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More love directed at the Mormons!

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Here is the passage of Lot we discussed:

19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

19:9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

(King James Bible, Genesis)

Note he said for the men to take his daughters and do what seemed right to them, only do unto these men nothing, for they had come under his roof. It is apparent that he is offering his daughters in their place, at least to me. So, one translation is the truth, the other is not the truth. If you see the story different than I do, than I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on this verse. Thanks.

Joeboonda
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
Hey, I have no argument with you on that. But nothing changes the fact that we don't have the original manuscripts. What part of that don't you get?
I understand we do not have the originals, I have no problem with that, as the largest percent of the copies agree together.
And what about all of the other translations out there? By what reasoning do you conclude that they are translated incorrectly and the KJV is letter-perfect?
I know there are good translations out there, and in other languages as well. However some of the modern translations use the Greek translated by Westcott and Hort, who did not chose to use the Textus Receptus, but rather accepted two manuscripts, the Vanaticus and Sinaticus which, although among the oldest, did not agree with the others, and had many changes and omissions. The modern versions, NIV, NASB, etc., are 95% in agreement with the KJV, but there is that 5% difference that concerns me. I could give some verses if you would like to see what I mean, but I try to keep this short.
On second thought, I'm not even sure what your beef really is, since we use the KJV ourselves. Why are Joseph Smith's footnotes really that big of a deal to you?
Well, you call them his footnotes, but he actually re-translated the Bible in effect calling God's Word, that he promised to preserve, that Christians have based their entire lives and doctrines on, throughout Christianity, that Kings have tried to destroy, that many gave their lives to protect, well, wrong. I believe God was able to preserve his word down through history, and when someone comes and changes it, I have to question that.

Sincerely,

Joeboonda
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
About the JST bible. First off, most of it isn't cannonized. The RLDS church has cannonoized it, but (I have been told) since it was out of the control of the LDS church for so many years they just added it as footnotes. When members of the LDS church quote scripture, they almost always use the KJV of the bible. If the JST is even brought up it is more of an interesting side note. Only one book from the JST has been cannonized, and that it Joseph Smith-Matthew, which is found in the Pearl of Great Price.

One thing that is important when it comes to the JST is that it is the inspired translation of the Bible. Joseph Smith didn't need to know Hebrew and Greek because he wasn't translating from any manuscripts. I see his translation as an inspiried clarification of some confusing scriptures.

As for the Bible, do you really believe that Moses was there when Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden? I don't. How did Moses know what to write about then...someone obviously told him the story. It was passed down, either verbally or through writing. I guess its even possible that Moses learned of the story through revelation or inspiration - or that Moses didn't write it at all! Whatever the case, most of the Biblical writings are second hand. The people who were wrote them were not there any more than Joseph Smith was there. I see it perfectly plausible that mistakes were made, and I see the JST as an act of a loving God. God didn't put the Bible together, but since it was the core book of so many faiths, he certainly wanted to have a part in clarifying what was in it.

I will always put God above the Bible. The bible is a very important book, but in the end its still a book. God is much more.
I do not believe Moses was in the Garden, I do believe he was inspired of God to write the truth as found in the Bible. You say God did not put the Bible together, that it is just a book? Yes, God used men to write and put together his Word for us, the Bible says he did:

1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(King James Bible, Hebrews)
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(King James Bible, 2 Peter)
3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works
(King James Bible, 2 Timothy)
12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
(King James Bible, Psalms)

Ok, so I believe the Bible is God's inspired word just as scripture says. I believe he preserved it for us just as he said he would. I believe also, that if somebody changes God's word, and makes verses, Like the one about Lot and his daughters, to mean something different, then one is right, and one is wrong. One is true, and God's word, and one is false, and not God's word. I do not believe someone inspired by God would change what God says. That is all I am saying. You say you will not put the Bible above God, and that is good. You say the Bible is just a book and God is so much more. Both true to an extent. The Bible is not 'just a book', it is God's inspired word to us. To learn the truth about God, he gave us his Word. We are told in the Bible to try the spirits and to study the scripture so we may know God, and know what is not of God. It says to 'desire the sincere milk of the word that ye may grow thereby', (I Peter 2:2). To know God and to grow, we need his Word. We are to measure any doctrine by His Word. His word is like an compass that keeps us on course and not 'blown about by every wind of doctrine'. If someone's experience or doctrine does not line up with God's word, it may be in error or of a false teacher. The Bible is very important, we need it and must use it as our final authority, for it is truly God's word for us.

Sincerely,

Joeboonda
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
joeboonda said:
The modern versions, NIV, NASB, etc., are 95% in agreement with the KJV, but there is that 5% difference that concerns me. I could give some verses if you would like to see what I mean, but I try to keep this short.
I would like very much for you to give me some verses. How about three or four of the same verses from each version, since I have only the KJV and can't verify this for myself. If these other versions are not in King James English (which I assume they're not), your 95% figure is obviously way, way off. There would be differences in literally every verse in the Bible.

Well, you call them his footnotes, but he actually re-translated the Bible in effect calling God's Word, that he promised to preserve, that Christians have based their entire lives and doctrines on, throughout Christianity, that Kings have tried to destroy, that many gave their lives to protect, well, wrong. I believe God was able to preserve his word down through history, and when someone comes and changes it, I have to question that.
He didn't call God's word wrong, Joe. He called man's record of God's word wrong. There is a huge difference.

What you are saying makes no sense at all. My KJV reads exactly the same as your KJV. I already gave you some every typical examples of the differences in the KJV (which we use) and the JST (which are footnotes to the KJV). God never, ever, ever promised, Joe, what you seem to think He did. God's word is perfect. But when human beings are involved in copying and translating, there is a potential for error. And to deny this is just plain naive beyond belief. On the other hand, if Joseph Smith really was a prophet, He would not have changed anything. He would have simply restored the errors that crept in over time. The whole issue centers around whether or not Joseph is what he claimed to be.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
NoName said:
Amen, Brother! Joe, I'm not a mormon. I will probably never be a mormon. That doesn't mean I can't actually listen to their arguments, and figure out why they're wrong. Nobody will ever respect a debater who throws lies around, and then doesn't bother to look at the evidence the other side is sporting. Be a man. Do a little research into your own beliefs, and then find out why you're right.
I do listen to the arguments, I do figure why they are wrong, I do not lie, I do look into the other side's evidence, I am a man, I do know my beliefs, and I know why I am right. Why don't you research what we are debating and join in?

Thanks,

Joeboonda
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
joeboonda said:
I do listen to the arguments, I do figure why they are wrong, I do not lie, I do look into the other side's evidence, I am a man, I do know my beliefs, and I know why I am right. Why don't you research what we are debating and join in?

Thanks,

Joeboonda
That's one thing wrong with religious debates. I know why I'm right and you're wrong, but we'll never convince each other and the debates easily degenerate into this pointless rhetoric.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
I would like very much for you to give me some verses. How about three or four of the same verses from each version, since I have only the KJV and can't verify this for myself. If these other versions are not in King James English (which I assume they're not), your 95% figure is obviously way, way off. There would be differences in literally every verse in the Bible.

What you are saying makes no sense at all. My KJV reads exactly the same as your KJV. I already gave you some every typical examples of the differences in the KJV (which we use) and the JST (which are footnotes to the KJV). God never, ever, ever promised, Joe, what you seem to think He did. God's word is perfect. But when human beings are involved in copying and translating, there is a potential for error. And to deny this is just plain naive beyond belief. On the other hand, if Joseph Smith really was a prophet, He would not have changed anything. He would have simply restored the errors that crept in over time. The whole issue centers around whether or not Joseph is what he claimed to be.
Ok, there are hundreds of verses, I will put a few anyway:

Here are some on the Deity of Christ:

3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(King James Bible, 1 Timothy)
3:16 And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
(NAS, 1 Timothy)

Notice the changes, the Bible says, "God was manifest in the flesh." they change it to "He who was revealed in the flesh." By changing God to He they take out the fact that Jesus is God.
3:16 It is quite true that the way to live a godly lif is not an easy matter. But hte answer lies in Christ, who came to earth as a man, was proved spotless and pure in his Spirit, was served by angels, was preached among the nations, was accepted by men everywhere, and was received up again to his glory in heaven.
(Living Bible 1 Timothy)

Notice the changes, all in one verse:
1. It leaves out that Jesus is God.
2. "It is quite true" is the opposite of "without controversy".
3. A "mystery" has nothing to do with not being an "easy matter".
4. The Bible says..."preached unto the Gentiles" NOT "accepted by men everywhere".
Jesus was not accepted of men everywhere, Isaiah 53:3 says, "He is despised and
rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief..."
5. Completely leaves out "seen of angels".
6. Adds "in heaven" and "again".

Romans 14:10b, 12 KJV "For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of CHRIST...So then every one of us shall give account of himself to GOD."

NAS "For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of GOD...So then each one of us shall give account of himself to GOD."

Do you see that? Do you SEE that? Do you see THAT? Just one small word is changed, yet, There is no proof that Jesus is God in these verses!

20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(King James Bible, Acts)
RSV Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.
In the KJV, God's church was purchased by God's blood, Therefore, Christ is God, as it was Christ who shed His blood. The RSV separates Christ from God, proving nothing. Pretty tricky.

2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
(King James Bible, Hebrews)
RSV For both he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all one origin...

The RSV adds "origin". Christ did not have an origin. Psalm 90:2 says, "even from everlasting to everlasting tou art God." By saying Christ had the same origin as man, they are saying Christ was a created being.

There are many verses of people worshipping Christ in the KJV. Only God may be worshipped. The other translations omit the verses, or say " bowed down".

Verses on Salvation by Faith and the Atonement:

We know all have sinned and the wages of sin is death, and Romans 5:8 says, "But God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
I John 1:7 says, "...and the blood of Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." Notice, Man did not earn his salvation. TItus 3:5 says, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us." And it was the blood of Christ that paid for our sins.

I Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.
RSV"Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. This makes salvation by works. Also, it does not tell you what the spiritual milk is, is it chocolate milk? Yum. No its the milk of the word. Salvation is a free gift according to Romans chapter 5. It is impossible to "grow up to it".

Acts16:31 says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." We are saved by believing in Christ.
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
(King James Bible, John)
3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
(NAS)
Here they change from believing to obeying, which is works. Salvation is obtained by believing, works being an evidence.
6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
(King James Bible, John)
6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."
(NAS)
Believes what? the airplane in the sky? The Late, Late Show? The Mickey Mouse Club? Gilligans Island? The demons? They leave out what to believe in...Jesus said, "He that believeth ON ME."
9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.
(King James Bible, Zechariah)
RSV, basically the same, but leaves out "and having salvation".
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(King James Bible, Colossians)
1:14 In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
(NAS)
Leaves out "through his blood". The blood of Jesus Christ is the most important part, of course Satan wants that left out.

OOPS, still working on this, but accidentally posted early. More to come. Hang on. Lol!

Joeboonda
 

NoName

Member
joeboonda said:
I do listen to the arguments, I do figure why they are wrong, I do not lie, I do look into the other side's evidence, I am a man, I do know my beliefs, and I know why I am right. Why don't you research what we are debating and join in?

Thanks,

Joeboonda
I have researced it. That's why I think your position is an exceptionally weak one. :rolleyes: They other stuff I've commented on are in the "abrahamic-mormons" thread, in case you're interested . . .
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
So, Joe, how do you know that the KJV is the version approved by God? I mean, I personally use that version, but when was it translated? 1611 or something like that? How do you know the men who translated it were inspired? How do you know they were worthy to be guided by the Holy Ghost? Just curious.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
joeboonda said:
Ok, there are hundreds of verses, I will put a few anyway:

Here are some on the Deity of Christ:

3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(King James Bible, 1 Timothy)
3:16 And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
(NAS, 1 Timothy)

Notice the changes, the Bible says, "God was manifest in the flesh." they change it to "He who was revealed in the flesh." By changing God to He they take out the fact that Jesus is God.
3:16 It is quite true that the way to live a godly lif is not an easy matter. But hte answer lies in Christ, who came to earth as a man, was proved spotless and pure in his Spirit, was served by angels, was preached among the nations, was accepted by men everywhere, and was received up again to his glory in heaven.
(Living Bible 1 Timothy)

Notice the changes, all in one verse:
1. It leaves out that Jesus is God.
2. "It is quite true" is the opposite of "without controversy".
3. A "mystery" has nothing to do with not being an "easy matter".
4. The Bible says..."preached unto the Gentiles" NOT "accepted by men everywhere".
Jesus was not accepted of men everywhere, Isaiah 53:3 says, "He is despised and
rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief..."
5. Completely leaves out "seen of angels".
6. Adds "in heaven" and "again".

Romans 14:10b, 12 KJV "For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of CHRIST...So then every one of us shall give account of himself to GOD."

NAS "For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of GOD...So then each one of us shall give account of himself to GOD."

Do you see that? Do you SEE that? Do you see THAT? Just one small word is changed, yet, There is no proof that Jesus is God in these verses!

20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(King James Bible, Acts)
RSV Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.
In the KJV, God's church was purchased by God's blood, Therefore, Christ is God, as it was Christ who shed His blood. The RSV separates Christ from God, proving nothing. Pretty tricky.

2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
(King James Bible, Hebrews)
RSV For both he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all one origin...

The RSV adds "origin". Christ did not have an origin. Psalm 90:2 says, "even from everlasting to everlasting tou art God." By saying Christ had the same origin as man, they are saying Christ was a created being.

There are many verses of people worshipping Christ in the KJV. Only God may be worshipped. The other translations omit the verses, or say " bowed down".

Verses on Salvation by Faith and the Atonement:

We know all have sinned and the wages of sin is death, and Romans 5:8 says, "But God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
I John 1:7 says, "...and the blood of Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." Notice, Man did not earn his salvation. TItus 3:5 says, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us." And it was the blood of Christ that paid for our sins.

I Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.
RSV"Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. This makes salvation by works. Also, it does not tell you what the spiritual milk is, is it chocolate milk? Yum. No its the milk of the word. Salvation is a free gift according to Romans chapter 5. It is impossible to "grow up to it".

Acts16:31 says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." We are saved by believing in Christ.
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
(King James Bible, John)
3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
(NAS)
Here they change from believing to obeying, which is works. Salvation is obtained by believing, works being an evidence.
6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
(King James Bible, John)
6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."
(NAS)
Believes what? the airplane in the sky? The Late, Late Show? The Mickey Mouse Club? Gilligans Island? The demons? They leave out what to believe in...Jesus said, "He that believeth ON ME."
9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.
(King James Bible, Zechariah)
RSV, basically the same, but leaves out "and having salvation".
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(King James Bible, Colossians)
1:14 In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
(NAS)
Leaves out "through his blood". The blood of Jesus Christ is the most important part, of course Satan wants that left out.

OOPS, still working on this, but accidentally posted early. More to come. Hang on. Lol!

Joeboonda
Whoa, this is the first time I've encountered this thread(I think), on this argument. I didn't quite catch what you were so angry or frustrated about, is it the footnotes in our version of the KJV?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NoName said:
I have researced it. That's why I think your position is an exceptionally weak one. :rolleyes: They other stuff I've commented on are in the "abrahamic-mormons" thread, in case you're interested . . .
Yeah, and I haven't seen you there lately. I seriously look forward to your questions. They're always so thought-provoking and make me do some research.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
The Bible is very important, we need it and must use it as our final authority, for it is truly God's word for us.
God is my final authority. I will never put belief in a book above belief in God.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
joeboonda said:
I do listen to the arguments, I do figure why they are wrong, I do not lie, I do look into the other side's evidence, I am a man, I do know my beliefs, and I know why I am right. Why don't you research what we are debating and join in?

Thanks,

Joeboonda
Is your goal to learn about and understand our beliefs or convince us that we are wrong?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Ok, continuing where I left off, sry.

4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
(King James Bible, 1 Peter)

4:1 THerefore since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm youselves also with the same purpose.
(NAS)

LEAVES OUT that Christ suffered FOR US.

How about the resurrection, some translations put brackets around many verses with a footnote that they were "probably not" in the original texts. Very misleading. Out of 620 ancient manuscripts of the book of Mark, the 12 verses on the resurrection (Mark 16:9-20) were found in 618 of them. To say they were "probably not in the original mms" is ridiculous.

24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
(King James Bible, Luke)
24:6 Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,"
(RSV)
DId you see that? No cause its not there! They left out..."He is not here, but is risen."

2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(King James Bible, Titus)
2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
(NASB)
Here they change it from the 'glorious appearing' to the 'appearing of the glory'. What kind of 'glory' are we supposed to look for? Its dangerous to look for a glory. the antichrist will probably look like a glory.

What about verses about the Word of God?

2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
(King James Bible, 1 Peter)
2:2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that you may grow up to salvation.
(RSV)
Used this before, but what is the spiritual milk? WHO KNOWS? The new Christian that reads this verse would not know from the RSV what he should desire to help him grow. By taking the Word of God out of this verse, Satan hopis to starve newborn Christians.

4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
(King James Bible, Luke)
4:4 And Jesus answered him, "It is written, man shall not live on bread alone."
(NAS)
It leaves out..."but by every word of God" ! That's the most important part. 2 Tim. 3:16 says, "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable..." In the footnote of the NASB they say, " or every scripture inspired by God is also profitable...", implying that there are Scriptures that are NOT given by inspiratiion of God.

2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
(King James Bible, 1 Thessalonians)
In the NAS, kthey change the "word of God" to the "word of God's message". Instead of the actual word of God it is just God's message. That is very important, if we cant trust the Bible as the Word of God, then we don't have any final standard in which we can trust.

Ok, how about the Virgin BIrth...

7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(King James Bible, Isaiah)
7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold a young woman shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel.
(RSV)
7:14 Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him 'Immanuel.
(Good News Bible)

Ok, the sign, or miracle, is that a VIRGIN would conceive. A young woman conceiving or who is pregnant happens, oh, every day, I suppose.

1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

Of course to deny the Virgin Birth says Christ is an illegitimate child since Mary conceived out of wedlock, that she was a fornicator, that God is a liar in Matt 1:22-23, that Christ was not God since if he had a physical father then he was human like us, andthat Christ was a sinner since he would have had to have a physical father as Romans 5:12 says, ..."Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned..."

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(KJV)
Luke 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, How shall this be, since I have no husband?
(RSV)
How dumb do they think we are? Do women ever have children without having husbands? Of course they do! God was declaring that Mary was a virgin. The RSV tries to cover up this fact.

Luke 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
(KJV)
Luke 2:33 And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about him.
(NAS)
God was careful to make it clear that Joseph was not Jesus' father, when they call Joseph his father they deny the virgin birth of Christ, although Mary calls Joseph his father in v 48, we are not saying Mary's word was perfect, but God's Word is perfect.

Should I compare the Living Bible? Ok, just a few, I'm tired.

9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
(King James Bible, John)
9:34 "You illegitimate____________, you!",they shouted. "Are you trying to teach us?" And they threw him out.
(Living Bible)
20:30 THen Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman..."
(KJV)
20:30 Saul boiled with rage, 'You son of a _____!" he yelled at him.
(Living Bible)
2 Cor. 2:17 says, "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God." God's Word does not use dirty slang, this is perverting and corrupting God's word. I don't want my children to read this, calling it an 'adult' bible is a flimsy excuse, no one should read dirty language. Now I am getting tired, by I Kings 18:27 they change 'pursuing' to 'out sitting on a toilet', now you may look it up, but its there. In Psalm 34:20 where it says "He keepeth all his bones; not one of them is broken", The Living Bible says "God even protects him from accidents". There is no prophecy left in that. In Zecharia 13:6-7 they changed, "wound in thine hands" to "scars on your back", and "I was wounded in the house of my friends", to "I got into a brawl at the home of a friend". Did Christ get into a drunken brawl? That is blasphemy to me.

Ok, well, I have not even hit the NIV, but I have a whole book on it. I gotta go, maybe more later. There are hundreds of omissions in the other versions as well. Perhaps others don't see these the way I do, but I believe Satan is using his first lie from the Garden of Eden when he said, "Yea, hath God said?" Something to look into....there are some great books at your local Christian Bookstore.

Peace Out!

Joeboonda
God was careful to make it
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
NoName said:
I have researced it. That's why I think your position is an exceptionally weak one. :rolleyes: They other stuff I've commented on are in the "abrahamic-mormons" thread, in case you're interested . . .
Thanks for your opinion on my 'weak' position, duly ignored. Instead of criticizing my 'position' why not add to the discussion?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
So, Joe, how do you know that the KJV is the version approved by God? I mean, I personally use that version, but when was it translated? 1611 or something like that? How do you know the men who translated it were inspired? How do you know they were worthy to be guided by the Holy Ghost? Just curious.
I know because I have studied it, how do you know?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
beckysoup61 said:
Whoa, this is the first time I've encountered this thread(I think), on this argument. I didn't quite catch what you were so angry or frustrated about, is it the footnotes in our version of the KJV?
Not angry or frustrated about a thing. We just discussing the different versions a bit.
 
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