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More love directed at the Mormons!
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
What in the world would make you think jonny doesn't read and study the Bible as much as you do? That fact is, Joe, there are over 30,000 different Christian denominations, the vast, vast majority of which base their beliefs solely on the Bible and claim to be interpreting it with the aid of the Holy Ghost. How do you explain 30,000 differences of opinion on God's word?joeboonda said:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
My goal (and I assume it is pretty much the same goal as jonny's and every Latter-day Saint's on this forum) is to educate you as to what we really believe and why. We don't expect to convert you, and if you expect to convert us, you're wasting your time. But this whole discussion got started because of your misconceptions about LDS doctrine. We're just trying to clear those misconceptions up.joeboonda said:
nutshell
Well-Known Member
I don't buy that the core beliefs are pretty close for a second. All proclaim Christ as the Savior, but it pretty much gets mixed from there.joeboonda said:
Of course we believe one can know the truth and we believe truth can be found probably in all these different denominations...even ones outside Christianity. However, there is only one that contains all the truth and is led directly by Jesus Christ himself.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Hey all, I gotta sign off for now, work in the morning and all. Enjoyed the discussions/debates, etc. hope no offenses were made. Please read my 'long' posts with the verse comparisons in them, they should be interesting anyway. I will see you all another day. I love you and pray you have a safe and happy Christmas!
Sincerely,
Joeboonda
Sincerely,
Joeboonda
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I don't think they are anywhere near as close as you do. First off, Catholics comprise half of the world's 2 billion Christians. Your beliefs don't seem very close to theirs, to me. The Orthodox Churches constitute another large percent and your beliefs aren't like theirs either. I am aware of numerous differences between, say, Anglicans and Baptists, or Pentacostals and Lutherans. I do believe one can know the truth, but why do you think that, believing in the same God, looking to the same Savior, and trusting the same Holy Ghost for guidance, you and I are poles apart in our thinking? If we could all come up with the same answers by reading the Bible, why aren't we?joeboonda said:
My goal is to defend my beliefs and to correct your misconceptions. Since you don't care about what I have to say, I'm not going to bother anymore though. I would never attempt to destroy someone else's faith. I find that to be a pathetic waste of my time.joeboonda said:
I have read "his book." Thanks for asking. I learn how God has interacted with other people through "his book." I learn how God interacts with me through my personal experiences. Like I said, God is my final authority - not the book. How God interacts with me in my life is much more important than anything I could ever read. Don't get me wrong, the Bible is important, but I see it as a compass to point me in the right direction.joeboonda said:
DeepShadow
White Crow
hmmmm....long post, long post...ah! Is this it? This long post where you make the same straw-man argument over and over again? I'm referring to:
Will we? I won't. I'll say what I've said time and time again: that nothing in any of these statements would prohibit God from adding to His own book. This then begs the original question: did Joseph Smith speak for God? If he did, there's no commandment being broken. If he didn't, then a commandment was being broken. Either way, these scriptures cannot be used as evidence for or against.
A whole lot of pixels to waste on a circular argument.
See, these comprise a straw-man fallacy because the author is supplying the arguments of his opponents. See the part above where he says "Mormons will say..."joeboonda said:
Will we? I won't. I'll say what I've said time and time again: that nothing in any of these statements would prohibit God from adding to His own book. This then begs the original question: did Joseph Smith speak for God? If he did, there's no commandment being broken. If he didn't, then a commandment was being broken. Either way, these scriptures cannot be used as evidence for or against.
A whole lot of pixels to waste on a circular argument.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
HI, good point. My family used to be Catholic, but are now protestants. There are a lot of differences in doctrines within 'christianity', and there are a lot of similarities. Like, I sometimes attend a contemporary service at the Methodist Church, and they teach God's grace and love, as does the Southern Baptist and Lutheran Church I have attended here. They teach from the Bible only though. Of course the Catholic Church recognizes the apocrypha as the Word of God and protestants do not. Just as you recognize your books. But most bible-only churches are pretty close in doctrine, some may say you can lose your salvation, others that you cant, or some may speak in tongues and others believe it is gibberish, or there are differences in the way they hold services and different ceremonies and such, but that has to do a lot with where they came from. A christian from Germany will worship differently than one from the Jungles of Africa, but they both are worshipping God. Most believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose again and is coming back again. Thats the main thing.Katzpur said:
Now where I have a problem with a church is when they say salvation is found only through their church. I don't say they are not saved, but that they say their church is the one true church even though in Corinthians 12:13, it says that we have ALL been baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ. I believe if a person trusts the Jesus of the Bible for salvation, trusts that his blood paid for their sins, that he redeemed, (or purchased) them, then they are saved forevermore. But there are churches, like the Catholic Church, Church of Christ, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and LDS, that claim their church to be the one true church, that salvation is found not only from faith in Christ, but also must be through their church and its sacraments in addition to simple faith. I know that LDS believes we will all get a chance in Heaven to get it right, and that the Catholic church 'embraces their separated bretheren', although their official stance is still that they are the one true church. I feel that we, the ordinary believers, ARE the church, anyone who has accepted Christ as their Saviour, IS the Church. I feel the focus should be on Jesus and not any particular church, Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, he is to be worshipped, he will be proclaimed King of Kings and Lord of Lords and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Ok, well, hope that helps clarify my beliefs.
Sincerely,
Joeboonda
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Good point. My family used to be Catholic but is now protestant and has been for some time. The Catholic Church recognizes the aprocrypha in addition to the Bible as you recoginize your books in addition to the Bible, so I won't compare that. But among Bible-only believing churches, the differences are not so major really. We all believe that Jesus died for our sins, rose again, and is coming back again. Now, due to their background or maybe to some different interpretation of scripture, we may have some differences on the lesser issues. Some may believe one can lose their salvation, others do not, or some speak in tongues and others call it gibberish, some baptize by immersion, some by sprinkling, etc. And all worship services are not the same. Like, a church in Germany would have different music and worship styles than one say in the jungles of Africa, but they are still worshipping the same God. I have attended many different denominations, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Non-denominational, and they all teach the love and grace of God. I sometimes attend a contemporary worship service at the Methodist Church, and they teach of God's love and sacrifice of his Son just like the Lutheran and Southern Baptist I attend down the street. They teach Christ crucified as payment for our sin offered as a free gift.Katzpur said:
Where I have a problem is when a church claims that their church is the one true church and salvation is found not in faith in Christ alone, but in faith in Christ plus the sacraments of their particular church. Although I Cor. 12:13 says that we have all been baptized by one Spirit into one body. We ALL are in the body of Christ from the moment we first placed our trust in him for our salvation, forevermore. We, the people, are the church, the temple of the Holy Spirit, sealed unto the day of redemtion. Now there are churches, like the Catholic Church, the Church of Christ, the Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah's Witnesses and LDS that claim they are the one true church and salvation is found in no other. Now I know LDS recognizes truth in other religions and believes we will all get a chance to understand and get it right in Heaven, and the Catholic Church still 'recognizes their separated bretheren', although the official stance of the vatican is that they are the one true church. Church of Christ believe they are the only true church, and Seventh Day Adventists believe that 'Sunday' worship will be the mark of the antichrist in the future and we are all wrong for not worshipping on Saturday. Now I am not saying people in these churches are not saved, I don't know only God knows. I believe the focus should be on Christ, though. It is he who paid for our sins, He is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, He redeemed (purchased) us with His own blood. Jesus, and Jesus alone gets all the credit, not Jesus plus some particular church. We are the church he bought. Jesus is the foucus, He is the Saviour, He is to be worshipped and given all praise and glory. At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. He is King of King and Lord of Lords, I trust in Him for my salvation, and nothing else. If you can understand how I see that, I don't think we are 'poles apart'. I hope that helps clarify my beliefs a little bit, and I am not against any of the churches mentioned above, just stating my belief.
Sincerely,
Joeboonda
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Hey jonny, I do care about what you have to say, even if I am slow to answer everything. I have read the links you posted, too. I don't want to destroy your faith, that is a waste of time. I am trying to understand your beliefs and share my beliefs and disbeliefs too. I know I throw stuff out there to see what your answers to them are, we all offer our reasons and info, but I only want everyone to really examine our beliefs and get closer to truth. Anyway, sorry if that is how I seem to you, I will try to do better, you are a nice person and I have enjoyed reading your answers to my questions and posts.jonny said:
Sincerely,
Joeboonda