 

[Nakosis]

I prefer to view as "I need the American dream to support myself and to be a greater benefit to my communities." The American dream, believe it or not, has a way of employing others, helping to place them in positions where they too can support themselves, relying less on other people's funding efforts.

Yes, capitalism.