Most convincing fufilled Biblical prophesy?

[Storm]

Once I have a chance tonight, I'll try to scan some sketches. I think for this, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Fair enough.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay... here are my sketches. And now you get to find out how horribly messy my handwriting is.

Let's look at what your source said:

The religious meaning of the number seven is derived in part from the numerological combination of the three zones of the cosmos (heaven, earth, underworld) seen vertically,

So... something like this:

and the four directions, or zones, of the cosmos seen horizontally.

Which to me implies something like this: lines pointed in different directions on a plane... like to the four compass directions or to the "four corners" of the Earth:

Are we good so far?

So now the question is how to put these together. Here are some examples:

Personally, I'd put my money on (c) for the reasons I touched on before: typically, symmetry is associated with perfection, which is associated with "godliness", and (c), with the cross-member dealie located at the midpoint of the vertical member, has the most degrees of symmetry of any of the possibilities.

However, the important thing to note is that none of the options so far look anything like a Christian cross. For one thing, they have that extra arm that would've gone through Jesus' head if his cross had had one.

But for argument's sake, let's take a different approach: even though the description you gave suggests a three-dimensional shape like the ones I drew above, for giggles, let's arbitrarily decide that the shape has to be two-dimensional. Remember what it said: four horizontal, three vertical. That gets us this:

Again, this is not the Christian cross. The Christian cross looks very different:

That's why I say you're excluding possibilities. There's nothing in this except your preconceptions that suggests the Christian cross shape in the description you gave. If you just take them at face value, they suggest something else.

 

[Storm]

OK, ok, I'm with you now. I can accept that that's a valid interpretation. Can you say the same?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OK, ok, I'm with you now. I can accept that that's a valid interpretation. Can you say the same?

No, I can't. It doesn't meet the criteria that your source laid out. The Christian cross does not fulfill the "prophecy".

It kinda matches if you stand back and squint a bit, but at that point, we're engaging in pareidolia, as I alluded to before.

 

[Storm]

No, I can't. It doesn't meet the criteria that your source laid out. The Christian cross does not fulfill the "prophecy".

Bwuh? If you'll check the link in that post, there's no mention of prophecy - the article is actually critiques Literalism in general, and YEC in particular. So, I have to ask, what criteria?

It kinda matches if you stand back and squint a bit, but at that point, we're engaging in pareidolia, as I alluded to before.

I disagree. just because you don't get the same picture in your head that I do does not mean one is right and the other is stupid.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Bwuh? If you'll check the link in that post, there's no mention of prophecy - the article is actually critiques Literalism in general, and YEC in particular. So, I have to ask, what criteria?

For one, it describes something that has four horizontal units to three vertical units. IOW, if it's a two-dimensional shape, then it's wider than it is tall.

This reminds me of the debates I've had with "science in the Quran" Muslims who don't get the difference between an oblate spheroid (a sphere that's been "squished" to have a height less than its width, e.g. the Earth) and a prolate spheroid (a sphere that's been "stretched" to have a height more than its width e.g. an egg). Tall and thin is not the same thing as short and wide.

I disagree. just because you don't get the same picture in your head that I do does not mean one is right and the other is stupid.

I never said it's stupid. I think it's incorrect, but I never said that it (or anyone putting the view forward) is stupid.

 

[Storm]

For one, it describes something that has four horizontal units to three vertical units. IOW, if it's a two-dimensional shape, then it's wider than it is tall.

And you forgot the part where I pointed out that the cross is not always oriented the same direction?

I never said it's stupid. I think it's incorrect, but I never said that it (or anyone putting the view forward) is stupid.

Take four wooden blocks and arrange them horizontally. Do you get a line or a square?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And you forgot the part where I pointed out that the cross is not always oriented the same direction?

I didn't forget; I dismissed the point as invalid.

This whole discussion started because you claimed a similarity between the numerology in Genesis and the Roman torture device that was used to execute Jesus, correct?

The Romans used all sorts of methods of execution, and even several kinds of cross, but I've never heard anyone suggest that they used wide, short crosses.

Take four wooden blocks and arrange them horizontally. Do you get a line or a square?

You could get either... or a few different shapes (anything that's a block in Tetris, basically). "Horizontal" is a plane.

 

[Storm]

I didn't forget; I dismissed the point as invalid.

Why? If you said, I forgot.

This whole discussion started because you claimed a similarity between the numerology in Genesis and the Roman torture device that was used to execute Jesus, correct?

The Romans used all sorts of methods of execution, and even several kinds of cross, but I've never heard anyone suggest that they used wide, short crosses.

Actually, it was more a reference to the cross as the symbol of the faith, though that seems to've been muddled by the fact said symbol was based on the torture/ execution device.

You could get either... or a few different shapes (anything that's a block in Tetris, basically). "Horizontal" is a plane.

If you can get either, why is my supposition of a line incorrect, as opposed to "not your first thought?"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why? If you said, I forgot.

I didn't give an argument against it in the thread until now. Before, I just figured it was hand-waving and not a serious point.

Actually, it was more a reference to the cross as the symbol of the faith, though that seems to've been muddled by the fact said symbol was based on the torture/ execution device.

It's a symbol of the faith because it was a torture device. It's a symbol of Christ's death and resurrection. The fact that some people stylized it since then doesn't change this relationship to the Roman execution device, which is at the root of it and what every single Christian cross is alluding to.

If you can get either, why is my supposition of a line incorrect, as opposed to "not your first thought?"

Here are the issues:

- to get from that description to a line, we have to ignore the bit where they say that the four horizontal things represent "the four directions". One line is not four directions.

- if we overlook that, then sure: maybe it's a line, maybe it's a square, maybe it's one of those L-shaped Tetris blocks. There's no particular reason to exclude any of them... but this is still a problem for you, since to make the conclusion work that you seem to be driving at, then it needs to point to the cross specifically. Remember your initial claim: "the pattern of creation forms a cross", not "the pattern of creation forms many shapes, and allows for a cross as one possibility." The former is somewhat remarkable. The latter isn't.

- but again: the biggest reason that I think your interpretation is incorrect is that horizontal is not the same as vertical. I don't know how many times I have to say this.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Ok, this is ridiculous. Why are two people who don't even believe in Christianity arguing like this?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok, this is ridiculous. Why are two people who don't even believe in Christianity arguing like this?

I can't speak to Storm, but I'm trying to make a point about prophecy and signs generally. IMO, they're like clouds: if you squint at them a bit, they can look like all sorts of things... but that doesn't mean that the thing you see is meaningful.

 

[Pegg]

People such as Matt Dillahunty(The Atheist Experience TV program) state that supposedly fulfilled Biblical prophecy is not specific enough to be considered convincing. So, what is the most convincing fufilled prophesy?

Another issue is if there is convincing fulfilled prophesy, what does that have to do with Biblical literalism? I ask this question because my Fundamentalist friend believes fulfilled prophesy is proof that the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

there are many fulfilled prophecys that are very specific.

the most obvious would be the prophet Isaiah who gave the name of the king who would free the Jews from their captivity in Babylon in the

Isaiah 44:24 This is what Jehovah has said... “I, Jehovah, am doing everything,... 26 the One making the word of his servant come true,...the One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’ and of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, and her desolated places I shall raise up’...28 the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’; even in [my] saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid.’”
Isaiah was a prophet in Israel during the time of at least four kings of Judah: Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah....ie, between 778 BCE untill after 732 BCE.


Ezra the prophet wrote of the outcome when the Persian King Cyrus arose on the world scene and set the jews free from their captivity...he gave the order for the rebuilding of Jerualem just as Isaiah had foretold 200 years earlier.


Ezra 1:1 And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia so that he caused a cry to pass through all his realm, and also in writing, saying:
2 “This is what Cyrus the king of Persia has said, ‘All the kingdoms of the earth Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me, and he himself has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. 3 Whoever there is among YOU of all his people, may his God prove to be with him. So let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and rebuild the house of Jehovah the God of Israel

Babylon fell to the Mede's and Persians Babylon on October 5, 539 BCE (Gregorian calendar) and this date is a pivotal date that can be harmonized with both secular and Biblical history. During his first year as ruler of Babylon, Cyrus “caused a cry to pass through all his realm,” authorizing the Jews to go up to Jerusalem to rebuild the house of Jehovah. A faithful remnant journeyed back to Jerusalem in time to set up the altar and offer the first sacrifices in “the seventh month” (Tishri, corresponding to September-October) of the year 537 BCE— exactly 70 years as prophesied by Jeremiah “I will bring [the Babylonians] against this land and against its inhabitants . . . And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”—Jeremiah 25:9, 11.

 

[GawdAweful]

Personally I don't find any of the Bible's prophecies convincing, They can best be understood by examining the context of when they were written. Their purpose was to give hope for the faithful during distressful times or to incite loyalty for a cause. Studying most prophecies reveals the time of their writing by observing when it starts to breakdown and begins requiring more symbolic or spiritual explanations.

 

[Storm]

Ok, this is ridiculous. Why are two people who don't even believe in Christianity arguing like this?

That was kinda my take. Honestly, I didn't expect anyone to get so worked up over an unbeliever saying, "well this is kinda cool."

 

[punkdbass]

When I originally viewed this thread, the many prophecies about King Cyrus came to my mind.. The only problem is we have no way of knowing if Isaiah was written after or before the events occurred..

But I would also like to point out that prophecy in general is not about predicting future events but rather was about giving the society at the time a message for positive social change -- which often subsequent generations could still relate to the message and find it to be useful(as we still do today). I am not saying that prophecy NEVER predicts future events, for it certainly does occasionally, but it is definitely not the main purpose of biblical prophecy, and I think this is a huge misconception that most of Western society has today about the Bible.

But to address the original question, Ill quote Abraham Joshua Heschel on a few different points he made about the Bible:

• Genius identifies itself, the Bible is not in need of proof. The Bible has exercised power over the spirit of man throughout the ages not because of its label but because of the power of its contents
• There is no book that can compare to it, nothing greater. No book will ever replace or surpass its power
• Isaiah 40:6-8, the word of God shall stand for ever: the Bible is the only thing on earth we can associate with eternity

And lastly, I would like to add that the fulfillment of the original promises God made to Abraham, that he would be the father of a great nation, his descendants would be as vast as the stars in the sky.. Billions of people -- Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc consider Abraham as a father figure in their religion. His vision of monotheism has endured for thousands of years. The Jewish people have survived for thousands of years while the greatest world empires and religions crumbled and became extinct. No other book compares to the power and influence the Bible has had on mankind for thousands of years.. Proof of anything supernatural? No, but I find this all to be very fascinating.

 

[outhouse]

Ok, this is ridiculous. Why are two people who don't even believe in Christianity arguing like this?

because 1 like's to argue just about any inane point

 

[Storm]

because 1 like to argue just about any inane point

What's the minimum number of participants for an argument?

 

[outhouse]

I can't speak to Storm, but I'm trying to make a point about prophecy and signs generally. IMO, they're like clouds: if you squint at them a bit, they can look like all sorts of things... but that doesn't mean that the thing you see is meaningful.

exactly

there is nothing in any part of the OT or NT that would be convincing as "fufilled" and be any more credible then a lucky guess.

 

[Music]

MOST CONVINCING FULFILLED BIBLICAL PROPHECYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!

I am still Waiting!

Temple destruction, 70 ad.