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More love directed at the Mormons!

Discussion in 'Latter-day Saints DIR' started by Katzpur, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Joe,

    First off, why the huge typeface? Are we now blind, in addition to being delusionary?

    Second, see my post #200 above.

    Third, if you're going to continue to get your information off anti-Mormon websites, you're going to continue to get it wrong. I don't know how many times we need to remind you of this.



    See, this is the kind of thing I object to. This answer isn't "according to the LDS Church" at all. It's according to someone who hates the LDS Church and is doing his best to misrepresent our beliefs. Why is this, Joe? Why do you think these people can't let us explain our own beliefs? Why do they somehow think they can do a better job of it than we can? Do you know that you can look all over the internet and not find one LDS Church sponsored website dedicated to "exposing the truth" about other Christians' beliefs? Go to my Church's official website and see if you can find anything at all to imply that we believe "MAN CAME FIRST."

    Kathryn
     
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  2. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    HI, excuse the big typing, its just how it copied. I understand what you say, that we will be like God someday, what all that entails is a mystery. But, as bluntly put as he said it, it is still true that you believe God was once a man that then became God. As much as you try to explain it, I cannot accept that. Let me put a more detailed explanation on the subject, then I will leave it alone.

    Joeboonda
     
  3. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    The concept that God was once like Man is now is not even something taught. I think it was more of a philosophical comment than a religious teaching and it has nothing to do with our own salvation. A belief in this concept is not necessary, it never gets brought up, and yet anti-Mormons flock to this teaching to label us as un-Christian.
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Okay, let me do my best to clarify this. The belief that man can progress eternally and become "like God" is official LDS doctrine. It can be found in our "Standard Works."

    The belief that God was once a man is accepted by many Latter-day Saints. It is not, however, "official doctrine." There is nowhere in the LDS canon where this is clearly stated. I would say that it is more a logical extention of the doctrine that God has given man the potential to become as He is. In other words, if God has given man the potential to become "godlike," it's reasonable to assume that God was once a man with that same potential, who actually reached it.

    But as nutshell pointed out, this really is not a core belief of our faith. I have attended LDS worship services almost weekly for my entire life, and I have NEVER, EVER heard a sermon (we call them "talks") or a lesson on God having been a man. Doesn't that sort of indicate to you that this one teeny tiny point (which is, again, not official doctrine) is being blown way, way out of perspective by people who want you to think it's something we actually teach?
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Joe,

    Yes, God evidently loved us more than we can even begin to comprehend. I'm so grateful for this gift, too. Merry Christmas to you, too.

    Kathryn
     
  6. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Ok, this is a 3 part post, with one from nutshell between part 2 and 3, lol



    Is the God of Mormonism the God of the Bible?

    A Comparison of the Mormon god with the God of the Bible
    that proves they are not the same and that
    Mormons are not a Christians.
    By Cooper Abrams (Numbers in brackets are references for the material and are listed at the end of this article)



    According the Mormonism their "Heavenly Father" was once an man of "mortal flesh."

    (1) Joseph Smith said that "First God Himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret. . .I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. . . God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, . . .You have go to learn how to be gods yourselves; . . .No man can learn you more than what I have told you."

    (2) Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt stated, "The Gods who dwell in Heaven. . .have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state . . . . they were exalted also, from Fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their heaven forever and ever."

    (3) Pratt further stated that, "We (men on earth) were begotten by our father in heaven: the person of our Father in Heaven we begotten on a previous heavenly world by his father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient father; and so on."

    (4) Brigham Young stated the purpose of the LDS god, "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming God like himself; We are created . . . to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven."

    (5) Being true to his church's teaching, Milton Hunter concluded that, " . . .we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today."

    (6) The LDS Scriptures teach that God is a man of flesh and bones: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."



    From these statements made by the founders and leaders of Mormonism we can see that they believe in a plurality of gods in the Universe. Their god is only one of an unnumerial number of gods in the Universe and is an exalted man who became a god of flesh and bone who was given charge of this world. However, they do not worship a plurality of gods, only worshiping or being responsible to the god of earth who is literally their "Heavenly Father" meaning they are his sexually produced off-spring. In fact all angels, Jesus, Lucifer and all men are the sexually produced children of their god in heaven.

    The god of Mormonism is a man who began his existence as something they call an "intelligence." This being they refer to as an "intelligence" did not have a body but existed as simply pure intelligence. However, on another planet out in the universe a god (not the god of earth) and one of his wives had a spirit child and this intelligence was given a spirit body. Next he lived as a spirit child in the heaven of his father and mother god in a heavenly family until he was allowed to come to his father god's planet and get a human body when a human couple had a child. This now human child grew up on that planet. He was a sinner, but was redeemed by being faithful to the gospel of his father god and lived a good life doing good works. He afterwards died and was resurrected to what the Mormons call the Celestial heaven. In the Celestial heaven of Mormonism this once man was declared to be "worthy" of becoming a god himself. He was appointed to the be god of earth by a counsel of gods that live near the center of the universe near a star called Kolob. This man who is still a man, but now becomes a god of "flesh and bones" and comes to the earth and begins to produce children with his many wives and thereby populates the earth. The LDS god then is a god of flesh and bones, who grew up on another planet in the universe and who now lives in the heaven of this earth having children with his many wives. All people on earth were once the spirit children of the man-become-god and if they are faithful to the Mormon gospel they too can one day become a god or goddess.

    The Mormon god therefore began as an "intelligence" somewhere out in the Universe the same way they teach all men begin. He then became a "spirit" person in the heaven of some world out in the Universe when he was born as a "spirit" baby to the exalted man-become-god of that world. Thus there was a time in his earlier life that the Mormon god was not a god but a mortal sinful man who continued the process of "eternal progression" (going from an intelligence to a god). As a "human" person he received a physical body when his human parents gave birth to a child. After living a "worthy" life of many good works in his physical life, he died, was resurrected and went to the Celestial heaven where he was exalted to godhood.

    Near center of the universe near the planet Kolob, where the counsel of the gods of the Universe meet, he was recognized for his good works during his life and was assigned be the god of the earth. Thus, this exalted man-become-god came to earth with his many wives and began to produce "spirit" babies by the sexual relations in heaven and he populated the earth and all the people on earth are his children. As stated earlier he with his many wives produced the angels, Jesus, Lucifer, and all the people who are on the earth first in heaven as his "spirit children." Thus the LDS god is the literal father of all people on earth because all people pre-existed in heaven where they were sexually conceived by their man-god of flesh and bone. When they call him "Heavenly Father" they mean more than being God. He is their physical father as well. This means that men are the brothers of angels, Jesus and Lucifer.

    When one makes a comparison of the Mormon god with the God of the Bible you find that this god is totally different from the God who revealed Himself to man in the Bible. Although a comparison between the LDS god and the God of the Bible can be made on many levels I wish to focus only on one irreconcilable difference. This is one fact about the Mormon "Heavenly Father" that the LDS church cannot deny. Although, the Book of Mormon and LDS literature says that their god is the Creator; the Mormon, according to their own teachings god cannot be the Creator of the earth and certainly cannot be the Creator of the Universe. [ Click here to read an article titled, THE FATAL FLAW IN THE MORMON CHURCH'S TEACHING CONCERNING THEIR GOD]

    First, the LDS god is only one of many gods existing in the Universe</U>.

    Second, when the LDS god became a god the Universe already existed!

    In fact, the LDS church teaches that there existed many gods in the Universe before their present god came on the scene. Further, they believe new gods are being made today from the ranks of the LDS faithful. The LDS teaching presents their god as the offspring of a father god that existed before he did and his father had a father also. (see the above quotes) Even a superficial reading of LDS material on this matter shows, that according to Mormon doctrine, the Universe existed before the Mormon god of this earth was even was born. Biblical Christians emphatically insist that Mormons are not Christians, because they do not worship the God or Jesus Christ of the Bible. The irrefutable proof of this fact is found by comparing the Mormon man-become-god with the God of the Bible who is the Creator of the Earth and the Universe.

     
  7. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    The God of the Bible is the Creator of the Earth and the Universe. Note the following Bible references that state that the true God is the Creator of the Universe.



    • Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
      Genesis 1:16, "And God made two great lights; the greater to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also." (see Job. 9-4-8, Psa. 8:3, Psa. 136-7-9, Psa. 147:4, Jer. 31:35 )
      Exodus 20:11, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."
      Nehemiah 9:6, "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee."
      Job 12:9, "Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?"
      Job 26:7, "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing."
      Psalm 24:2, "For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods."
      Psalm 33:6, "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth."
      Psalm 95:5, "The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land."
      Psalm 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
      Psalms 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
      Isaiah 40:28, "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding."
      Isaiah 45:12 , "I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."
      Isaiah 48:13, "Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together."
      Acts 4:24, "And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:"
      Acts 7:50, "Hath not my hand made all these things?"
      Acts 14:15, "And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:"
    The Bible teaches that God is the Creator of the Earth and the Heavens. The Mormon man-become-god could not have been the Creator because he became a god in the Universe after the Universe was created. The Mormon "Heavenly Father" is himself a created being and was born into a world that already existed. It is interesting to note that Mormonism is like the teaching of evolution in that neither of them has a beginning. Milton R. Hunter,a member of the First Council of the Seventy, explains how their god became a god:


    • "We accept the fact that God is the Supreme Intelligent Being in the universe. (Please note that Hunter calls the LDS god the "Supreme intelligent Being in the UNIVERSE") He has the greatest knowledge, the most perfect will, and the most infinite power of any person within the realm of our understanding." "Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhood? In the first place. Eons ago God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed it. From day to day He exerted His will vigorously, and as a result became thoroughly acquainted with the forces lying about Him. As he gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete. Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became God by absolute obedience to all the eternal laws of the Gospel by conforming His actions to all truth, and thereby became the author of eternal truth. Therefore, the road that the Eternal Father followed to Godhood was one of living at all times a dynamic, industrious, and completely righteous live. There is no other way to exaltation."

      He further said in the Chapter "How Men May Become Gods": "Thus all men who ascend to the glorious status of Godhood can do so only by one method-by obedience to all the principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If to obtain eternal life means to enjoy the same type of life that God lives and to experience similar experiences, then those people who receive it to the fullest degree shall actually be Gods." (The Gospel Through The Ages, pp. 114-117)
    How do we know about God?

    God gave us the Bible to tell us about Himself. It is God's revelation to man. There are two kinds of revelation; natural and special. Natural revelation deals with examining the physical world and seeing the order and design of it we must conclude that there was a Designer or Creator. Natural revelation gives us some incites into who God is but it is not specific. We look at nature, see His creative handiwork , and know He is there, but do not know who He is. Special revelation is what God specifically reveals to us about himself from the Bible. It tells us a great deal about Him.



    My purpose is to examine what God reveals to us about Himself from the Bible. I would challenge Mormons to compare their man-become-god with the God of the Bible. The heart of Mormonism is that they are seeking through their good deeds, temple works and faithfulness to the LDS church to reach the Celestial heaven where they will be exalted and become gods. The truth is their god does not exist and the teachings of the LDS church are a false gospel.

    Even a casual comparison of the Mormon god with the God of the Bible reveals that they are not the same. The Mormon god was and is a man of flesh and bones and cannot be compared on any level with the God of the Bible.
     
  8. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    Joe, did you really just copy and paste info. from an anti-Mormon website yet again???

    When are you going to get it, man? We don't teach this stuff, it's taken out of context, it's slanted, and most of it is flat out wrong. Why don't you think for yourself instead of relying on what the Internet can show you?

    Until you grow up, think for yourself, and actually attempt to have a discussion, I will not dignify your anti-Mormon website cut and pastings with a response.
     
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  9. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    The God of the Bible is Spirit

    The Bible says God is spirit. In John 4:24 the Bible says, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." God has substance but not a material substance and He is not a man nor ever was a man. John 4:24, defines God's substance as being spiritual. When Jesus appeared after His resurrection he explained to his disciples in Luke 24:39, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." God then is spirit and is not a material being. There are many expressions in the Bible which refer to God as having the body parts of a man, but these are all hyperboles and symbolic statements. For example, God is said to be a burning fire, an eagle, and other symbols which relate to his actions and not to his material essence.



    The God of the Bible is Invisible.

    The Bible says that God is invisible. Deut. 4:1-19, says that at Horeb God appeared to Israel. God reminds them that they did not see any form of God, but only heard His voice. God commands them not to corrupt themselves by making any image of Him referring to Him as either male of female, or after the likeness of any animal or after the sun, moon and stars. Isaiah 40:18 states the same truth, "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?" God does not have gender as material men and women do. John 1:18, says that "No man hath seen God" In Romans 1:20, Col. 1;15, 1 Tim. 1:17, Paul refers to God as being invisible. 1 Timothy 6:16, says, "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen." Thus the Bible is clear in teaching that God being a spirit is invisible and cannot be seen my material men.



    The Bible does say however in some passages that men did see God. Is this a contradiction? The answer is no. God appeared to men in physical form so that men could see him, but they did not see God in his true essence, but saw only a reflection or manifestation of God. John 1:32, says that Spirit can be manifested in visible form. In Genesis 16:7-14, the Bible says the angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar. This is referred to as a "theophany" which means an appearance of God in human form. Exodus 3:1f says that the angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush (Ex. 3:2). Thus, the flame Moses saw in the midst of the bush revealed God's presence, but not His true essence. The flame Moses saw did not represent what God looks like anymore that when God appeared as a man. God used these forms so as to appear to men in some visible form they could see.

    [size=+1]The God of the Bible is the Self-Existing God.[/size]

    The Bible says that God is Self existing. Man's existence comes from God who is life and the giver of all life. Man exists because of God's power. God "breathed" life into man and he became a living soul. God's existence is not dependent on outside forces. This is the meaning of God's statement about Himself in Exodus 3:14, "I am that I am." God is not created, but the Creator and called the eternal God, "From everlasting to everlasting thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). He is Self existing and does not exist because of some outside power. He is a power unto Himself. This is better understood by the next statement about God.

    The God of the Bible had no Beginning and is Eternal.

    The Bible says God is eternal. Genesis 21:33, says He is the "Eternal God." This means that God is not subject to time as are material men in a physical world. God created time when He made the heavens and the Earth (Gen. 1:1-2, Heb. 1:2, 11:3). Psalm 102:27, says "thou art the same, and thy years have no end" (see Heb. 13:18, James 1:17). God created time and space and exists beyond them, and is not subject to either.



    The God of the Bible is Infinite.

    The Bible says God is infinite. This refers to God in relation to space. God created the vastness of the space of the Universe and thus God must be greater that His Creation. Being infinite God is not limited to space in a material Universe. Note how the following passages present this truth: 1 Kings 8:27, "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" 2 Chron. 2:6, "But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?" Jeremiah 23:24, "Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD." Isaiah 66:1, "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"

    The God of the Bible is the Only God that Exists.

    The Bible says God is the Only God. Note, what the Bible says about God in the following Scriptures: Deut. 4:35, "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him." Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 43:10, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." These verses teach that God is the only God and not other gods exist in the Universe that He created. The Bible clearly reveals that there in only one God and He is the Creator of the Earth and the Universe. The Mormon god is not a creator. Although he is said in LDS literature to be the creator of human beings on earth, Mormon literature says that he with his wives "produce," not create, children through sexual relations in heaven. The people on earth already existed as a "intelligence" out in the Universe and later became "spirits in heaven." The LDS god only gave these intelligence's spirit bodies and set them on the road to "eternal progression" in which worthy Mormons can eventually become gods.



    The god of Mormonism, as the LDS church literature presents him, is certainly not the God of the Bible. I would urge the LDS people to read the Bible, God's revelation to man and see for themselves who is the real God. Further I would implore them to believe God's word and believe in God and receive His Son the real Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior and thus be forgiven of their sins and receive eternal life.

    "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
    • References:



      (1) Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, V7, page 333.
      (2) Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, pages 613-614.
      (3) Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 23.
      (4) Ibid., page 132.
      (5) Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, page 93.
      (6) Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, Salt Lake City, 1958, p.104.
     
  10. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    Joe, did you really just copy and paste info. from an anti-Mormon website yet again???

    When are you going to get it, man? We don't teach this stuff, it's taken out of context, it's slanted, and most of it is flat out wrong. Why don't you think for yourself instead of relying on what the Internet can show you?

    Until you grow up, think for yourself, and actually attempt to have a discussion, I will not dignify your anti-Mormon website cut and pastings with a response.

    This is a Latter-day Saint forum. If you want to debate this go somewhere else. I think we're all tired of listening to you regurgitate someone else's BS. See ya around, Joe.
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Joe,

    Does every single thing we say just go in one ear and out the other with you? Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder what your problem is. Like nutshell, I'm through even trying to respond to this cut-and-paste anti-Mormon crap. Keep it up if you want, but expect no further answers from me if this is the best you can do.

    Kathryn
     
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  12. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Believe me I carefully read and re-read everything I copy, I do not like the word anti-Mormon, it is a Bible-believing site. Read it, it has the quotes of your founders. I do think for myself, using the internet to relay information is the most efficient way for me to do it. I am sorry you feel the way you do, I am a 'grown up' and I do think for myself, what about you? Or do you just go along with everything your church tells you? I am trying to show you the truth, but you won't even consider it. Sorry you feel that way, sorry you are so defensive and angry. Didn't mean for that to be.

    Sincerely,

    Joeboonda
     
  13. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Anti-Mormon crap, ok, whatever. Did you even carefully study it, or pray about it? Or do you too, accept everything the Mormon Church tells you? Guess there is no chance they could ever be wrong about anything, huh? Well, I think they are wrong about a lot of things, and I am trying to show you what, but you refuse to even read the things I show you. Ok, nothing I can do here. That's too bad. Merry Christmas anyway.

    Sincerely,

    Joeboonda
     
  14. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    You carefully read and re-read everything you copy, but apparently you don't read at all the responses you get from LDS posters.

    The sites you copy are not biblical, they are anti-Mormon. Biblical sites teach of the Bible, anti-Mormon sites attempt to tear the church down.

    You know nothing about me. My testimony is the result of my own study, ponderings, and communications (prayer) with God.

    If I appear defensive or angry it is because you refuse to acknowledge the posts made by LDS members of this forum and continue cutting and pasting more junk rather than attempting to have a productive dialog.
     
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Of course, I did.

    I was taught from my childhood to question everything and to learn the truth for myself.

    If you want to show me where LDS doctrine is flawed, why don't you start by learning what LDS doctrine really is? That's my whole point, Joe, and you just don't seem to get it. We do not believe the things you are accusing us of believing. What part of that don't you understand? :areyoucra
     
  16. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Ok, well I have attempted to answer all the questions and engage in dialogue all I can. Sorry you feel that way, I will be back another time with more questions and information that I would like responses on, so you may have a chance to clear up my misconceptions of your faith, and so I can share my beliefs with you, too. Ok, I am off for now. Have a Merry Christmas, and, no hard feelings, ok?

    Sincerely,

    Joeboonda
     
  17. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Instead of copying and pasting this crap into the forums, why don't you just link to is as requested in the forum rules...unless you're trying to pretend that its your own thoughts. If it is, how long have you been writing for bible-truth . org?
     
  18. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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  19. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I just noticed that you did respond. The Book of Mormon is a record of a group of people who left Israel in 600 BC. It was revealed to Joseph Smith in the 1800s.
     
  20. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Christians who critisize this teaching seem to forget that they also believe that God was once a man...his name was Jesus Christ.
     
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