Morality Without The Bible and Homosexuality

[leov]

You have heard of birth control, right? That's used when heterosexual couples want to have sex because it's fun and feels good, without procreating.

I have no comment about this side, Homosex. is not what Natural Law prescribed - that was my comment on OP.

 

[leov]

This does not matter a bit. It is about what can happen in nature, and what does happen to some people's modes of attraction IN NATURE. If we were all homosexual, there'd be a problem since we are a sexually-reproducing species... but WE'RE NOT ALL HOMOSEXUAL, so this isn't really a valid gripe with homosexuality. It doesn't hold water, and it isn't a problem. Is it? Is it really a problem we're facing right now? That "too many people" are homosexual? Come on now... is it? Will you even answer that question, or answer it honestly?

IS IT CURRENTLY A PROBLEM THAT TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE HOMOSEXUAL, AND ARE WE FACING THIS "EXTINCTION" YOU SEEM SO CONCERNED ABOUT?

Be honest with yourself. If the above were truly your concern, then you would ALSO HAVE TO BE CHASTISING ANY PEOPLE WHO PURPOSEFULLY DECIDED NOT TO HAVE KIDS.

Homosex. is promoted now.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ah. I understand and I agree.

But you also should not negate something purely because a religion condemns it. everything that a religion condemns may not be a violation of human rights or something of the sort. Maybe it has a truth that you and I don't see.

Thats just a general comment.

Does sexual promiquity have reason to be wrong scripture assuming marriage isn't an issue?

If it doesn't harm others,not abuse, doesn't harm self, is the justification only cause God says so or is there another reason understood like murder?

If SP is only a religious law, why is it beside murder and theft?

 

[Jainarayan]

I have no comment about this side,

You should. Birth control violates this "natural law" as much as homosexual sex does.

Homosex. is not what Natural Law prescribed - that was my comment on OP.

Again, where is this "natural law" written and prescribed?

 

[leov]

You should. Birth control violates this "natural law" as much as homosexual sex does.



Again, where is this "natural law" written and prescribed?

Not the law, humans just prevent pregnancy which comes about in a natural law way, that is human adaptation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My question is.

Sexual promiquity is wrong in scripture. Excluding marriage for a moment, is there a reason why if it's not harming others, oneself, abuse, and rape?

That, and why is SP along side rape and murder?

I get it's wrong but what is the connection between sexual "sin" (not abuse, rape, etc) and murder?

 

[leov]

No.

The commonalities, are in fact all the properties that defines what an animal is.
Just like the commonalities with other mammals is what makes us mammals.


It is impossible to come up with a definition of "animal" that includes all animals, yet excludes humans.

Because we ARE animals.
Just like we ARE multi-cellular eukaryotes.
Just like we ARE vertebrates.
And mammals.
And primates.

Except we have advanced consciousness of creator.

 

[columbus]

I have no comment about this side, Homosex. is not what Natural Law prescribed - that was my comment on OP.

But you've never explained what you mean by "natural law".

Frankly, I think it's generally a concoction by religionists to make their personal opinions appear more objective than they are.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Except we have advanced consciousness of creator.

Which is why the onus is on you to explain why homosexuality is a problem.
Tom

 

[leov]

Animal - Biology-Online Dictionary | Biology-Online Dictionary

Any of the eukaryotic multicellular organisms of the biological kingdom Animalia that are generally characterized to be heterotrophic, motile, having specialized sensory organs, lacking cell wall, and growing from a blastula during embryonic development

No, as a human being, you are most definatly an animal.

Let science to figure

Then don't do it. Simple as that.

Unless I tell you or show you a video, do you ever know how and when I have sex?

Exactly, you don't. That's how much it affects anyone else.

I does for me, what else matter?

Which is why the onus is on you to explain why homosexuality is a problem.
Tom

Things came about in a certain way. I did not say h. is a problem, only if it is pushed in people's face.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Well. I don't really understand your post.

But I can clearly say that the Bible vehemently condemns homosexuality. Homosexuals are put together with drunkards, thieves, the effeminate or malakoi, all are condemned.

Thus, the bible is pure evil, and is an immoral book. Good! Are we learning yet?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It is aberration of natural laws.

What is a "natural law" and who gets to declare them? You?

Did you know that pretty much all mammal species (and many birds) have examples of homosexual behaviors?

That sounds pretty natural to me... !

 

[shmogie]

There are a lot of topics and I don't want to be here for an hour, so I will be brief.



There are exceptions to "killing is wrong" as many will agree; but the bottom line is that killing others takes something from them that is not ours to take. It hurts people.



Stealing is wrong because it is ultimately dishonest and takes something from another that is not yours to take. It hurts people.



Children need guidance of those older and wiser. Children need adult supervision for their survival. Children need to be taught the rules of society so that they can exist within those rules and have a good life.



Bearing false witness ruins another person's reputation and life. It hurts people.



Sexual abuse is wrong because it hurts people.



Where polygamy is practiced, there is a direct correlation to misogyny and denial of women's rights. There seems to be a correlation here that is difficult to ignore. I value "informed consent" so it can be successfully argued that if all members were consensual to this arrangement, another has no right to tell them they can't live this way. I'd like to subscribe to that idea, but not until there is a way to unlink the link so explained.



Fidelity and faithfulness builds trust and happy, healthy marriages. People in these arrangements tend to be happier.



IN short, if everyone pursued these values, the world would be a better place.



It hurts people and other living creatures.

I find it curious that the moral outrage against homosexuality can not be explained without invoking religion, yet so many still insist it is immoral.

I know atheists who regard the practice as filthy and reprehensible, immoral.

Without a standard of morality commonly agreed to, the idea of morality becomes irrelevant. It is purely an individual evaluation, for the individual, with no bearing on society as a whole. Morality becomes a very weak consideration regarding behavior, in fact, society becomes more and more amoral.

Consider abortion, as an example. Once considered wrong and immoral at any stage during a pregnancy, it became morally acceptable in the early stages, then at anytime between conception and complete birth, and now many, including the governor of one state, support infanticide.

Moral and immoral are becoming, for society as a whole, meaningless terms. The new reality of self gratification and individual morality has taken us down the rabbit hole where up is down, blue is red, and left is right, or not.

So, you propose that using an organ designed or evolved to expel waste from the body in a sexual way is not immoral without a religious perspective to it. So what ?

Is it immoral to eat ground glass ? Why ?

We who accept Christian morality hold to the immorality of a variety of things, lying, gluttony, homosexuality to name a few. Yet we can only judge these things within the boundaries of believers. Believers who voluntarily agree to hold to these moral standards, and are free to leave if the required behavior becomes too rigorous.

We have no responsibility to judge the legal behavior of individuals outside the church, and it is wrong to do so.

What I don´t understand is why some feel compelled to continually beat this dead horse. If you have decided that you will not live by the rules of the New Testament, that is your problem, not mine. It only becomes relevant to me if you are a Church member.

I often wonder if this continual rehashing of homosexuality, or homosexuality v. Christianity/Judaism is a form of reassurance to those who worry about the morality of what they choose, or support.

 

[SomeRandom]

Well. I don't really understand your post.

But I can clearly say that the Bible vehemently condemns homosexuality. Homosexuals are put together with drunkards, thieves, the effeminate or malakoi, all are condemned.

So are shellfish eaters, aren’t they? Either that or everyone has lied to me about the Leviticus verses.
********!

 

[leov]

What is a "natural law" and who gets to declare them? You?

Did you know that pretty much all mammal species (and many birds) have examples of homosexual behaviors?

That sounds pretty natural to me... !

Why not?

 

[SomeRandom]

I know atheists who regard the practice as filthy and reprehensible, immoral.

Without a standard of morality commonly agreed to, the idea of morality becomes irrelevant. It is purely an individual evaluation, for the individual, with no bearing on society as a whole. Morality becomes a very weak consideration regarding behavior, in fact, society becomes more and more amoral.

Consider abortion, as an example. Once considered wrong and immoral at any stage during a pregnancy, it became morally acceptable in the early stages, then at anytime between conception and complete birth, and now many, including the governor of one state, support infanticide.

Moral and immoral are becoming, for society as a whole, meaningless terms. The new reality of self gratification and individual morality has taken us down the rabbit hole where up is down, blue is red, and left is right, or not.

So, you propose that using an organ designed or evolved to expel waste from the body in a sexual way is not immoral without a religious perspective to it. So what ?

Is it immoral to eat ground glass ? Why ?

We who accept Christian morality hold to the immorality of a variety of things, lying, gluttony, homosexuality to name a few. Yet we can only judge these things within the boundaries of believers. Believers who voluntarily agree to hold to these moral standards, and are free to leave if the required behavior becomes too rigorous.

We have no responsibility to judge the legal behavior of individuals outside the church, and it is wrong to do so.

What I don´t understand is why some feel compelled to continually beat this dead horse. If you have decided that you will not live by the rules of the New Testament, that is your problem, not mine. It only becomes relevant to me if you are a Church member.

I often wonder if this continual rehashing of homosexuality, or homosexuality v. Christianity/Judaism is a form of reassurance to those who worry about the morality of what they choose, or support.

Couldn’t you say the same for interracial coupling? Mark of Cain and all that.
Once thought as immoral, even by some atheists. Then accepted by degrees to the point where one dare not voice opposition, lest one is shunned by civilised society.

I find the homophobic arguments are nothing but rehashed interracial arguments. It’s kind of eerie, not going to lie.

I often wonder if the continuing rehashing of the homosexuality vs Christianity is nothing more than society wondering why it was such a-holes to innocent people to begin with and just merely looking for someone to blame for such behaviour.

But that’s just me. Even the scriptures of my traditions are rather optional.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

There is a purpose to that, not just hedonic sex.

Can you explain that, without also including apes (humans)? I doubt that you can...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why not?

Why not what? Who gets to define "natural law" -- your sole objection to homosexuality seems to hinge on that complaint.

But you failed to define "natural law" in any useful way.

 

[shmogie]

Yes but why, considering that given an omnipotent and omniscient god, the only way that homosexuality could exist is because that god willed it.

First, omniscience may very well not be an attribute of God.

So God willed murder, rape, torture, all of it, because it occurs ?

You seem versatile in the scriptures when you choose to be, therefore you know that the entire purpose of the Bible is to bring humanity BACK into harmony with God.

Immoral human behavior IS NOT at the will of God, just the opposite in fact.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

If you stop natural law procreation, what would happen to humanity? If you stop homosexual sex , what would happen to humanity?

What is "natural law procreation" please? Where is this written down?

You DO know that many species practice sex for seemingly random reasons? Look closely at other apes, for some excellent examples of sex for fun/bonding/not-making-babies.

So it would seem that "natural law" clearly allows sex for fun is natural.

As for your StrawMan claim that homosexuals do not reproduce? What dank, dark cave have YOU been living in? Gays have been reproducing since there have BEEN gays-- just because they prefer same-sex sex, does not mean they are incapable of the other sort! Not to mention, there are a variety of non-sex methods of getting a woman pregnant, including sterilized turkey basters, and a suitable sperm donor..