More love directed at the Mormons!

[jonny]

Ok, well I have attempted to answer all the questions and engage in dialogue all I can. Sorry you feel that way, I will be back another time with more questions and information that I would like responses on, so you may have a chance to clear up my misconceptions of your faith, and so I can share my beliefs with you, too. Ok, I am off for now. Have a Merry Christmas, and, no hard feelings, ok?

Sincerely,

Joeboonda

I wouldn't call something you find on the internet your "misconception." A misconception is something that you already think we believe. You can find out if your misconception is true by asking a yes or no question. For instance, do you believe that man came before God? No. Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God? Yes.

See how easy that is? It is also a lot easier to clear up misconceptions if you don't go filling up your head with new ones. You can find out what our church teaches in the link I posted above (that includes books, lesson manuals, magazines, sermons, videos, and everything you could ever want to read about LDS doctrine). Bookmark it and make a habit out of reading it. :bounce

Here is a good place to start. Simplified LDS theology, all in one book:
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-1,00.html

 

[joeboonda]

Ok, Jonny, I will take a look at your book you made the link to. I still do not understand how, with all those quotes from Joseph Smith and others about God being a man before He was our God, that you say you don't believe that. And if you do, then he was in an already created universe, but the Bible says he made the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day of creation. Anyway, I gotta go shopping a bit, will get back later. Also, you say God was once a man in Jesus Christ, this is true, but he was not a sinner, he was sinless, and perfect, and still God. He came, not to earn his way to Godhood, but because he was already God, and the only way He could save us was to die in our place. Its a bit different than the 'as man is God was, and as God is man may be' theory. Ok, off to shop, cya later.

 

[joeboonda]

Ok, I had to look at your book before I left. Here is something from the first article (good starting point, eh?)

How Can We Know God?


We can know God if we will--

1. Believe that he exists and that he loves us (see Mosiah 4:9).
2. Study the scriptures (see 2 Timothy 3:14-17).
3. Pray to him (see James 1:5).
4. Obey all his commandments as best we can (see John 14:21-23).

As we do these things, we will come to know God and eventually have eternal life.

What jumps out at me right away is the last line. Says we will EVENTUALLY have eternal life. Like its something we must earn. My Bible says He that believes HAS eternal life and IS passed from death to life, and shall not come back into condemnation. (see John 5:24)

This doctrine is that maybe, eventually, if you are good enough, you might someday, hopefully have eternal life. My bible says it was written so we may KNOW we HAVE eternal life right here, right now, from the moment we believe, having been washed by the blood of the Lamb, imputed with HIS righteousness, not our own, and sealed by the Holy Spirit UNTO the day of redemption.
So right away, in just the first article, I find what I must say is not real good doctrine, at least from my understanding of scripture and our 'so great salvation' given freely to all who call on the name of Jesus. Ok, now I gotta go shop! Lol! Catch ya later.

Sincerely,

Joeboonda

 

[john63]

I know this person said some really mean things about our faith, but I honestly don't really think he's mad at Mormons. I think he may be having problems in his life that we don't know about. He's probably taking his problems out on other groups as well as us. The thing to ask yourself in this situation is; how would Jesus treat this person. Jesus would treat him with love and kindness.

 

[jonny]

What jumps out at me right away is the last line. Says we will EVENTUALLY have eternal life. Like its something we must earn. My Bible says He that believes HAS eternal life and IS passed from death to life, and shall not come back into condemnation. (see John 5:24)

This doctrine is that maybe, eventually, if you are good enough, you might someday, hopefully have eternal life. My bible says it was written so we may KNOW we HAVE eternal life right here, right now, from the moment we believe, having been washed by the blood of the Lamb, imputed with HIS righteousness, not our own, and sealed by the Holy Spirit UNTO the day of redemption.
So right away, in just the first article, I find what I must say is not real good doctrine, at least from my understanding of scripture and our 'so great salvation' given freely to all who call on the name of Jesus. Ok, now I gotta go shop! Lol! Catch ya later.

Sincerely,

Joeboonda

Eternal life in Mormonism is the term for being saved or life with God (it might be the same for you). It is also overcoming the second death, which is only possible through Jesus Christ. It is gift from God.

Since Mormons to not believe in the "once saved always saved" doctrine, we believe that cannot ultimately achieve Eternal Life until the judgment. We do have to qualify for Eternal Life through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to his commandments. There are plenty of scriptures that discuss enduring to the end to achieve eternal life (Matt. 24:13).

 

[jonny]

Ok, Jonny, I will take a look at your book you made the link to. I still do not understand how, with all those quotes from Joseph Smith and others about God being a man before He was our God, that you say you don't believe that. And if you do, then he was in an already created universe, but the Bible says he made the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day of creation.

I never said I don't believe that, I just don't agree with the anti-Mormon interpretation of the doctrine. I don't completely understand this doctrine. I do know that he created our universe, so it wouldn't make sense for him to have originated out of the same universe, but this is space doctrine.

Anyway, I gotta go shopping a bit, will get back later. Also, you say God was once a man in Jesus Christ, this is true, but he was not a sinner, he was sinless, and perfect, and still God. He came, not to earn his way to Godhood, but because he was already God, and the only way He could save us was to die in our place. Its a bit different than the 'as man is God was, and as God is man may be' theory. Ok, off to shop, cya later.

Do you believe that through Christ you can be perfected? At that point you will also be sinless and perfect also. That is the beauty of the atonement. In any case, God was still a man, even if he wasn't exactly like us. He had to learn obedience to the commandments, just like we do. He was God, but as a baby he was also dependant on a loving mother and father, just like we are. We know very little about the life of Christ, but I bet he went through many of the same struggles that we go through.

I really don't see why some Christians have such a hard time imagining God as a man. It is the basis of your entire faith.

 

[Katzpur]

Ok, Jonny, I will take a look at your book you made the link to. I still do not understand how, with all those quotes from Joseph Smith and others about God being a man before He was our God, that you say you don't believe that. And if you do, then he was in an already created universe, but the Bible says he made the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day of creation. Anyway, I gotta go shopping a bit, will get back later. Also, you say God was once a man in Jesus Christ, this is true, but he was not a sinner, he was sinless, and perfect, and still God. He came, not to earn his way to Godhood, but because he was already God, and the only way He could save us was to die in our place. Its a bit different than the 'as man is God was, and as God is man may be' theory. Ok, off to shop, cya later.

Joe,

If God existed prior to the time He created the universe, where did He exist? If there was a time the universe didn't exist, and God created it, where was He and what was He doing at this time? Regardless of whether you accept that He is an exalted man, if you believe He has always existed and at some point created the universe, you've got to believe something about His existence prior to "the beginning." Since we have never been given any detail at all about God's existence prior to when He created the heavens and the earth, it's pointless to speculate.

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

I know this person said some really mean things about our faith, but I honestly don't really think he's mad at Mormons.

Well, that would be a enormous understatement! I don't think he's "mad at Mormons." He may not hate Mormons either. But he doesn't understand our faith and he has made no real effort to. This thread, as you may have noticed, is over 225 posts long. (Hey, we're almost half way to seventy times seven! ) Most of the non-LDS posts here are Joeboonda's. I don't expect you to read all of them, but if you were to do so, you'd probably notice that they are primarily cut-and-paste articles from anti-Mormon websites. Several of us have attempted to respond to the misrepresentations and (in some cases) out-and-out lies he has posted, but nothing any of us have said seems to be sinking in. He continues to repeat the same worn-out arguments over and over again. It's just getting very tiresome to even try any more. But if we don't try, the last post is inevitably going to be nothing more than a caricature of our beliefs.

I think he may be having problems in his life that we don't know about. He's probably taking his problems out on other groups as well as us.

Actually, we appear to be his favorite target.

The thing to ask yourself in this situation is; how would Jesus treat this person. Jesus would treat him with love and kindness.

I agree. Thank you for reminding us. It's difficult sometimes, but you are certainly right.

Kathryn

 

[Green Gaia]

***ADMIN POST***

A reminder to all non-LDS members, this is not a debate forum. You may ask respectful questions (and please only ask a question once, not over and over) here, but you are not to debate or challenge LDS beliefs in this forum. If this continues, I will have to issue warnings and lock this thread. Thank you.

 

[Aqualung]

No, don't lock it! It may soon be the longest thread in the forum! :biglaugh:

 

[Green Gaia]

No, don't lock it! It may soon be the longest thread in the forum! :biglaugh:

Not even close, you have about 700 more posts to even in the ballpark on that one.

 

[Aqualung]

Not even close, you have about 700 more posts to even in the ballpark on that one.

Oh really? Well you certainly can't shut us down when we have sooo much catching up to do! We can't waste our time with petty squables about shutting it down or reopening it, so if you could kindly just leave us alone... :tsk:

:biglaugh: Just kidding.

 

[joeboonda]

***ADMIN POST***

A reminder to all non-LDS members, this is not a debate forum. You may ask respectful questions (and please only ask a question once, not over and over) here, but you are not to debate or challenge LDS beliefs in this forum. If this continues, I will have to issue warnings and lock this thread. Thank you.

Uh-oh. Ok, sorry, Maize, that is my fault. We were on a debate thread about Mormonism, I think Abrahamic Mormonism or something like that, when I was referred to a reply on this thread. So we began debating here, I see, though, that it IS a LDS place, not a debate place. Please do not issue me a warning, I will stop posting here, although I would have liked to answer the latest posts, I will not. To the person that thinks I am mad or something so I am taking it out on Mormons, lol, fear not, I am SUPER happy! I just was trying to get them to see the light as they are trying to get me to do the same. We have had some nice discussions, except when I've been insulted for being a crummy debater, but, hey, I am learning.

Anyway, Maize, thanks for the warning before the warning points are issued, I don't need any more, lol! I will cease to debate on this thread, I will go to another if I want to debate Mormon doctrine vs. Bible-believing only doctrine. (I fall in the lines of Baptist-independent or southern, protestant, free-grace doctrine, basically).

Ok, well, I love you all and I will pray for you as I hope you pray for me too. I hope you have a wonderful Christmas and New Year's and that you and your families are all safe and sound and together to celebrate our Saviour's birth. Merry Christmas, and God bless you all! May the peace that passes all understanding be ever present in your lives and homes, may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with us all.

In Christian Love,

Joeboonda

 

[Aqualung]

You could go back to the abrahamic mormons thread. I'm not exactly sure why your posts got moved into this thread in the first place...

 

[jonny]

You could go back to the abrahamic mormons thread. I'm not exactly sure why your posts got moved into this thread in the first place...

Because they had nothing to do with the Book of Mormon, which was the focus of that thread.

 

[Aqualung]

Oh, that's right. I forgot what my own thread was about! Well, then, I see we have a bit of a problem here...

 

[BUDDY]

I have seen way in which many people have come after you guys in sucha n untactful way, and I just shake my head at it. When it comes to the discussion of individual religions, I believe that you do more for your cause by acting civil, than by acting like a horses rear end. I have many times avoided debating Mormons because I think that you guys are some of the nicest people in the world and I don't want to take the chance of offending you. Then again, you are some of the nicest people and in the world and I think you are missguided. It can be frustrating for those of us who disagree with you too, but I promise I will do my best to never be direspectful or mean when discussing religion.

 

[Katzpur]

I have seen way in which many people have come after you guys in sucha n untactful way, and I just shake my head at it. When it comes to the discussion of individual religions, I believe that you do more for your cause by acting civil, than by acting like a horses rear end. I have many times avoided debating Mormons because I think that you guys are some of the nicest people in the world and I don't want to take the chance of offending you. Then again, you are some of the nicest people and in the world and I think you are missguided. It can be frustrating for those of us who disagree with you too, but I promise I will do my best to never be direspectful or mean when discussing religion.

What a nice thing to say, EEWRED! (The part about us being nice, I mean -- not the part about us being misguided. ) I have no problem with people thinking we're misguided -- seriously. I don't have any problem with people who want to debate my beliefs either. I'm not offended when I'm told I'm wrong. It's how some people go about telling me I'm wrong that bothers me sometimes. (Like my mom used to say, "Honey, it's not what you say, it's how you say it!" ) I love being asked difficult questions about my beliefs because it forces me to examine those beliefs. That's how I become knowledgable in my faith. You would never offend me by debating me because it clearly would not be your intention to do so. Having posted on boards such as this for close to ten years now, I have pretty well learned how to spot a jerk a mile away. I've read your posts on various topics and have always found you to be respectful and tolerant. Anyway, thanks again for the kind words. They are much appreciated.

Kathryn