1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Morality Without The Bible and Homosexuality

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by NewGuyOnTheBlock, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. NewGuyOnTheBlock

    NewGuyOnTheBlock Cult Survivor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    1,611
    Ratings:
    +901
    Religion:
    atheist
    In another thread, the topic of homosexuality is being discussed. In the condemnation of homosexuality, I satated:

    To which, @InChrist stated:

    So, I will start this thread.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,102
    Ratings:
    +682
    Well. I don't really understand your post.

    But I can clearly say that the Bible vehemently condemns homosexuality. Homosexuals are put together with drunkards, thieves, the effeminate or malakoi, all are condemned.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. NewGuyOnTheBlock

    NewGuyOnTheBlock Cult Survivor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    1,611
    Ratings:
    +901
    Religion:
    atheist
    There are a lot of topics and I don't want to be here for an hour, so I will be brief.

    There are exceptions to "killing is wrong" as many will agree; but the bottom line is that killing others takes something from them that is not ours to take. It hurts people.

    Stealing is wrong because it is ultimately dishonest and takes something from another that is not yours to take. It hurts people.

    Children need guidance of those older and wiser. Children need adult supervision for their survival. Children need to be taught the rules of society so that they can exist within those rules and have a good life.

    Bearing false witness ruins another person's reputation and life. It hurts people.

    Sexual abuse is wrong because it hurts people.

    Where polygamy is practiced, there is a direct correlation to misogyny and denial of women's rights. There seems to be a correlation here that is difficult to ignore. I value "informed consent" so it can be successfully argued that if all members were consensual to this arrangement, another has no right to tell them they can't live this way. I'd like to subscribe to that idea, but not until there is a way to unlink the link so explained.

    Fidelity and faithfulness builds trust and happy, healthy marriages. People in these arrangements tend to be happier.

    IN short, if everyone pursued these values, the world would be a better place.

    It hurts people and other living creatures.

    I find it curious that the moral outrage against homosexuality can not be explained without invoking religion, yet so many still insist it is immoral.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Like Like x 3
  4. NewGuyOnTheBlock

    NewGuyOnTheBlock Cult Survivor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    1,611
    Ratings:
    +901
    Religion:
    atheist
    The point is, why hold something as immoral and condemn a group of people when the only reason you have to do so is based on religious beliefs? To me, that is absurd.
     
    • Winner Winner x 6
    • Like Like x 1
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,102
    Ratings:
    +682
    Ah. I understand and I agree.

    But you also should not negate something purely because a religion condemns it. everything that a religion condemns may not be a violation of human rights or something of the sort. Maybe it has a truth that you and I don't see.

    Thats just a general comment.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,175
    Ratings:
    +2,274
    Religion:
    Atheist
    The anticipated "response" here, is something like "...but why is it wrong to hurt people?"
    That's usually the response I get from "divine command theory" proponents.


    I tend to simply point out to them that if morality isn't about "rules of conduct" of which the purpose is to increase well-being and decrease avoidable suffering for all sentient beings, then I don't know what they mean when the talk about "morality".
    The really stubborn then tend to come back with "but why is it important to increase well-being and avoid suffering"?

    When you continue to zoom in on their underlying reasoning, it is revealed that in their view, if you remove their God of choice, what is left is nihilism where nothing has meaning, where nothing is of any value or worth and where nothing matters.

    You can't argue with minds like that, which are pretty much indistinguishable from psychopathy / sociopathy.
    They will not see the sense and reasonableness of your posts and arguments, because their idea of "moral behavior" comes down to mere obedience to a perceived authority in some kind of "might makes right" ideology.

    Their foundation for moral reasoning is inherently bankrupt and/or corrupt. Unless they fix that, no sensible discussion on morals can be held with them.


    (btw: I'm not accusing @InChrist is like that... we'll see how he responds)
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    4,763
    Ratings:
    +2,836
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Yes but why, considering that given an omnipotent and omniscient god, the only way that homosexuality could exist is because that god willed it.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,102
    Ratings:
    +682
    Maybe. Could be.

    I don't disagree with homosexuality or its right to exist. You bark up the wrong tree.

    My sentence is again "But you also should not negate something purely because a religion condemns it. everything that a religion condemns may not be a violation of human rights or something of the sort. Maybe it has a truth that you and I don't see. Thats just a general comment."

    You misunderstood it by default.
     
  9. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    2,417
    Ratings:
    +1,138
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    There is nothing wrong with being gay. The Bible is wrong about so many things that being one of them.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,293
    Ratings:
    +460
    Religion:
    christian
    It is aberration of natural laws.
     
  11. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,175
    Ratings:
    +2,274
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Homosexuality occurs with an 11% frequency accross mammalian species.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    4,763
    Ratings:
    +2,836
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was taking what you said to make a point.
     
  13. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,293
    Ratings:
    +460
    Religion:
    christian
    There is a purpose to that, not just hedonic sex.
     
  14. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    4,172
    Ratings:
    +2,635
    Religion:
    ?
    Where are these "natural laws" written so that I can find this part where it states what is natural to occur between any given two human beings? Can you point me to these "laws" and the authority behind them? Seriously. How can I possibly know you are correct if these "laws" are not somehow documented somewhere and backed by authority of evidence or rational lines of thought?

    And if you turn to something like "they are written on your heart," then I hope you don't mind laughter pointed directly at your face.
     
    #14 A Vestigial Mote, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  15. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,293
    Ratings:
    +460
    Religion:
    christian
    If you stop natural law procreation, what would happen to humanity? If you stop homosexual sex , what would happen to humanity?
     
  16. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,175
    Ratings:
    +2,274
    Religion:
    Atheist
    What makes you the same isn't true for humans?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    20,252
    Ratings:
    +12,771
    Religion:
    None
    Cooking, reading, and group prayer are also unnatural.
    So what?
    Tom
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,175
    Ratings:
    +2,274
    Religion:
    Atheist
    (edit: I'm changing my post because it can be summed up rather easily)


    So tell me... what would happen to humanity if all men became priests with a vow of celibacy?




    Whoops!
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 3
  19. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    20,252
    Ratings:
    +12,771
    Religion:
    None
    Nobody is suggesting any such thing.

    But if the 5% or so of humans who are gay have nonprocreative sex, and thereby reduce the population problem a tiny bit, that would be good for all of humanity.
    Tom
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,293
    Ratings:
    +460
    Religion:
    christian
    True if you want to stay in animal level...
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...