Most convincing fufilled Biblical prophesy?

[dyanaprajna2011]

Personally, there's no supposed prophecy in the Bible that I find particularly incredible, mainly because we don't know for sure when any of it was actually written. Music pointed out the destruction of the temple, as recorded in Matthew and Luke, but there's evidence to suggest they may not have been written until after the event.

 

[Me Myself]

Temple destruction, 70 ad.

How do we know this was prophetized? I mean, how do we know this was said/written before the temple destruction?

 

[outhouse]

How do we know this was prophetized? I mean, how do we know this was said/written before the temple destruction?

Id like to explore that as well.

I think the jews in jesus time always knew war was around the corner, tensions were already high over the corruption in the jewish governement due to the roman infection in the temple, they turned the treasury/temple into a buisiness

It was going to go down one way or another and to the people before hand it was obvious

 

[outhouse]

Personally, there's no supposed prophecy in the Bible that I find particularly incredible, mainly because we don't know for sure when any of it was actually written. Music pointed out the destruction of the temple, as recorded in Matthew and Luke, but there's evidence to suggest they may not have been written until after the event.

true, written after the fact means nothing.

 

[1robin]

People such as Matt Dillahunty(The Atheist Experience TV program) state that supposedly fulfilled Biblical prophecy is not specific enough to be considered convincing. So, what is the most convincing fufilled prophesy?

Another issue is if there is convincing fulfilled prophesy, what does that have to do with Biblical literalism? I ask this question because my Fundamentalist friend believes fulfilled prophesy is proof that the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

The prophecies concerning Tyre are not some of the strongest ones. However I have debated them recently twice and they contain a wealth of detail that renders their denial a result of bias alone and not on evidence. It contains many specific details.

1. Who would be destroyed. (the Phonecian city of Tyre)
2. Who would be involved in destroying them. (Nebuchadnezzar plus another unidentified force).
3. The fact that the Phonecian city of Tyre would never be built again.
4. That the first attacker, Nebuchadnezzar would wipe out the main city on the mainland and attack but not destroy the island.
5. That the later attacker (Alexander the great) would finish the job and render Tyre into rubble.
6. That the sea would cover much of the city. Alexander used the rubble as a causway to besiege the island.
7. That it would be exceeding deadly for the Tyrians. They hung Alexanders messengers from the wall and was more the usually brutal.
8. That the island would be used to spread fishing nets.
9. That Nebuchadnezzar would not gain enough loot to pay the army but would therefore go to egypt and destroy their current premanent status, and that they would never again politically dominate the area.

10. Other prophcy even cover what would eventually happen to Alexanders empire. That it would be dissolved into 4 rival kingdoms and what each kingdom would do and it's fate. This is another subject.

Some scholars have determined the chances that this prophecy would be fullfilled by accident. "If Ezekiel had looked at Tyre in his day and had made these... predictions in human wisdom, these estimates mean that there would have been only one chance in 75,000,000 of their all coming true. They all came true."
The Truth: Fulfilled Prophecy: Tyre
That plus this site are good places to start.
http://www.netbiblestudy.com/00_cartimages/fulfilledbibleprophecy.pdf
Those numbers are very speculative but give an idea of reality.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But Tyre still exists. #5 failed at the very least.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

And how do we know Ezekiel wasn't written after the events happened? It would look like prophecy to us today, but history to them then. I have the same problem with Daniel. Both books seem to have been written long after the Jews returned under Cyrus.

 

[1robin]

But Tyre still exists. #5 failed at the very least.

I wonder if you critics go to seminars or something. I always have to straighten out the same things over and over. God did not pronounce a judgement of the geographical location. The island didn't anger him. The people did. Phonecian Tyre was destroyed and in fact that led to the destruction of all of Phonecia. That was who angered him and that is who's city and power was destroyed. I was going to state that up fron but was too lazy and hoped that simple fact would be understood. Mistake!!! The next city built there was called Sidon I believe and was not Phonecians. The city today is not Phonecian either it is Lebanese.

"It is also written, 'thou shalt be built no more'. (26:14) Other cities destroyed by enemies had been rebuilt; Jerusalem was destroyed many times, but always has risen again from the ruins; what reason was there for saying that Old Tyre might not be rebuilt? But twenty-five centuries ago a Jew in exile over in Babylonia looked into the future at the command of God and wrote the words, 'thou shalt be built no more!' The voice of God has spoken and Old Tyre today stands as it has for twenty-five centuries a bare rock, uninhabited by man! Today anyone who wants to see the site of the old city, can have it pointed out to him along the shore, but there is not a ruin to mark the spot. It has been scraped clean and has never been rebuilt."[11]


Beck evaluates the final stipulation of the prophecy, which stated that the city was never to be found again, "Most commentators say that the actual site of the ancient city would be forgotten or lost because of destruction. A better interpretation of this verse is that the seeking by men would be for the purpose of elevating Tyre to her former position of wealth and splendor. It is difficult to believe that the actual location of the city could be lost when it formerly occupied completely the island with walls built to the water's edge."[12] Yet some still have difficulty in accepting the fulfillment of this part in the prophecy

The Truth: Fulfilled Prophecy: Tyre
Old Tyre is the Island and the cultural and economic heart of ancient Tyre. None of Tyre was rebuilt by the Phonecians which was who God was mad at but even the core of Tyre is still a pile of rubble. I guess reading the links I provided or the many that explain this issue was a stupid expectation.

 

[1robin]

And how do we know Ezekiel wasn't written after the events happened? It would look like prophecy to us today, but history to them then. I have the same problem with Daniel. Both books seem to have been written long after the Jews returned under Cyrus.

Did you look for the dates? This is the first site I saw. Predictive prophecy stands as one of the most viable proofs of the Bible’s divine inspiration.

Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning the city of Tyre provides an excellent example of such evidence.
Ezekiel’s prophetic message is one of the easiest to place in an accurate time frame. In verse 2 of the first chapter, the prophet noted that his visions and prophecies began “in the fifth year of King Johoiachin’s captivity.” The date for this captivity is virtually unanimously accepted as 597 [SIZE=-1]B.C.[/SIZE] during the second deportation of citizens from Judea to Babylon, which is documented in detail in 2 Kings 24:10-20. Furthermore, not only is the deportation recorded in the biblical account, but the ancient Chaldean records document it as well (Free and Vos, 1992, p. 194). Since Ezekiel’s visions began five years after the deportation, then a firm date of 592 [SIZE=-1]B.C.[/SIZE] can be established for the beginning of his prophecy. The prophet supplies other specific dates such as the seventh year (20:1), the ninth year (24:1), the eleventh year (26:1), and the latest date given as the twenty-seventh year (29:17) [Note: for an outline see Archer, 1974, pp. 368-369].
Due to the firmly established dating system that Ezekiel chose to use for his prophecy, the date of the prophecy regarding the city of Tyre, found in chapter 26, can be accurately established as the eleventh year after 597, which would be 586 [SIZE=-1]B.C.[/SIZE]
Apologetics Press - Tyre in Prophecy

Here is number two: Tyre


Ezekiel 26:3-5,7,12,14,16. Ezekiel was written around 593 to 571 B.C. This prophecy
predicted: 1) Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Tyre, a powerful and
glorious city. Fulfilled in 573 B.C. 2) Many nations would fight against
Tyre. I believe this was first fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar when he
couquered Tyre as a king of many nations. He no doubt pressed soldiers
from many nations to serve in his army. Later this part of the prophecy
was fulfilled again in 332 B.C. by Alexander the Great. During the
centuries that followed many nations cames against Tyre until it was
finally destroyed in 1291 A.D. 3) Tyre's stones, timber, and even dust would go
into the sea. The city would be made flat, like a rock's top. Apparently,
under Alexander the Great, the stones, timber, and even dust from daughter
Tyre, on the west coast of Lebanon, was dumped into the sea in order to
build a land bridge to Mother Tyre, which was actually a fortress like
island, a short distance away. 4) Other rulers would fear greatly when Tyre
was conquered. I believe this was fulfilled in 332 B.C.
Prophecy In The Bible.

Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:3
Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 573 BC, 332 BC, etc.
Bible prophecies fulfilled by Phoenicia's city of Tyre

If you wish to equivocate over these dates and the first battles keep in mind that the second more destructive and final predicted act occured in 332BC for which no equivocation can help. I only very rarely hear anyone challenge this prophecy on it date or writing. It is usuall conceded along with 90% of it's details. It is usually only who did what and for some reason always that a later different civilization built a new city there. If you research apocolyptic writing styles common in most cultures at that time it clears many things up. This site addresses it. Ezekiel's Tyre Prophecy Defended

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Did you look for the dates? This is the first site I saw. Predictive prophecy stands as one of the most viable proofs of the Bible’s divine inspiration.

Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning the city of Tyre provides an excellent example of such evidence.
Ezekiel’s prophetic message is one of the easiest to place in an accurate time frame. In verse 2 of the first chapter, the prophet noted that his visions and prophecies began “in the fifth year of King Johoiachin’s captivity.” The date for this captivity is virtually unanimously accepted as 597 [SIZE=-1]B.C.[/SIZE] during the second deportation of citizens from Judea to Babylon, which is documented in detail in 2 Kings 24:10-20. Furthermore, not only is the deportation recorded in the biblical account, but the ancient Chaldean records document it as well (Free and Vos, 1992, p. 194). Since Ezekiel’s visions began five years after the deportation, then a firm date of 592 [SIZE=-1]B.C.[/SIZE] can be established for the beginning of his prophecy. The prophet supplies other specific dates such as the seventh year (20:1), the ninth year (24:1), the eleventh year (26:1), and the latest date given as the twenty-seventh year (29:17) [Note: for an outline see Archer, 1974, pp. 368-369].
Due to the firmly established dating system that Ezekiel chose to use for his prophecy, the date of the prophecy regarding the city of Tyre, found in chapter 26, can be accurately established as the eleventh year after 597, which would be 586 [SIZE=-1]B.C.[/SIZE]
Apologetics Press - Tyre in Prophecy

Here is number two: Tyre


Ezekiel 26:3-5,7,12,14,16. Ezekiel was written around 593 to 571 B.C. This prophecy
predicted: 1) Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Tyre, a powerful and
glorious city. Fulfilled in 573 B.C. 2) Many nations would fight against
Tyre. I believe this was first fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar when he
couquered Tyre as a king of many nations. He no doubt pressed soldiers
from many nations to serve in his army. Later this part of the prophecy
was fulfilled again in 332 B.C. by Alexander the Great. During the
centuries that followed many nations cames against Tyre until it was
finally destroyed in 1291 A.D. 3) Tyre's stones, timber, and even dust would go
into the sea. The city would be made flat, like a rock's top. Apparently,
under Alexander the Great, the stones, timber, and even dust from daughter
Tyre, on the west coast of Lebanon, was dumped into the sea in order to
build a land bridge to Mother Tyre, which was actually a fortress like
island, a short distance away. 4) Other rulers would fear greatly when Tyre
was conquered. I believe this was fulfilled in 332 B.C.
Prophecy In The Bible.

Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:3
Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 573 BC, 332 BC, etc.
Bible prophecies fulfilled by Phoenicia's city of Tyre

If you wish to equivocate over these dates and the first battles keep in mind that the second more destructive and final predicted act occured in 332BC for which no equivocation can help. I only very rarely hear anyone challenge this prophecy on it date or writing. It is usuall conceded along with 90% of it's details. It is usually only who did what and for some reason always that a later different civilization built a new city there. If you research apocolyptic writing styles common in most cultures at that time it clears many things up. This site addresses it. Ezekiel's Tyre Prophecy Defended

Here's the problem with this: you would have to explicitly assume that the writer of Ezekiel is being truthful. You're placing your trust in a person who lived at least 2500 years ago. That's pretty trustful, I don't think I have that kind of trust. I could write a whole book, placing myself as someone living during the time of, say, the Civil War, and then speak of things in the 20th and 21st century, as if I was prophesying, and do it with very little problem. There's nothing, absolutely nothing, to suggest that that is not the case here. It's all based on trust and faith, and, for my own part, I'd rather trust reason. I don't have much use for faith.

 

[1robin]

Here's the problem with this: you would have to explicitly assume that the writer of Ezekiel is being truthful. You're placing your trust in a person who lived at least 2500 years ago.

When a person lived is irrelevant to their Honesty. Scientists claim they know what happened 4 billion years ago, without any witnesses. What Ceaser, Plato, or Socrates said is quoted as fact in every school there is, everyday. It is only with the Bible that these double standards raise their ugly heads. The Jews invented textual integrity and transmission systems that are unimaginable. They checked and rechecked everything. Christ quoted them, and never hinted at any dicrepency. Here is a site that quotes Thucydides and his Peloponnesian war as fact. Peloponnesian War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I have read it and it is roughly the same time frame and it is very accurate despite it's having about 5% of the textual attestation the Bible has.

That's pretty trustful, I don't think I have that kind of trust

Then you should dismiss every single other figure and event in ancient history.

I could write a whole book, placing myself as someone living during the time of, say, the Civil War, and then speak of things in the 20th and 21st century, as if I was prophesying, and do it with very little problem.

That would last about 5 minutes with a textual scholar.

There's nothing, absolutely nothing, to suggest that that is not the case here. It's all based on trust and faith, and, for my own part, I'd rather trust reason. I don't have much use for faith.

No, in fact the only data we have suggests the opposite. There is not a single competing contemporary claim of his dates. It is a fact of history as strong as any other. Either reject them all or not. Don't arbitrarily cherry pick based on bias and preference. The Bible has by many many times over greater textual integrity than any other work of ancient history. Did you read the links that mention the events he was involved in during his life as being recorded by the Chaldean's (I believe) as well. The BIble has 25,000 historical corroberations and not a single proven mistake. It is used as a primary tool in even secular archeology. I just read a secular history of ancient middle eastern war and the Bible was the primary resource.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

When a person lived is irrelevant to their Honesty. Scientists claim they know what happened 4 billion years ago, without any witnesses. What Ceaser, Plato, or Socrates said is quoted as fact in every school there is, everyday. It is only with the Bible that these double standards raise their ugly heads. The Jews invented textual integrity and transmission systems that are unimaginable. They checked and rechecked everything. Christ quoted them, and never hinted at any dicrepency. Here is a site that quotes Thucydides and his Peloponnesian war as fact. Peloponnesian War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I have read it and it is roughly the same time frame and it is very accurate despite it's having about 5% of the textual attestation the Bible has.

If you want me to be completely honest, I am somewhat skeptical of, well, just about everything dealing with knowledge of some kind. I take absolutely nothing at face value, and trust nothing that I haven't, personally, put in the time and effort of research to determine it's authenticity and accuracy.

Then you should dismiss every single other figure and event in ancient history.

See my previous response.

That would last about 5 minutes with a textual scholar.

Right, and this due to any number of different factors, factors that cannot necessarily be applied to the biblical texts or any other ancient text.

No, in fact the only data we have suggests the opposite. There is not a single competing contemporary claim of his dates. It is a fact of history as strong as any other. Either reject them all or not. Don't arbitrarily cherry pick based on bias and preference. The Bible has by many many times over greater textual integrity than any other work of ancient history. Did you read the links that mention the events he was involved in during his life as being recorded by the Chaldean's (I believe) as well. The BIble has 25,000 historical corroberations and not a single proven mistake. It is used as a primary tool in even secular archeology. I just read a secular history of ancient middle eastern war and the Bible was the primary resource.

I spent nearly 30 years studying and practicing Christian apologetics. And, while I'm no longer a Christian, I still keep up with the debates, as it's something that interests me. However, I came to the point where the reasoning behind apologetics was no longer convincing enough for me to stay a Christian, not to mention the philosophical reasons I have for leaving. Now, as far as textual evidence of ancient people, places, and things, I'm just as skeptical of non-biblical texts and things as I am biblical ones. Did Plato and Alexander the Great exist and do the things recorded of them? Who knows, there's certainly enough room to doubt, especially regarding Alexander the Great. I could go on and on, but I'll just say one more, that may or may not blow your mind: as it says on my 'religion' title, I am a Zen Buddhist. Now, did Siddhartha Gautama, Shakyamuni Buddha actually exist? Who knows, but, I think there's more room for doubt of his existence than evidence that he actually did exist.

 

[Me Myself]

When a person lived is irrelevant to their Honesty. Scientists claim they know what happened 4 billion years ago, without any witnesses. What Ceaser, Plato, or Socrates said is quoted as fact in every school there is, everyday. It is only with the Bible that these double standards raise their ugly heads.

Did you know that Krishna defeated a lot of asuras (giant demons) ? One of them, he defeated when he was a baby! and many as a child! Like the giant serpent of the lake!

This is true, it is written in an ancient book. The book says Krishna is honest, so you can trust him.

Also, the Odyssey and the Illiad, while they contain historical facts they also contain a lot of dealing with greek gods that made wonderful mireacles and prophecies. Should we also assume this truly happen, so to not have this double standards you speak of?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Did you know that Krishna defeated a lot of asuras (giant demons) ? One of them, he defeated when he was a baby! and many as a child! Like the giant serpent of the lake!

This is true, it is written in an ancient book. The book says Krishna is honest, so you can trust him.

Also, the Odyssey and the Illiad, while they contain historical facts they also contain a lot of dealing with greek gods that made wonderful mireacles and prophecies. Should we also assume this truly happen, so to not have this double standards you speak of?

I know you were being funny, but you bring up an interesting point. There's just as much evidence for the 'historical accuracy' of the Bhagavad Gita as there is the Bible. Textually speaking, there's not much of a difference. Personally, I find the Bhagavad Gita more trustworthy and truthful, but this is probably due more to a bias towards eastern religion. But, there's just as much evidence for the historical existence of Krishna as any biblical figure, especially one around the same time as his supposed existence.

 

[Me Myself]

I know you were being funny, but you bring up an interesting point. There's just as much evidence for the 'historical accuracy' of the Bhagavad Gita as there is the Bible. Textually speaking, there's not much of a difference. Personally, I find the Bhagavad Gita more trustworthy and truthful, but this is probably due more to a bias towards eastern religion. But, there's just as much evidence for the historical existence of Krishna as any biblical figure, especially one around the same time as his supposed existence.

Actually, I was being serious about a funny reality, as opposed to me generaly being funny about a serious one

If he doesn´t want double standards then by all means let´s not have them.

 

[1robin]

Did you know that Krishna defeated a lot of asuras (giant demons) ? One of them, he defeated when he was a baby! and many as a child! Like the giant serpent of the lake!

This is true, it is written in an ancient book. The book says Krishna is honest, so you can trust him.

Also, the Odyssey and the Illiad, while they contain historical facts they also contain a lot of dealing with greek gods that made wonderful mireacles and prophecies. Should we also assume this truly happen, so to not have this double standards you speak of?

I fail to see why this is relevant, true, or even meaningfull. I never said that anything that is in an ancient book is correct. However one that is consistent with all known history is far more rationally concluded to be realiable than one that is not. I guess by your standards every story in every book written over just a few years ago must be rejected. I guess the civil war, Mexican war, French revolution, Thermopyle, Platea, Marathon, the conquoring of Babylon, the destruction of the Aztecs, and the birth of Xexes never happened either.

 

[1robin]

I know you were being funny, but you bring up an interesting point. There's just as much evidence for the 'historical accuracy' of the Bhagavad Gita as there is the Bible. Textually speaking, there's not much of a difference. Personally, I find the Bhagavad Gita more trustworthy and truthful, but this is probably due more to a bias towards eastern religion. But, there's just as much evidence for the historical existence of Krishna as any biblical figure, especially one around the same time as his supposed existence.

You made a claim to knowledge here, so the burden of proof is on you. Show that both (or to make it easier) that either the textual reliability of the historical accuracy of the Gits equals the Bible. The Gita is never even on a list of rivals with the Bible or any other list of somewhat accurate historical texts that I have seen.

 

[JustWondering]

However one that is consistent with all known history is far more rationally concluded to be realiable than one that is not.

According to the bible the earth is only what, 5-6 thousand years old and there was a global flood. You call that consistent with all known history?

 

[Me Myself]

I fail to see why this is relevant, true, or even meaningfull. I never said that anything that is in an ancient book is correct. However one that is consistent with all known history is far more rationally concluded to be realiable than one that is not. I guess by your standards every story in every book written over just a few years ago must be rejected. I guess the civil war, Mexican war, French revolution, Thermopyle, Platea, Marathon, the conquoring of Babylon, the destruction of the Aztecs, and the birth of Xexes never happened either.

Genesis is not consistent with known reality. Donkeys speaking is not consistent with known reality. The Earth not having more than 6000 years is not even by far consistent with known reality, the earth being a dome is not consistent with known reality.

I am sorry, but the bible reads as good as the Iliad when it comes to consistency with known realities.

Furthermore, for each thing you find inconsistent with known reality in the Iliad I will immediately post something inconsistent with known reality of the bible.

By all means let´s start now. You up?

 

[Storm]

According to the bible the earth is only what, 5-6 thousand years old and there was a global flood. You call that consistent with all known history?

The age of the earth isn't in the Bible. Some nutter calculated it based on the stated life spans and genealogies, I think.

Dumb, but you can't blame the book.